Fortress Forever

Go Back   Fortress Forever > Community > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-01-2010, 05:13 PM   #81
Desyphur
OHH! OHHH NOOO!
Wiki Team
Beta Tester
 
Desyphur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwarsbane View Post
To make things a little harder for someone just to come in and sit there and jump get an achievement then require it to have a little bit of forward, backward, or side momentum to count. This way they can't just, come into a server, place a weight on the jump key or set up a bind to just jump up and down.

Clay pigeon, Any Class, Get gibbed by a sniper while in the air at least double or triple the height off the ground then a jump or double jump could take you (not sure of the units that would require) 100/1,000/10,000 times.
First one is easily avoided, if they wanted to. +forward, +(turn?)left, +jump in console.

Second: "Pull!: Gib 100/1,000/10,000 players that are at least <height> off the ground."
__________________
What was left of my sanity implored me not to enter...but that voice was just a whisper now.
Desyphur is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 03-01-2010, 10:02 PM   #82
Gwarsbane
Slayer of humans
D&A Member
 
Gwarsbane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Mostly on earth though in some alt dimensions
Class/Position: I'm an Offensive Defensive person
Gametype: Fortress Forever
Affiliations: I'm a merc, only thing that talks is money
Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by Desyphur View Post
First one is easily avoided, if they wanted to. +forward, +(turn?)left, +jump in console.

Second: "Pull!: Gib 100/1,000/10,000 players that are at least <height> off the ground."
True, but again if they want to do that nothing will stop them, unless an admin kick them.

There are going to be people that just play for the achievements and there are going to be people that just want to play and if they get achievements then thats just a bonus but they are not trying for them. And of course there will be people in between.

So yes the first one there is going to happen, but you will find people like that in all kinds of games. Not a whole lot you can do to stop it.

Second one is not as easy to avoid unless you just run across the ground all the time, and even then you're still gonna get popped up every now and then.

I've suggested achievements for both the person who pops someone in the air and the person who is in the air that gets popped.

I guess for the second one I don't know what your point is for that. Unless its because I posted it before and forgot about it.

They could always have an option to turn off achievements if you don't care for them at all.


Again if Achievements are coming then make a variety of them, make some easy, make some hard, make some near impossible, make them fun and make them all stuff that you could normally do while playing the game.
Gwarsbane is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 03-01-2010, 11:55 PM   #83
mervaka
A Very Sound Guy!
Fortress Forever Staff
 
mervaka's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UK
Posts Rated Helpful 15 Times
lets make the sniper an achievement. you need to backstab 10000 people or something
mervaka is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 03-02-2010, 10:04 AM   #84
moosh
WhenNailGrenWillOut?
Beta Tester
 
moosh's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Gametype: mp_prematch
Affiliations: [:)] - Frag Happy, babe|
Posts Rated Helpful 29 Times
Large numbers are bad,mmkay.
__________________
[[ ff_hotfudge - bhop_theonlyone ]]
"As the the new year approaches I await for it like an case of explosive fecalomania otherwise know as diareha or the massive shits. I am gripping the sides of the toilet as my stomach produces the first hollow thud out of the anus of the year to come." DarkeN_HellspawN
moosh is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 03-02-2010, 12:48 PM   #85
Eon Seig
AaaaaaaTATATATATATATATA!
 
Eon Seig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Florida
Class/Position: Pyro Scout Soldier / Offense
Gametype: CTF/AvD
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
How about a good one for Soldier? Body block 100 Scouts concing away with the flag.
Eon Seig is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 03-02-2010, 02:51 PM   #86
Gwarsbane
Slayer of humans
D&A Member
 
Gwarsbane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Mostly on earth though in some alt dimensions
Class/Position: I'm an Offensive Defensive person
Gametype: Fortress Forever
Affiliations: I'm a merc, only thing that talks is money
Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by moosh View Post
Large numbers are bad,mmkay.
So then you want all low numbers where everyone will have them all after just a couple of days?

Having both low medium and high numbers is the best way to keep people interested over the long term. After all there are some people that might come to the game just for the achievements (there are some people like that) but if we can keep them long enough maybe they might stay for the actual game and bring others in.

