Community and Creativity in Gaming

Imbrifer · 06-25-2007, 06:39 PM

I'd like to discuss the experiences people here have with community and creativity in gaming - but in a very specific way.

I was talking with a long-time Neverwinter Nights player today. For those of you who don't know, NWN became the HL2 to the RPG world - in the sense of customizability, modifications, etc. But what has happened is players have left NWN for other games, like NWN2 or Guild Wars. Thus the said community is left as a series of ghost towns built with countless hours of creativity now lost forever.

This same thing happened with HL, and will undoubtably happen with HL2. True, fair numbers of people still play these games, but the communities are mere shadows of what they once were. People move on to new games together (or apart) and the creativity is lost.

It may seem natural, but my qualm is this: Creativity is becoming harder and harder to implement. Ask any mapper for HL2 or NWN2, and you'll find that a quality map takes many times the investment for these sequels than their prequels took. Put these together and you have the erosion of free, community creativity in games. You can't make maps for Guild Wars or increasing numbers of games.

Of course the history of gaming is the history of technological evolution - why play HL when you can play a game where you can see players' muscles move and almost taste the rain when it falls?

But I do not think these two forces have to be opposed. Why not have a game where sequels can be 'plugged in' to the same world the first one occupies? For example, why not make it so HL2 players can play with HL players, and the creativity is not lost on either end? Why not make it so NWN2 players can play in the same worlds and fight monsters along with NWN players? This way, those who follow the technological evolution at the cost of community creativity can, and those who wish to continue to add creativity to gaming can where it is possible?

What are y'alls thoughts on this?

uBeR · 06-25-2007, 06:49 PM

If you want talk to people about uncreativity, talk to the FF dev team.

DarkeN_HellspawN · 06-25-2007, 06:52 PM

There is no money in it. Game companies want to release new games based on something new to have the consumer either upgrade the current game (maps, levels...etc) or to buy a new one. In a perfect world it would be great to play TFC with FF players but if I am on the same page with you the incompatibilties would be two much to try and have game devels try to cross-devel it.

Uber, That is not being very nice. Have you ever been slapped on the nose with a rolled up newspaper b4?

dh

Lost · 06-25-2007, 07:14 PM

Wow, someone has a case of the Munddayys.

zippy · 06-25-2007, 07:30 PM

i need to fart

Innoc · 06-25-2007, 08:00 PM

I think the biggest problem with the modularity you're talking about is the technology push in play. Coding with an eye towards backwards compatibility can ultimately end up yielding unworkable or unstable code due to changes in functionality as the level of sophistication increases.

Ihmhi · 06-25-2007, 09:20 PM

Take note that the Source engine is very scaleable as a form of future proofing... they would not have to make HL3 on a new engine, for instance; it could just be used on the latest iteration of the Source engine.

Moreover, the Source engine can work with computers as old as DirectX 6.0, so I presume it has a lot of backwards compatability capabilities. I do not think we will see Valve developing a new engine for at least the next 15-20 years.

It is progressive thinking like the design behind the Source engine that will keep creativity from being "lost".

Also note that some of the most interesting and popular games are irrespective of their graphics... there are still a Hell of a lot of players playing games like Raganrok Online (something that looks like a SNES game or even a Flash game) and Everquest (whereas Everquest II is already out).

In theory, the "2" of a game COULD just be patched into the new one. The MMORPG that I am developing will essentially remain on the same engine forever and constantly be patched, added on to, changed, etc. If I ever made a "2" for whatever reason, I presume that I would put it on the same engine and integrate it into the same package, possibly even cross-linking the games (much like how WoW treats original WoW and TBC; even if you do not have TBC, you can still interact with Blood Elves, etc.; there are no seperate realms for the different versions like there are with Diablo II).

I am hoping that the loss of creativity you describe will be a thing of the past.

06-25-2007, 06:39 PM	#1
Imbrifer Religious Stamp Machine Retired FF Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Mad City, WI Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Community and Creativity in Gaming I'd like to discuss the experiences people here have with community and creativity in gaming - but in a very specific way. I was talking with a long-time Neverwinter Nights player today. For those of you who don't know, NWN became the HL2 to the RPG world - in the sense of customizability, modifications, etc. But what has happened is players have left NWN for other games, like NWN2 or Guild Wars. Thus the said community is left as a series of ghost towns built with countless hours of creativity now lost forever. This same thing happened with HL, and will undoubtably happen with HL2. True, fair numbers of people still play these games, but the communities are mere shadows of what they once were. People move on to new games together (or apart) and the creativity is lost. It may seem natural, but my qualm is this: Creativity is becoming harder and harder to implement. Ask any mapper for HL2 or NWN2, and you'll find that a quality map takes many times the investment for these sequels than their prequels took. Put these together and you have the erosion of free, community creativity in games. You can't make maps for Guild Wars or increasing numbers of games. Of course the history of gaming is the history of technological evolution - why play HL when you can play a game where you can see players' muscles move and almost taste the rain when it falls? But I do not think these two forces have to be opposed. Why not have a game where sequels can be 'plugged in' to the same world the first one occupies? For example, why not make it so HL2 players can play with HL players, and the creativity is not lost on either end? Why not make it so NWN2 players can play in the same worlds and fight monsters along with NWN players? This way, those who follow the technological evolution at the cost of community creativity can, and those who wish to continue to add creativity to gaming can where it is possible? What are y'alls thoughts on this? __________________ Community Mapper 2morforever, 4play, attrition, gap, fragger and ff_training.

