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Old 08-01-2011, 05:47 PM   #1
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Class Speeds - What do you think needs to be changed, if anything?

There's something fundamentally wrong with the speed of certain classes in this game. Is having the majority of classes being at the same speed or near the same speed a hindrance to FF, and if so, why?

Current Speeds (per second):
Scout - 400units
Medic - 320units
Sniper - 300units
Engineer - 300units
Pyro - 300units
Spy - 300units
Soldier - 240units
Demoman - 280units
Civilian - 230units
HW Guy - 230units

Here's how I think they should be set:

Scout - 385units - Too fast as is. People see the Scout fly across the map and likely get discouraged. I think slowing this class down a small amount would be a good thing.
Medic - 340units - Scout used to be played a lot less in TFC than in FF and that's simply for the fact that scout is too damn fast in comparison. A small bump in speed would be my suggestion for the Medic.
Engineer - 290units - The Engineer has a good amount of equipment he carries around. Cells have to weigh something, right? I mean how heavy does a Sentry Gun weigh? Realistically, the Engi should be slower.
Pyro - 280units - This actually gives people a fighting chance to get away before being RAPED by the flamethrower. Add 10 units in speed if the Flamethrower eventually gets nerfed...
Sniper - 300units - No real reason, because sniper is pretty useless as is. No change.
Spy - 310units - The spy has maybe 1 weapon that would qualify as semi-heavy and that is the double shotgun. Couple that with a silenced pistol, a knife and a nailgun, the spy should be faster than it is right now.
Soldier - 250units - Soldier should be more of a contender in this game considering how weak the Rocket Launcher is. Increase the RPG damage or increase speed by 10 units.
Demoman - 280units - Demo has a pretty much perfect speed as is. I don't see a need to change the speed here.
Civilian - 250units - He may be fat, but he's also limber and without any weapon other than a fucking umbrella, why is this class so slow? Also, why doesn't the Civi have an umbrella feature that allows him to float using the umbrella? Also, why hasn't this melee weapon been turned into a gun?
HW Guy - 235units - Heaviest class shouldn't really get much of a speed increase. Heavy was beefed up this update and I doubt it needs much more.
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Old 08-01-2011, 07:48 PM   #2
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Umbrella gun holy shit give me twenty
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Old 08-01-2011, 08:23 PM   #3
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If the rocket launcher got a damage increase I'd quit FF altogether, I consider the Soldier to be the opposite of weak. Apart from the Laser Grenade, everything else is fine.

It may not be a very speedy class, but the rocket jump can launch the soldier quite large distances. And if needed, I see soldiers use a rocket+grenade jump which can launch them almost entirely across the yard of Aardvark for example, which they often use to chase the flag carrier.

I agree with the rest though more or less, especially lowering the pyro speed, because again they can just turn their IC to the floor for a jump or just point their flamethrower away and bhop, and gain higher speeds to fly across maps.
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Old 08-01-2011, 09:58 PM   #4
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You bring up good points. The point I was trying to make about the soldier though is that if you compare with TFC(it's the only other fortress game I've played so I have no idea if this was similar in qtf or others), the soldier's RPG is weak, albeit he is faster, but that's just because the game is faster than TFC.
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Old 08-02-2011, 04:25 AM   #5
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To be honest, I'm not sure why the you'd nerf the speed of a scout. Too fast is what the scout is, and should be. He has nothing else but his speed..

Other then that, I actually like where everything is right now. I've tested all classes on two different levels of play, and have to say that I'm comfortable with the rate of everything, no offense.

Also, I think that unless the dev team asked you to make this thread, I wouldn't see a purpose in it, if it wasn't initially posted by one of them. The reason why I say this is because multiple people (including myself) have pulled up threads like this, and it just starts bad arguements and eventually flame wars over what should or shouldn't change, and the Dev's weren't considering it anyway. It was just brought up out of the blue "Hey, we should change this, except I can't code, or anything, so my thread is just one big what if."

Get what I'm saying man? Not trying to cut down on you, just saying this is kind of pointless unless appointed by a developer.

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Old 08-02-2011, 05:14 AM   #6
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A good idea will be considered no matter where it comes from. That said, I don't agree with any of Kube's changes except perhaps slowing down pyro (if we indeed want to make him more defense oriented). I wouldn't mind slowing down all classes across the board.
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Old 08-02-2011, 09:19 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KubeDawg View Post
Scout - 385units - Too fast as is. People see the Scout fly across the map and likely get discouraged. I think slowing this class down a small amount would be a good thing.
Scout has nothing but his speed, so he needs every bit of it. And a reduction as small as that wouldn't make him seem any slower to a casual observer.