Eon Seig I like that one, but I don't know how it would be detected that you actually blocked anyone with your body.


Patriot Launcher, Soldier or Pyro, kill 100/1,000/10,000 people while they are at least 10 to 20 game feet (or higher) in the air.
Gwarsbane is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 03-02-2010, 02:53 PM   #87
Bridget
Banned
 
Bridget's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Class/Position: Soldier
Gametype: AVD
Affiliations: TALOS
Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
There's a difference between achievements that require you do something very difficult or complicated a few times (or once) and achievements that require you do something very simple and generic and monotonous and tedious a thousand times.
Bridget is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 03-02-2010, 03:34 PM   #88
Gwarsbane
Slayer of humans
D&A Member
 
Gwarsbane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Mostly on earth though in some alt dimensions
Class/Position: I'm an Offensive Defensive person
Gametype: Fortress Forever
Affiliations: I'm a merc, only thing that talks is money
Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
There's a difference between achievements that require you do something very difficult or complicated a few times (or once) and achievements that require you do something very simple and generic and monotonous and tedious a thousand times.
Yes, but there is no reason not to have both. Specially if you do all that stuff in game anyway.


You seem to be saying we only need achievements that you only have to do once or just a couple of times to go.

I'm saying we should have both.



Why do you think its bad to have achievements that while simple to do, could take a long long time to do?

Why do you think its bad to have achievements that while very difficult or complicated to do could take a long long time to do?


The only problem I see with only having simple easy to get achievements is that they will all get done quickly and then what?


This is why I am suggesting both. Just because I have only put in suggestions for ones that would take a long time to do, doesn't mean I think there should only be ones that take a long time to do.


Again you only seem to be suggesting simple ones that are done and over quickly and suggesting we don't need long term ones that could take days, weeks or even months to get. I'm trying to suggest we have both.
Gwarsbane is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 03-02-2010, 03:56 PM   #89
GenghisTron
AKA LittleAndroidMan
D&A Member
Beta Tester
 
GenghisTron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Dystopia
Class/Position: Demo/Medic
Gametype: CTF
Affiliations: [TALOS] [SR]
Posts Rated Helpful 11 Times
I already went over this at the beginning of the thread. Achievements that are 'simple and long to do' will eventually result in people 'grinding' achievements, which, in simpler terms, means accomplishing them before their peers, and usually at the detriment to those they're playing against.
__________________
GenghisTron is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 03-02-2010, 03:59 PM   #90
Bridget
Banned
 
Bridget's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Class/Position: Soldier
Gametype: AVD
Affiliations: TALOS
Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
They're called achievements. I see them as challenges that you have to work up to. If an achievement says "Kill a Scout going over 1,000 movement speed." and I manage to pull that off, then I feel as if I have achieved something. The achievement comes in the form of pulling off something, not pulling off something and then having to perform it a thousand times.

I see achievements as learning tools. Once you learn how to do something, you get an achievement to verify your success. Once you're able to do something, what incentive is there to do it a thousand times more? What's the point of doing something a thousand times when you only need to do it once to verify you were skilled enough or capable?

You're suggesting achievements that are simple though monotonous and tedious as protection against people completing achievements too fast. The speed at which someone does achievements is irrelevant. If the achievements are good quality achievements, and someone manages to get through them in an hour, then that player must have learned a lot and got a lot out of them or already had the skill required.

I'd rather blaze through an hour of good quality achievements than waste a week of my time doing shitty achievements. Why is it necessary that achievements take forever? The speed at which someone goes through achievements should be based on how skilled that individual is, not on how poorly designed or repetitive the achievement is. If the user is capable of doing them in an hour, then let him. If the user is not capable, then he will learn something. Filler (what you're suggesting) is unnecessary if you take the first step and actually produce good quality achievements.
Bridget is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 03-02-2010, 04:25 PM   #91
tripleS!X
 
tripleS!X's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Ontario, Canada
Class/Position: Scout Offense/ Soldier Defense/ Demo Defense
Gametype: Capture the Flag
Affiliations: :e0: / TALOS
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
Send a message via MSN to tripleS!X
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nezumi View Post
Not that I'm particularly for or against achievements, but if FF ever has unlockables that give a functional advantage to a player, I'll seriously bomb a preschool.
hahahahahahahaha... made me die laughing
__________________
stIKy/durTmugurT

