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Old 07-20-2011, 01:28 AM   #1
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Spy secondary nade thread

As has been mentioned in this thread.... the subject of the lack of secondary grenade for the Spy has come up.

I'm looking for any ideas the community at large has for a secondary grenade to replace the Gas Pill.

Any and all ideas should be put forth, but please, don't call someone else's idea "stupid", "lame", or any other sort of flame. If you disagree with an idea, feel free to state so, but do so in a civil manner. Argue against it if you like, just refrain from trolling people.

Thanks!
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Old 07-20-2011, 01:40 AM   #2
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You should replace it with a gas grenade.
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Old 07-20-2011, 02:11 AM   #3
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http://forums.fortress-forever.com/p...d=341#note2479

Since the gas grenade has mixed thoughts, and is generally viewed by the devs as a throw and forget weapon, the spy needs something else. As is he's fairly underwhelming, and most people simply play him as a medic-ish class, without concs but with disguises/backstabs.

How about he gets a grenade that, on hit, disables the weapon currently being equipped by those it hits for a few seconds (3-5 seconds). This would NOT prevent +attack2 from working (so demos could still det), and on weapons that charge (rail gun, sniper rifle), it would fire the shot as the grenade hits. In addition, the defender can switch to a different weapon after a very short delay (~1 second), and it would not work at all on melee weapons (mostly to help engies out). It could still disable SGs though, but they would have to be repairable.

Make it have a tight area of effect - maybe a little smaller than the frag grenade's splash. Spawn with 1, limit of 2. Have it be primable while cloaked, although nearby enemies would still hear the grenade click.

I think it'd add a neat amount of depth to playing spy. You could disable a key defender right as your team's swooping in to get the flag. It'd make the D vs. spy interaction more interesting than "kill him before he throws 2 grens at the SG" - the spy could just disable the SG while attacking other defenders, or stop the demo from refreshing pipes after he dets once...lots of possibilities.

Thoughts?
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Old 07-20-2011, 02:54 AM   #4
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I'd like the old hallucination grenade back from TFC. I think creating confusion without slowing the person down would be a balanced grenade for the spy.
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Old 07-20-2011, 08:39 AM   #5
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Hhhmm the way I see the Spy Class.

Breaks into Defense undetected.

The spy already has many tools to break into defense and the gas grenade was never intuitive into the game play. I really doubt the spy needs a secondary grenade; if anything the gas grenade made everyone aware that a spy was around. He needs a movement technique; make him more like a ninja and undetectable.
  • grappling hook
  • Walk on walls and still able to cloak.

I really do not have much to add, the spy is perfect the way he is at the moment. The spy only issue was speed, but with jumpads that got eliminated.
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Old 07-20-2011, 11:29 AM   #6
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Hmmm, Geokill makes a good point that using a gas grenade as a spy is basically telling the enemy team that there's a spy and they should start spy checking and watching entrances.


Off the top of my head, maybe a grenade that has a loud explosion into black smoke that goes off then dissipates, and any enemies it hits only in the initial explosion, their screen goes cloudy with black smoke for 3 - 5 seconds or so, like a blindness, but instead of going completely black like if an admin were to blind someone.. the view goes very smoky so it's hard to see anything atall. But only for a short period.

The way I see this grenade being used, is when a spy is attacking and grabs the flag, he can prime a smoke grenade and throw it at an enemy as he runs past, so it explodes in their face and blinds them, giving the spy enough of a window to get away with the flag. It could also be used when the spy has been rumbled in the enemy base, and an enemy gives chase, he could prime it turn around and blind the defender, so the spy can then divert away from the enemy and cloak ready to give it another go.

This in my opinion makes it less of a throw and forget grenade, because unlike the gas grenade, which lingers around so there's a period of time for enemies to run through it and be affected. The Smoke grenade is a sharp quick blast into a puff off smoke, and it's a very tactical grenade that suits the style of the spy.
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Old 07-20-2011, 01:17 PM   #7
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I play spy a lot. The only people who don't think a spy is in the room already are new players. If they stick around the new person quickly learns to think that there is a spy in the room.

Having the spy grenade "announce" that there is a spy in the area doesn't really mean anything because after the first kill or 2, the enemy already knows there is a spy around.