The reason people get discouraged is FF is difficult to pick up and play compared with other shooters, people often don't behave pleasantly to newcomers, and expect them to automatically know all the unwritten rules. There's also the fact that on the surface it seems similar to TF2, so where it deviates from TF2 people perceive it to be inferior ("ZOMG battle MEdic!!!!1!1!").

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Originally Posted by KubeDawg View Post
Medic - 340units - Scout used to be played a lot less in TFC than in FF and that's simply for the fact that scout is too damn fast in comparison. A small bump in speed would be my suggestion for the Medic.
I'd be okay with this, though I'd rather the Medic were buffed some other way.

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Originally Posted by KubeDawg View Post
Engineer - 290units - The Engineer has a good amount of equipment he carries around. Cells have to weigh something, right? I mean how heavy does a Sentry Gun weigh? Realistically, the Engi should be slower.
I don't think a change should be made purely for the sake of realism. FF is not a realistic game.

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Pyro - 280units - This actually gives people a fighting chance to get away before being RAPED by the flamethrower. Add 10 units in speed if the Flamethrower eventually gets nerfed...
Yes, this would be good.

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Sniper - 300units - No real reason, because sniper is pretty useless as is. No change.
I'd make him slower, maybe 260, so it takes longer for him to reposition after being killed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KubeDawg View Post
Spy - 310units - The spy has maybe 1 weapon that would qualify as semi-heavy and that is the double shotgun. Couple that with a silenced pistol, a knife and a nailgun, the spy should be faster than it is right now.
I don't really see this as a problem, though I don't like the realism argument. Balance should always trump realism. I think the main problem with the spy is how much being sneaky slows you down. He needs a bigger reward for the sheer time investment required to infiltrate the enemy flagroom. (But that's for another thread.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by KubeDawg View Post
Soldier - 250units - Soldier should be more of a contender in this game considering how weak the Rocket Launcher is. Increase the RPG damage or increase speed by 10 units.
Soldier is already good enough in my opinion, though I wouldn't mind this so much if Medic got a bigger speed increase.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KubeDawg View Post
Civilian - 250units - He may be fat, but he's also limber and without any weapon other than a fucking umbrella, why is this class so slow? Also, why doesn't the Civi have an umbrella feature that allows him to float using the umbrella? Also, why hasn't this melee weapon been turned into a gun?
Probably a good idea. Especially the umbrella gun.

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Originally Posted by KubeDawg View Post
HW Guy - 235units - Heaviest class shouldn't really get much of a speed increase. Heavy was beefed up this update and I doubt it needs much more.
HWGuy is fine as is.

Last edited by episkopos; 08-02-2011 at 09:23 AM.
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Old 08-02-2011, 02:08 PM   #8
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by KubeDawg View Post
Civilian - 250units - He may be fat, but he's also limber and without any weapon other than a fucking umbrella, why is this class so slow? Also, why doesn't the Civi have an umbrella feature that allows him to float using the umbrella? Also, why hasn't this melee weapon been turned into a gun?
Probably a good idea. Especially the umbrella gun.
The Civilian is probably the most useless class, and is only used in very few maps, for the sake of those maps though, maybe model a new umbarella that has a melee normal attack, but when you secondary attack, the umbarella is also a shotgun, with a single shell, but with huge knockback, and after firing the Civilian loads another shell into the top. So very slow firing, but with nice knockback.

I think that would work well in Hunted, so if a spy comes near, or someone who the Hunted is suspicious of, he could blast them, and if it is a spy, the knockback would be quite high so he would fly back and then the bodyguards could finish the spy off, if they are doing their job. Also on maps like Waterpolo, the Civilian "keeper" would be able to blast attackers back to then finish them off with the melee, because it's quite easy to avoid the Civ.
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Old 08-02-2011, 04:49 PM   #9
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Don't agree with any of these.

One particular note about the pyro: if you make him slower he needs more stopping power. He can kill people very quickly, but he can't really stop them from moving forward. That's necessary on defense, and slow speed = defense.
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Old 08-02-2011, 09:06 PM   #10
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Only change needed is -40 movespeed on sniper.
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Old 08-02-2011, 10:16 PM   #11
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Only change needed is -40 movespeed on sniper.
Do you just spew sniper hate in every thread?

Why do you hate them so much?
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Old 08-02-2011, 10:17 PM   #12
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Do you just aimlessly defend snipers in every thread?

Why do you hate America so much?
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Old 08-02-2011, 10:19 PM   #13
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Do you just aimlessly defend snipers in every thread?

Why do you hate America so much?
I'm English, of course I hate America.

Why do you have such a massive hate for the sniper though?
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Old 08-02-2011, 10:20 PM   #14
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A good idea will be considered no matter where it comes from.