Last edited by tripleS!X; 03-02-2010 at 04:25 PM.
tripleS!X is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 03-02-2010, 05:23 PM   #92
R00Kie
Kawaii! ルーキー
Lua Team
Wiki Team
Fortress Forever Staff
 
R00Kie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Nowhere, Kansas
Class/Position: Random
Gametype: CTF
Affiliations: BiG, Kawaii!, MustacheBrigade, GoodFellas
Posts Rated Helpful 82 Times
They are both useful, but should be split into two categories. The first being milestones(or whatever) that are generalized for every class, like jumping a zillion times or killing 500 people as a solider. Those being based around long term goals. The next being achievements that you do only once or perhaps a few times in one game, like make 3 captures in a row without dying or air shot a conc jumper with a tranq. These will be based around skill or short term goals.
__________________
Released: [ Island ] [ Rookie ] [ Limbo ] [ Sonic ] [ Tomb ] [ Skydive2 ] [ Bunkerwars ]
Beta: [ Argon ] [ Reflection ] [ Urbantag ]
Lua: [ game_rules ]
R00Kie is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 03-02-2010, 08:11 PM   #93
Gwarsbane
Slayer of humans
D&A Member
 
Gwarsbane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Mostly on earth though in some alt dimensions
Class/Position: I'm an Offensive Defensive person
Gametype: Fortress Forever
Affiliations: I'm a merc, only thing that talks is money
Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by GenghisTron View Post
I already went over this at the beginning of the thread. Achievements that are 'simple and long to do' will eventually result in people 'grinding' achievements, which, in simpler terms, means accomplishing them before their peers, and usually at the detriment to those they're playing against.
And if you bothered to read anything I have said, you will see that I have said that yes people will grind, no matter if they are short term ones or long term ones. This happens with TF2 and many other games that have achievements. (with and without prizes like more powerful guns)

If the FF team is going to have achievements then why not have both short term and long term achievements.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
They're called achievements. I see them as challenges that you have to work up to. If an achievement says "Kill a Scout going over 1,000 movement speed." and I manage to pull that off, then I feel as if I have achieved something. The achievement comes in the form of pulling off something, not pulling off something and then having to perform it a thousand times.
You're getting hung up on the name of it. So what if its called an achievement or a milestone or whatever.

JUST BECAUSE I AM SUGGESTING STUFF THAT WILL TAKE A WHILE TO COMPLETE DOESN'T MEAN ITS NOT AN ACHIEVEMENT. Its still an achievement, its still a milestone, its still a whatever the heck you want to call it.

The suggestions I have been making are for both SHORT TERM AND LONG TERM achievements. If you want to call the long term ones something like like milestones to help you get over it then do so. Its still an achievement to me and if we are going to have achievements/milestones in the game then at least have some that are going to take a long time so that people who enjoy getting them, have something to look forward to in the future.

So what if its doing the same thing over and over again 100/1,000/10,000 times. Some people would be happy to know they killed a scout moving at over 1000 speed, 100/1,000/10,000 times.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
I see achievements as learning tools. Once you learn how to do something, you get an achievement to verify your success. Once you're able to do something, what incentive is there to do it a thousand times more? What's the point of doing something a thousand times when you only need to do it once to verify you were skilled enough or capable?
I see achievements as rewards for doing things. I also see them as fun things to get for doing certain things, or having certain things done to you.