06-25-2007, 06:49 PM	#2
uBeR Not ****** Yet D&A Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Minnesota Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	If you want talk to people about uncreativity, talk to the FF dev team. __________________ OCCUPATION 101. *One would think a simple task would be, well, simple. Maybe not for simpletons.*

06-25-2007, 06:52 PM	#3
DarkeN_HellspawN FORUM ADM!N Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: The Sun Class/Position: O/D D/O - For life or death Gametype: 2fort Spectating Llama GD Ex. TALOS Sniper Affiliations: FF God, The Yellow Brotherhood Posts Rated Helpful 13 Times	Impossible......... There is no money in it. Game companies want to release new games based on something new to have the consumer either upgrade the current game (maps, levels...etc) or to buy a new one. In a perfect world it would be great to play TFC with FF players but if I am on the same page with you the incompatibilties would be two much to try and have game devels try to cross-devel it. Uber, That is not being very nice. Have you ever been slapped on the nose with a rolled up newspaper b4? dh __________________ If you come across a great Yellow entity offering a yellow pill, take it. Its sunshine will grow in you stomach like a bowl of Sea Monkeys - The Great Yellow Book Page 8765 Ch. 194 -Section 3

06-25-2007, 07:14 PM	#4
Lost Fear teh crowbar. Retired FF Staff Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Oklahoma Gametype: CTF ftw, yeh Posts Rated Helpful 6 Times	Wow, someone has a case of the Munddayys. __________________ Do what you want cuz a pirate is free! You are a pirate!

06-25-2007, 08:00 PM	#6
Innoc Hitman 2 1 Actual Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: "Oscar Mike" Gametype: FPS or RTS (just say NO to MMO) Affiliations: Your Mom Posts Rated Helpful 8 Times	I think the biggest problem with the modularity you're talking about is the technology push in play. Coding with an eye towards backwards compatibility can ultimately end up yielding unworkable or unstable code due to changes in functionality as the level of sophistication increases. __________________ Mooga on Obama: He can cut taxes. Actually do something useful. Punch Nancy Pelosi in the face. Just to name a few. You eventually run out of other people's money to spend.

06-25-2007, 07:30 PM	#5
zippy rainbow flying high Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: cumbria,uk Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	i need to fart

06-25-2007, 09:20 PM	#7
Ihmhi [AE] 0112 Ihmhi SJB Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Newark, NJ, United States Class/Position: A little bit o' everythin' Gametype: Also a little bit o' everythin' Affiliations: [AE] Asseater, SJB Straight Jacket Brigade Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times	Take note that the Source engine is very scaleable as a form of future proofing... they would not have to make HL3 on a new engine, for instance; it could just be used on the latest iteration of the Source engine. Moreover, the Source engine can work with computers as old as DirectX 6.0, so I presume it has a lot of backwards compatability capabilities. I do not think we will see Valve developing a new engine for at least the next 15-20 years. It is progressive thinking like the design behind the Source engine that will keep creativity from being "lost". Also note that some of the most interesting and popular games are irrespective of their graphics... there are still a Hell of a lot of players playing games like Raganrok Online (something that looks like a SNES game or even a Flash game) and Everquest (whereas Everquest II is already out). In theory, the "2" of a game COULD just be patched into the new one. The MMORPG that I am developing will essentially remain on the same engine forever and constantly be patched, added on to, changed, etc. If I ever made a "2" for whatever reason, I presume that I would put it on the same engine and integrate it into the same package, possibly even cross-linking the games (much like how WoW treats original WoW and TBC; even if you do not have TBC, you can still interact with Blood Elves, etc.; there are no seperate realms for the different versions like there are with Diablo II). I am hoping that the loss of creativity you describe will be a thing of the past. __________________ Support FF: Anime: The Thread: Reloaded The one and only anime thread on these here forums. Select the pistol, and then, select your horse.

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