I wouldn't mind slowing down all classes across the board.
I removed the part I disagree with, and kept the parts I do agree with.

Reason being, FF is a little too fast paced for new players. Scout and Med should be slowed the most(though, not seriously so), and balance the other class speeds from there.
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Old 08-02-2011, 10:42 PM   #15
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Reason being, FF is a little too fast paced for new players. Scout and Med should be slowed the most(though, not seriously so), and balance the other class speeds from there.
The only problem I see with that, is that speed, is a major part of attacking (these days), defenders don't need to travel very far to defend, and if the defending force focus on being in the flagroom, most of them could stand still or be as slow as a Heavy, and still be just as good. A demoman just needs to set pipes and sit back, a soldier just needs to stand at a vantage point so he can shoot rockets in any direction and cause splash damage, a heavy is the same with his minigun, an SG is stationary etc... you get the idea.

Scouts and Medics need the speed to evade the pipes, evade splash damage, avoid SG fire and everything else. I think if all classes were slowed and balanced, it would still feel like offensive classes have been nerfed, and defense, not very much difference. If you know what I mean.

And for newer players who may not have mastered concing or bhopping yet, it would feel like a daunting task to play offense, when the defending force can just be sitting in the flag room or at choke points.

And I've noticed a lot recently, defenders greatly outnumber the amount of offensive players in pubs, defense is more welcoming with all of the firepower and backup, whereas running offense can often mean you're taking everything on at once and doing it with little support, but I don't know how that can improve really.
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Old 08-03-2011, 01:07 AM   #16
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You can't just say "slow all classes by 10% across the board" and expect balance to remain even remotely the same. Defense would get stronger, for one - easier to hit targets. But what about all the movement skills? Jumping across certain gaps would be harder, scouts would no longer be able to supertrimp without a conc/jump pad, every single map would need to be redone to address the changes - something which can no longer be done. The values can be changed a litte bit, but scout should remain at 400, and civ/hw at ~230 - everything in between can be tweaked a little, but not drastically.

And I hate sniper because it's a gay class. 3rd fastest class in the game with the strongest weapon that can be used at infinite range and practically no downsides. Also it's the choice class for hackers.
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Old 08-03-2011, 02:22 AM   #17
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The only problem I see with that, is that speed, is a major part of attacking (these days), defenders don't need to travel very far to defend, and if the defending force focus on being in the flagroom, most of them could stand still or be as slow as a Heavy, and still be just as good. A demoman just needs to set pipes and sit back, a soldier just needs to stand at a vantage point so he can shoot rockets in any direction and cause splash damage, a heavy is the same with his minigun, an SG is stationary etc... you get the idea.

Scouts and Medics need the speed to evade the pipes, evade splash damage, avoid SG fire and everything else. I think if all classes were slowed and balanced, it would still feel like offensive classes have been nerfed, and defense, not very much difference. If you know what I mean.

And for newer players who may not have mastered concing or bhopping yet, it would feel like a daunting task to play offense, when the defending force can just be sitting in the flag room or at choke points.

And I've noticed a lot recently, defenders greatly outnumber the amount of offensive players in pubs, defense is more welcoming with all of the firepower and backup, whereas running offense can often mean you're taking everything on at once and doing it with little support, but I don't know how that can improve really.
Please note that I said the game is a little too fast, not massively so. You should also note that not everyone plays classes as strictly O or strictly D. Heavier classes on O can be massively usefull, and lighter classes on D can be usefull. Start thinking outside the box.
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Old 08-03-2011, 02:41 AM   #18
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Only change needed is -40 movespeed on sniper.
Changing the speed of the sniper wouldn't do anything for balance. The sniper can't even move while charging and most of the sniping spots are right outside spawn on most maps.
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Old 08-03-2011, 03:32 AM   #19
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It would make it a bit harder for him to juke when someone DOES get in range, and give them the opportunity to kill the sniper before he reaches spawn.

It's something, at least.
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Old 08-03-2011, 04:10 AM   #20
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Please note that I said the game is a little too fast, not massively so. You should also note that not everyone plays classes as strictly O or strictly D. Heavier classes on O can be massively usefull, and lighter classes on D can be usefull. Start thinking outside the box.
I know, I find attacking as Engineer is extremely useful, annoys the enemy, but I like it

Also attacking as Sniper on some maps can be great, on Aardvark a sniper can take out like 3 SG's, 3 Dispensers, 3+ enemies before being killed in the enemy base. Basically take out all of the defense. Which annoys people even more

The Scout and Medic are there though, to be the main flag capping classes, so to make them slower would still be nerfing them regardless if every other class also had their speed lowered. And they already got nerfed in 2.42+ and defense got boosted.
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