CZ2 Still Fails - And Suggestions

[puppychow]

I know it's easy for someone to be on the sidelines and offer not too friendly comments, but from someone who has played tfc since 2000, and followed ff closely, and noticed how cz2 was propositioned as this extremely fun new map to play - in my opinion, it still sucks. Canal Zone 2 for tfc sucked and it still sucks now, even with all the ne bells and whistles.

I cannot tell you the amount of times i have seen a populated server just die after it switches to cz2 in ff - even the new cz2. And it's really hard to say why, except you can't polish a turd. It was a turd before and it's still a turd. Doesn't matter what imporvements have been made, regarding command points etc - sometimes a map is just not friendly and cz has always been that and continues to be that.

I guess my point is that a core subset of the community may like it, but this is NOT a map that should be advertised in terms of "hey this is FF - look how fun it can be!".

You want a map that should be pushed for the next patch and advertised the fuck out of? Avanti. It's a crime that it hasn't been done justice yet...yes it's an a/d map, but it offers challenges to oldies and is also noob friendly....and it was a map that was generally populated in tfc....cz2 in tfc still lost players...sometimes you need to take the brave approach and realize a map is dead.

Want a map that addresses clanners whining of lack of working together, and "n00bs" just dm'ing in a field? A/D, by it's nature does this - and the flagship for this is not cornfield (which imo is the best map for ff atm), it's not dustbowl (ff version is just difficult to play and not satisifing), nor is it palmero (pretty but not optimized and too big)......Avanti is fucking tight.

I feel like the devs got somewhat suckered into tf2 thinking with cz2 and it's remake....it's still awful to play and most importantly no fun....i am reluctant to even say that's an opinion...it's kinda a fact. From this view, it's lame to play, and if the dev team needs a map to hang their hat on and promote and say "look at us - this is WHAT FF is all about" - it should be avanti.

Thx for reading rant....i do not propose to know more than any, i do like to think i know what is fun.....cz2 v 2.0 (even 1.0) is not.

Hang your hat on warpath or avanti for patch 3.

CZ2 is just depressing/boring/and hard to get into.

[GeoKill----->]

I Love cz2!

[puppychow]

you like cz2 as you have been privvy to its transformation and are subject to group think....from a "fun" map perspective it still sucks balls, and the bailing of players from a server as it turns to this map demonstrates this.

no one wants to play it.

think of it as the new microsoft ads with gates and seinfeld - best intentions, terrible executions.

[GeoKill----->]

With organized teams and pub teams I have found this map fun. I hated pre 2.1 cz2, I even removed it out of rotation but now I have never seen a server get empty cause of cz2.

[puppychow]

Originally Posted by GeoKill----->

With organized teams

ff isnt organised, nor was tfc...now if you want to speak to maps best for clan play, thats a diff story....

[Agent Buckshot Moose]

The times I have played cz2 since 2.1 have not been met with an empty server. Quite the opposite in fact...

[v3rtigo]

I can't say I like cz2 as well. The map layout and design just don't appeal to me. I won't say it's turd, but it's definately not as appealing as 2fort or well. I'm not much of a command point capturing gameplay style-lover so I'm sure that plays its part.

[squeek.]

Puppychow, I'd say you are a vocal minority of one. CZ2 is fun any way you cut it.

If you were reading with your eyes open, you would have seen this:

Originally Posted by GeoKill

With organized teams and pub teams

CZ2 is great for pubs. A little bit of communication from some experienced players (tell people to use the teleporters, etc), and the game takes on a whole new form. Both CZ2 and Tiger have been incredibly fun in pubs. That is a fact. People like the maps and the gametype and have said so over and over while we are playing. That is a fact. People regularly nominate cz2 and tiger in rockthevotes. That is a fact. But, check out what I can do:

Avanti for tfc sucked and it will still suck for ff even with all the ne bells and whistles.

I cannot tell you the amount of times i have seen a populated server just die after it switches to avanti in tfc - and in ff it will be the same. And it's really hard to say why, except you can't polish a turd. It was a turd before and it will still be a turd. Doesn't matter what imporvements will be made, regarding capture points etc - sometimes a map is just not friendly and avanti has always been that and will continue to be that.

The above paragraph is not helpful to anyone. It's not a suggestion and it's also not true. The same goes for your paragraph about CZ2.

If you don't like a certain map, go ahead and avoid it. Other people DO like it. End of story.

I'll quote trepid_jon on the catacombs for you as well:

Originally Posted by trepid_jon

Jarek, I'm with you. I liked cz2 a lot. It's why Jesse and I made ff_cz2. I liked running flags. I liked escorting flag runners. But we came to the conclusion that the flag running system was holding the map back from being more enjoyable to more people. Going back and forth in cz2, over and over and over and over again, was like an acquired taste or something. More people disliked it than liked it, and that's not the kind of map I want to make. My personal goal with 2.1 was to make my maps (cz2, hunted, and waterpolo) more fun (and optimized enough just for more people to run them in hunted and waterpolo's cases).

2.1's cz2 is a lot more fun due to the removal of flags and inclusion of time-based, proximity capping. It is similar to TF2's CP system, but it has its differences. It was more based on DoD than TF2, but even those cap methods are similar, so I dunno. Technically, it's based on this map I played way back in Axl's TFC Server, but all that is beside the point that ff_cz2 is finally tons of fun. And ff_tiger uses the new CP system as well, which is nice.

and also, this:

Originally Posted by squeek.