But I don't see them as learning tools unless you have a page that shows what you need to do to get it. After all if you don't know you will get it and you receive it after you have done something without being told how to do it, then how could it be a learning tool. Its like if you came to set of monkey bars. There is no one there to tell you anything about them, but you figure out how to go across them or get on top of them. Then someone comes along and gives you an award, an achievement, would you call that a learning tool? No you would call that an award/achievement for figuring out (learning) how to do something on your own.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
You're suggesting achievements that are simple though monotonous and tedious as protection against people completing achievements too fast. The speed at which someone does achievements is irrelevant. If the achievements are good quality achievements, and someone manages to get through them in an hour, then that player must have learned a lot and got a lot out of them or already had the skill required.
What I am suggesting is that there should be somethings for people to get quickly and there should be somethings that take a while for some people to get no matter if they grind or not.

Achievements are not just for learning, as I pointed out above. They can be rewards and they can be for fun.

I don't know if the FF team are going to put up info on how to get some or all of the achievements but if they don't, then they can not be considered learning tools (see my example about for why). They could only be considered as rewards and for fun.

If the FF team does put up into on how to get some or all of the achievements then the ones they put the info up for could be considered learning tools, but they can also be considered rewards and fun.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bridget View Post
I'd rather blaze through an hour of good quality achievements than waste a week of my time doing shitty achievements. Why is it necessary that achievements take forever? The speed at which someone goes through achievements should be based on how skilled that individual is, not on how poorly designed or repetitive the achievement is. If the user is capable of doing them in an hour, then let him. If the user is not capable, then he will learn something. Filler (what you're suggesting) is unnecessary if you take the first step and actually produce good quality achievements.
Well thats you that you would rather blaze through them all. You remind me of someone that would sit on an achievements server to get everything they can.

I would rather have something that people get rewarded for short term (by blazing through them or just by regular play) AND something that people get rewarded for by doing things in the long term by just playing.


Think of the short term ones as an incentive to start playing the game.
Think of the long term ones as an incentive to keep playing the game.


And even with the long term ones there will be people who just want to grind through them. As long as there are achievements/milestones/whatever you want to call them, there will be people who will want to try to get though all of them for what ever reason.

But there are just as many people (if not more) who will play the game with or without achievements/milestones/whatever you want to call them because they enjoy the game and view achievements/milestones/whatever you want to call them as a bonus (or by some an annoyance).


Quote:
Originally Posted by R00Ki3 View Post
They are both useful, but should be split into two categories. The first being milestones(or whatever) that are generalized for every class, like jumping a zillion times or killing 500 people as a solider. Those being based around long term goals. The next being achievements that you do only once or perhaps a few times in one game, like make 3 captures in a row without dying or air shot a conc jumper with a tranq. These will be based around skill or short term goals.
I have no problem with them being called 2 different things, achievements or milestones, or whatever. Just as long there is something for at least people to look forward to.
Gwarsbane is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 03-02-2010, 09:49 PM   #94
Bridget
Banned
 
Bridget's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Class/Position: Soldier
Gametype: AVD
Affiliations: TALOS
Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
This has been addressed. Each achievement would have tiers, in which they would get progressively harder. If you can't do an achievement, it becomes an indicator of your progress, and you work on the lower end achievements until you better yourself. For example, no one expects a beginner to just pick up the Soldier and airshot someone. So, we do something like so:

1 Pop a player into the air by shooting at their feet.
2 Pop a player into the air and then kill them with the shotgun before they fall.
3 Pop a player into the air and kill them with splash damage.
4 Pop a player into the air and kill them with a direct hit.

If the player finds it difficult to pull off 4, then he will try his skills at pulling off achievement 3. If he can't do achievement 3, then he falls back to achievement 2. Ideally, each achievement should provide the skill necessary for pulling off the next achievement in the tier system.

Now, I have no problem with repetitive tasks here. I just now realize they can be used for good by allowing a player to polish his skills. If he can pop someone into the air and shotgun them, perhaps he wants to do it a couple more times to confirm he can consistently pull it off. Sure, that's fine. However, I don't like achievements that repeat hundreds or thousands of times and repeat useless actions (jump 1,000 times, spin in a circle 500 times, etc) which is what I see being suggested.
Bridget is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 03-02-2010, 11:13 PM   #95
Gwarsbane
Slayer of humans
D&A Member
 
Gwarsbane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Mostly on earth though in some alt dimensions
Class/Position: I'm an Offensive Defensive person
Gametype: Fortress Forever
Affiliations: I'm a merc, only thing that talks is money
Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times
And whats wrong with having both easy and hard ones?

