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Old 07-10-2011, 05:09 AM   #1
Gwarsbane
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Suggestion for the laser grenade

The soldier laser grenade isn't very scary, not like it used to be and not as useful as it used to be. People can easily just jump over the lasers and unless you are in really low health hitting one of the beams doesn't do much.

The changes I would like see done is have 3 more beams spinning in the opposite direction (this way people just can't easily jump over it).

I'd also like to see it move up and down more, From say knee level to shoulder level.

I think these 2 changes would help it be more deadly seeing as how it has limited distance and doesn't explode at the end.

Course one idea for making explode would maybe be a "plasma bolt". When it explodes it sends out some sort of arc which hits the nearest person doing say 20 or so damage. Or it could do some a "plasma field" where everything in its general area takes 10+ damage direct to health.

Pyros have a high chance of exploding if hit with the plasma field or bolt. (if they are under 70% armor they explode).


I make this suggestion not as a soldier, I make it as someone who hardly ever plays the class. I've come up against the laser grenade a number of times and I either jump over the beams or just run right through them. Yes I have been killed by them but its like being killed by a tranq dart, it happens but only because I was really low in health to start with. And I do play pyro a lot too. The engis emp was nerfed a while back so that it hardly ever kills pyros, so I think there should be at least one other thing that could bring a little fear into pyros life or at least make him think twice about jumping past the laser grenade.
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Old 07-10-2011, 05:51 AM   #2
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I second the beams moving in opposite directions.
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Old 07-10-2011, 05:53 AM   #3
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i think the beams should do more damage and maybe move faster. also get rid of doing damgae to teamates maybe just the deployee gets ff damage.

otherwise i completely disagree with your statement.
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Old 07-10-2011, 07:46 AM   #4
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I think the dev team stated somewhere that they wanted the laser grenade to make the other team's movements predictable since they are trying to avoid the grenade and easy to hit by the rocket instead of being used to kill directly.
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Old 07-10-2011, 09:41 AM   #5
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I have also noticed that damage is done well beyond the visible laser limit.
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Old 07-10-2011, 11:35 AM   #6
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Like angrypyro said, the Laser Grenade was designed to make enemy movement predictable, but Soldiers generally don't use it like that, they throw it at doorways to try and delay enemies for a few more seconds and cause a little damage, it's only deadly if a soldier gets it to go off right at your feet, because the very inner lasers can reduce any class to 0 health in seconds.

I scout quite often and I don't see it as a threat, even bhopping at speed it's not very hard to skip over the lasers, and unless it's in a corridoor, the range is just too small, I usually just go around them.

With the nail grenade, even though I agree it needed changing, you didn't want to get anywhere near it, the nails covered a much larger distance and it exploded without warning when it was done, so it was a risk to go anywhere near it or try and go over it.

And a nail grenade almost always killed an SG, when launched anywhere near an SG, now I just shield myself with the SG or jump when the lasers come around, and hit the SG after each laser causes damage.

I think it would be much better if the lasers simply spun a lot faster, but the grenade still stayed up for the same amount of time, so the potential damage done would be much higher. I agree with having maybe 2 sets of lasers going in different directions though.
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Old 07-10-2011, 12:48 PM   #7
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Quote:
Like angrypyro said, the Laser Grenade was designed to make enemy movement predictable, but Soldiers generally don't use it like that
Why don't soldiers use it like that? Is it because they are used to having nail grenades, or because of some other reason?

Perhaps the problem is that it's useful for killing people, but takes 4 seconds to prime, and by that time they're usually either dead or gone, or you've used most of your rockets already. Maybe it's useful for the start of combat, not the end, and that means you need to guess when the enemy is going to arrive.

Or maybe the problem is that the soldier generally stands in the choke point which ideally would be the best place for the laser itself, and the area in front of him is usually a wide space (e.g. defending monkey T), so he doesnt want to kill himself with his own laser, and using it in a wide space is fairly pointless. Thus the most useful thing to do is to use it in the choke point you are covering, when you aren't there (either resupplying, or falling back), or using it in the choke point in front of the wide space (e.g. front door), which is too far away from your position to be defended with rockets at the same time. In both situations, this leads to the soldier being far away from the laser nade, and thus being fairly useless since the soldier isnt there to shoot the predictably moving enemy.

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Old 07-10-2011, 01:33 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AfterShock View Post
Why don't soldiers use it like that? Is it because they are used to having nail grenades, or because of some other reason?