The problem with coming up with any other grenade type is that, they will still know a spy is around.

I'd like to see the spy grenade be a little more useful and make it so that someone doesn't want to charge through it.

Maybe have a few of the below or all of them or some kind of random mix of them.



Eyes get watery (reduce being able to see things like the tranq, longer you're in it, the worse your vision gets)

Get disorientated (controls get reversed, forward = reverse, left = right kind of thing. (or forward = left, left = reverse kind of thing))

Seeing things (3 or 4 spies show up in view swinging their knives, all of them fake)

Spy becomes invisible to infected, or anyone of the enemy teams becomes invisible to the infected.

Make Spy immune or mostly immune to the effects of his own grenade.
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Old 07-20-2011, 02:26 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Gwarsbane View Post
Eyes get watery (reduce being able to see things like the tranq, longer you're in it, the worse your vision gets)

Get disorientated (controls get reversed, forward = reverse, left = right kind of thing. (or forward = left, left = reverse kind of thing))

Seeing things (3 or 4 spies show up in view swinging their knives, all of them fake)

Spy becomes invisible to infected, or anyone of the enemy teams becomes invisible to the infected.

Make Spy immune or mostly immune to the effects of his own grenade.
I'm definitely digging this idea cept for maybe the invisbility. Spy already has a cloak.
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Old 07-20-2011, 04:30 PM   #9
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I am 100% against any idea that involves messing with my screen.

This is one of the main reasons I hate the spy class already. The tranq is soo annoying, not because it slows my movement but because it reduces my FoV and clarity of the screen.

I can deal with reduced movement, I hate having my screen affected. Again it's why I hate the gas grenade, I could care less about the damage over time, it just really pisses me off when I can't see my screen.

Having my keys reversed would also make me instantly want to quit playing.

I don't mind the hallucination stuff though, seeing multiple targets, things that aren't there, and sounds that don't happen. Basically what Kube said, the old TFC nade was good, it still confused you, but it did not mess with the screen.

I instantly took off the "warped" effect of going super fast, because to me it was a useless distraction that affected my screen.
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Old 07-20-2011, 05:03 PM   #10
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I like several of the ideas that have been put forth so far. I'll chime in later on which ones, and why. Good job, everyone!
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Old 07-20-2011, 09:05 PM   #11
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I am 100% against any idea that involves messing with my screen.

This is one of the main reasons I hate the spy class already. The tranq is soo annoying, not because it slows my movement but because it reduces my FoV and clarity of the screen.

I can deal with reduced movement, I hate having my screen affected. Again it's why I hate the gas grenade, I could care less about the damage over time, it just really pisses me off when I can't see my screen.

Having my keys reversed would also make me instantly want to quit playing.

I don't mind the hallucination stuff though, seeing multiple targets, things that aren't there, and sounds that don't happen. Basically what Kube said, the old TFC nade was good, it still confused you, but it did not mess with the screen.

I instantly took off the "warped" effect of going super fast, because to me it was a useless distraction that affected my screen.
How do you feel about the conc effect?
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Old 07-20-2011, 09:11 PM   #12
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Maybe an effect where suddenly you have lots of motion blur, sort of like drunk vision, so when you turn and move everything is spinning a little and things blur, but if you stand still, your vision is somewhat clear. So it would be a grenade to discourage defenders to run after you and reduce their combat ability due to moving = distortion. The actual effect though would need a lot of work to get it right and have the desired result.
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Old 07-21-2011, 03:42 PM   #13
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How do you feel about the conc effect?
Conc effect is fine, as it does not actually alter my screen, sure it might move around a bit but it does not make everything soo dark I can't see, does not blur my screen, and it does not reduce my fov.

There are probably a billion good ideas out there for what a good spy secondary can be.

But for me anything that does any of the above is just terrible. The tranq already does all that crap and I hate it.

Even though I don't like the sniper class, I do actually like how TFC and FF did the zoom for it. I hate scopes

*Edit*: Oh that also includes stuff like flash grenades, never liked those in CS either. Smoke grenades though are ok, but I'm not exactly sure how usefull they would be in FF as dying isn't a big deal in FF unlike CS

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Old 07-21-2011, 03:57 PM   #14
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As for an actual suggestion to what might be usefull, I'm going to keep to my personal preferences about the game and suggest something for killing and not for annoyances, as that was what his gas grenade was, just an annoyance.