We tried many variations of CZ2, and this one is the most fun. End of story. TF2 wasn't even a factor in the decision.

[puppychow]

well then bend me over and call me sally - i'm saying cz2, with the new command point system, was a flagship point of the new patch and it's my OPINION that it was misguided. I gave my other suggestions as well...

Care to have this discussion again in three months when cz2 is one of the least played maps? it will be so. but if i call you out then im sure you will just call me a dick. face it, the map is not friendly nor should have been a main focus of a new patch. forever_2 or wstland_2 would have been met with more joy if ported correctly.

the correct importance on launch was given to dustbowl, unfortunately the map is just not friendly...the new 2fort is met with love/hate and i get both sides. want a map that satisifies bitching by everyone? port avanti.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by puppychow

port avanti.

Why don't you?

CZ2 was not a "flagship" point of the new patch. It was featured in a video because it was a video about new things in 2.1. Wow. Anticitizen was also featured. So was bases. And tiger. And the dispenser. And the railgun. Also, the new IC model. And 2fort. Bunnyhopping speed. The skim cap. SG Sonar. Spy cloak...

Yeah. CZ2 wasn't toted as the perfect example of what FF is. At all. It was toted as a fun map, which it is to most people. Except you.

It was not a mistake to include CZ2 in the 2.1 preview video and it was not a mistake to tell the truth about CZ2 leading up to the 2.1 release (that it is a fun map).

[Hammock]

I'm not a huge fan of cz2 myself. Hated it in TFC and still don't like it in FF. I can't say I witness it killing a server though because I'll usually leave the server before the map finishes to load or shortly after connecting, from sheer boredom. Same goes for Tiger.

But that's just my preference, I hate the "sprawling" types of maps(point A -> B,C,D,E) I prefer linear maps (point A -> B, B->C, C->D, A->B->A).

Greenmushy is working on a map I'm not sure we can talk about yet, but I sure hope it gets finished soon. I freaking love it.

[puppychow]

Originally Posted by squeek.

Why don't you?

love to but im 33 and gaming time itself has become a rare thing, between work and trying to get married. if u care to dedicate some hours with me on im (yes i know there are tuts out there but i want some handholding) i'll try to put my money where my mouth is.

[SmellyCat]

Sorry, someone good has to do Avanti, no offence.

Seen as it's like, an awesomefantasticamazing map.

[puppychow]

no offense taken - i wasnt even saying that would be the map...

i just want to make a map and display that i think i know what goes into a fun map.....art + science...i need the science part. wanting a lord.

but yeah, it's like one of the most fun maps out there for tfc....crime its not out. it attracts players like moths to a bright light. buzzz

[Credge]

Even if you really enjoy CZ2 puppychow has two very good points.

1. WHERE IS AVANTI?

2. Needs more AVD.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Credge

1. WHERE IS AVANTI?

http://www.fortress-forever.com/foru...ad.php?t=16670

2. Needs more AVD.

It's coming.

[GambiT]

i skimmed through this thread, so know that it advance. CZ2 is an awsome map, and i will explain why "I" think so. You could say its a mappers curse, but when i first join a map, or what appeals to me most, is not just how it plays but how well it looks. The FIRST thing(s) i looked for are detail, how well the textures work together, and overall structure. Then i look at gameplay, again this is just me. CZ2 is the most beautifully made map we have in my opinion, i've seen the vmf(map file), ALOT of time and effort was put into this map, and knowing and seeing that makes it that much better to me.

end rambling...

now, before you say "that has nothing to do with gameplay" let me say this, as i believe a few others have already. CZ2 plays great, it fills up a server, so i dont believe your statement one bit, i've seen this several times. ppl are actually begging to switch to it at times(amongst other maps). you may not like it, but your opinion compared to 100's means nothing. i'm not being mean, we as devs appreciate any and all input we can get, good or bad, and i thank you for voicing your opinion. however, i think you are wrong.

CZ2 has always been a fun map, even in TFC.

[EquilibriuM]

CZ2 is more fun then it was in 2.0 i admit that, but like a few other ppl say it isnt that great rly, and it isnt in my opinion nore is tiger , these 2 maps pretty much died with tfc, only time cz2 was fun in tfc was when it was played in matches. Besides that, in another thread i read here someplace we need new orignal FF maps, which i totally agree with. Only maps i want from tfc still are rock2,warpath,avanti, and flagrun, after that nomore tfc maps.
i wish i knew how to map, ide love to make a few, everyone says its easy but im not so convinced OH and bring on the fun maps, we need alot of those, b/c even if no servers have ppl on them you can play funmaps like k the game with like 2 ppl.

[SmellyCat]

It's not slight on the trepids for the effort they put in to it, but I've just never, ever liked CZ2.

However, they have made it playable and possible to enjoy when in the right conditions and achieving that with CZ2 (up there with some of the most boring pub maps ever like rock2 in TFC) is actually a big accomplishment.

[MonoXideAtWork]

I prefer cz2 over tiger.

I love these kinds of maps, they play really well with the time based capture system. Tiger is a little too small and open, which leads to snipers owning the field. It may have been designed like that, but it doesn't appeal to me.

But I <3 cz2. We need to play some cz2 golf!