Perhaps the problem is that it's useful for killing people, but takes 4 seconds to prime, and by that time they're usually either dead or gone, or you've used most of your rockets already. Maybe it's useful for the start of combat, not the end, and that means you need to guess when the enemy is going to arrive.

Or maybe the problem is that the soldier generally stands in the choke point which ideally would be the best place for the laser itself, and the area in front of him is usually a wide space (e.g. defending monkey T), so he doesnt want to kill himself with his own laser, and using it in a wide space is fairly pointless. Thus the most useful thing to do is to use it in the choke point you are covering, when you aren't there (either resupplying, or falling back), or using it in the choke point in front of the wide space (e.g. front door), which is too far away from your position to be defended with rockets at the same time. In both situations, this leads to the soldier being far away from the laser nade, and thus being fairly useless since the soldier isnt there to shoot the predictably moving enemy.
Well, all of those really.

I personally never play Soldier and I don't really like the class. But it's very popular with others, and many soldiers sort of use the laser grenade like it was previewed in the 2.42 Trailer, but that trailer also shows an attacking enemy who isn't very smart, or isn't playing very smart to try and sell the effectiveness of the Laser Grenade for the trailer.

Whenever a laser grenade gets in my way in that type of situation, I just conc over it and the soldier himself. But usually the laser grenade isn't used that way, it's thrown in more open spaces, and it's not hard to out outmaneuver.

And a lot of it probably goes to the need to predict when an enemy is approaching, same with what HW does with slow grenades, he needs to predict when someone is coming to catch them in the slow grenade, but in the majority of maps, if you only react when you can see the scout coming, it's too late to prime a grenade and use it well, usually it's more effective to turn around and throw it behind you in the prediction that the scout may conc or get past you another way.


I can imagine if the laser grenade did explode at the end, with no warning, in a plasma-like explosion, people wouldn't think it was so weak or useless, because the fear would be the same as the nail grenade, if you attempt to get past it, you might just get blown up.

But keeping the nature of the grenade the same, it needs improved damage or design to be considered good enough for a Soldier.
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Old 07-10-2011, 02:21 PM   #9
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Try using it on Offense, and you'll see an entirely different result.
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Old 07-10-2011, 03:33 PM   #10
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Try using it on Offense, and you'll see an entirely different result.
For what defensive classes want to accomplish on offense, usually a Demoman is more appropriate, or even an Engineer. When Soldiers do attack, the laser grenade hasn't been very effective against me. It is quite easy to save structures from them, and to avoid, unless the laser grenade is thrown at the spawn doors, then it's very effective, but frowned upon.

But I'm hoping it wasn't designed for that, otherwise 2.42+ has designed a HW perfect for standing on the flag, and a grenade perfect for stopping people coming out of the spawn.

If I'm not a scout, I generally attack as an Engineer or Sniper.
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Old 07-10-2011, 06:31 PM   #11
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My accuracy with pipes(especially since they bounce and stop without proceeding further) has never really adjusted. I'm still pretty good with rockets, though.

Granted, I've never played against you... but different players use different tactics. I don't throw anything in front of spawn doors, unless someone ran in there in the middle of a fight.

I won't deny that I'd like the lasers a little more powerfull, but to be honest, I'm fine with it the way it is.
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Old 07-15-2011, 08:46 AM   #12
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I really like the idea of counter rotating beams with some vertical movement too. As a scout the current laser gren is pretty damn easy to avoid. I definitely don't fear them like i did the nail gren, and the only predictable movement I make is to go over, around, or between the beams. Some kind of explosive effect would make them more difficult.
What I miss about the nail grenade was its usefulness (to me) as an early warning of an approaching player. A nail gren tossed down an approach route would give me enough warning when a hit registered to have a primary gren primed and a rocket already on the way....made for a nice surprise
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Old 07-15-2011, 01:49 PM   #13
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A nail gren tossed down an approach route would give me enough warning when a hit registered to have a primary gren primed and a rocket already on the way....made for a nice surprise
Therein lies the problem with the hit indicator.
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Old 07-15-2011, 10:09 PM   #14
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what if after it was done rotating a small round of around of nails spread everywhere or there was a small explosion at the end, or both.
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Old 07-15-2011, 10:12 PM   #15
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No explosion. What don't you get...
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Old 07-16-2011, 07:23 AM   #16
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Therein lies the problem with the hit indicator.
Are you saying the hit indicator is a problem?
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