So I'm thinking proximity mines. Pretty simple, harder to detect than a trip mine and is way more versitile as it can be anywhere, not just in hallways and stuff. Could have a lot of fun putting them in ragdolls, and have an enemy give chase and all of a sudden this corpose explodes as he runs by.
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Old 07-25-2011, 12:39 PM   #15
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I happen to like the idea of a hologram grenade. It could be used to distract the enemy, waste a few shots, but ultimately isn't over powered.

The only other thing I can think makes sense, but could be over powering, that would be giving him no grenade, but the ability to steal grenades from a class that he is disguised as. Its limits would be that he has to be currently disguised in order to gain those grenades, and literally take them from another player, which means his number is limited to the amount he can steal. If the other player has none on him, then the spy is risking loosing his disguise for nothing. Of course eh would be allowed only one type at one time. And in fairness I think only 1 grenade at one time, since he can go steal another when it is finished.

But it would make the class more dynamic. I like this idea, but my own concerns for it are overpowering. I'm not sure if it would destroy gameplay.
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Old 07-25-2011, 08:18 PM   #16
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My only question about "hologram" nades(an idea I do like), is can it be done within the mechanics of the game?

I also like the idea suggested above, where the disguised spy can "steal" a class nade from someone. This might actually be simpler to do(from a technical sense), and cause some confusion on the enemy team. After all, a spy that can breed confusion is a good thing.
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Old 07-29-2011, 11:21 AM   #17
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My only question about "hologram" nades(an idea I do like), is can it be done within the mechanics of the game?

I also like the idea suggested above, where the disguised spy can "steal" a class nade from someone. This might actually be simpler to do(from a technical sense), and cause some confusion on the enemy team. After all, a spy that can breed confusion is a good thing.
the ability to steal or use other classes grenades while disguised as that class. only has 1 unless refills. that could work.

then the holograms i like but how well do you think that will go over you saw how the slow-field went over like... wah! i can't kill things with my slowfield wahahaaha! (that was seriously the overall consensus i got, when playing in game. )
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Old 07-29-2011, 04:53 PM   #18
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Actually, with the hologram nade, it could make getting kills easier for a newer player. While the nade itself won't kill, it provides a "target"(read: distraction) for the enemy player, and allows the spy get behind for a knife to the back. At least, in theory.

As far as coding either of these, I think coding the ability to "steal a nade" would be much simpler, and still be a very usefull tool for the class. The limitation to the concept would be you'd have to still be disguised as the class to use it(at least, it would make sense, to be a Demo throwing a laser grenade would be a dead give-a-way).
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Old 07-29-2011, 11:26 PM   #19
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As far as coding either of these, I think coding the ability to "steal a nade" would be much simpler, and still be a very usefull tool for the class. The limitation to the concept would be you'd have to still be disguised as the class to use it(at least, it would make sense, to be a Demo throwing a laser grenade would be a dead give-a-way).
The colors of the laser would already be a dead give-a-way since they are team coded.
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Old 07-30-2011, 04:32 AM   #20
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First of all, Thank you for making this thread. This is what I wanted to see, so officially I'm happy now . *pauses* shut up ricey. (lol, <-- I have to put this because if I don't I get an infraction apparently, or warning. )

Honestly, I never really saw a reason for a 2ndary grenade. The spy seems to already have enough in his arsenal to perform well objectively. Homie destroyed on phantom a few days back with the spy. Some maps are just made for that class *theoretically thinking*.

So honestly, I would have to say something nothing but if you want to get technical, here's several random ideas/thoughts that many of you can comment or flame about .

Considering the Official strategy on the spy is Offense oriented i'll put out only those ideas that would help him grow on that. Again these are random just tossed out ideas that could probably go anywhere. They range from simple to complex of course.

1) give em a conc (F* it. lol) : Conc + knife = Flying knife attacks = cool beans.

2) Instead of a grenade give him an aerial manuver to jump over players. Give it a cool down like the pressure hit..

3) throwing knives? (rewarding)


And that's all i'm going to put out. Though the hologram seems to be a winner in my book. I kind of want to use the term decoy too though o_O.

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