So what if the hard ones are the same thing over and over again. I would like to know when I have stabbed 3 people in a row all within 3 seconds of each other 100 or more times.

I would like to know when i have made people scream 100 or more times.

I would like to know when I have snipped 100 or more people while they are flying in the air.

I would like to know when I have blown up 3 or more people 100 or more times.

I would like to know when I have been made to scream 100 or more times.

I would like to know when I have been killed by an elevator or a fall or my own security in my spawn room 100 or more times.

There are lots of achievements or milestones or what ever you want to call them that I would like to know I have surpassed.


There is ZERO harm in doing what I have suggested, it just lets people know when they have done certain things so many times. Big deal.



I really don't see why you would be fighting this.

Your way will not stop grinders, my way will not stop grinders.

Your way will make achievements pointless to pretty much everyone in the community and any one who comes into the community very quickly.

Your suggestions are only good for people who haven't done much in the game or are new to it. My suggestions will give people who have been around for a while something to look forward to and strive for for a long time to come as well as giving new users feed back on how they are doing (because I am not just suggesting easy stuff like you are).

The teaching ones are a good idea, I have 0 problems with them. But once you done them then what?

Most of the ones I have suggest are not just jump 100 times, or kill someone 100 times. They are combos that can and do happen in the game. And many of those combos are not easy combos.


Again you seem to have a problem with stuff that you need to repeat over and over again to get, if your only problem with them is that you will not be able to grind or as you said blaze away at them to finish them in a single day or even a single week, well then thats just too bad. Most games have ones like these where you have to do some stuff over and over again to get them.

And if there is going to be achievements I want a variety of them. I want easy ones to get, I want hard ones to get, I want ones that are going to take a long time to get, and to do stuff like that, then we are going to have to put up with one that you need to do over and over again, just like in other games.


In dirt 2 there are achievements like you suggest. They are all easy to get to, they are all done while playing the game and 97% of them were completed within the first week of me owning the game (the other ones are online only and I haven't played online yet) (and I would have had them faster if I had played the game more) and I haven't played a driving game for at least 7 or 8 years I think (I can't remember the last time I played it). Anyway, now that I have most of them completed there is no incentive for me to keep playing other then then enjoy me of the game, which is becoming very boring because its the same maps over and over and the latest patch didn't add anything new.

If dirt 2 did my suggestions, then there would be more incentive for me to play more (if achievements meant anything to me which they don't)

But they are going the way of what you suggested which is only simple, easy to get achievements which after a few days everyone has.


Not that this will change your mind, with the way you argue it seems like you just want to argue to argue. I don't understand why you are arguing against long term achievements/milestones/whatever you want to call them. They can only help the community.
Gwarsbane is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 03-03-2010, 12:29 AM   #96
wakka
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Class/Position: top
Gametype: pwning caroline in bed
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwarsbane View Post
Not that this will change your mind, with the way you argue it seems like you just want to argue to argue. I don't understand why you are arguing against long term achievements/milestones/whatever you want to call them. They can only help the community.
been looking for an excuse to try out my new acronym...

QFT
wakka is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 03-03-2010, 02:15 AM   #97
Eon Seig
AaaaaaaTATATATATATATATA!
 
Eon Seig's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Florida
Class/Position: Pyro Scout Soldier / Offense
Gametype: CTF/AvD
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
If I knew what that meant, I would LOL if I could.

I don't mind achievements for long-term progression, and really it can be a good thing if done well. Many people who play TF2 say that the most fun thing about achievements is the "DING" every time they get 1 more point towards an achievement. It makes getting kills that count towards a goal more gratifying. It's almost as if you have your own personal stock ticker, but less noisy and more amusing. It also adds some humor to the game, which while not FF's selling point, it certainly wouldn't hurt to bring in a bit of humor.

Hell, most games like FF and CS eventually devolve into bloody slapstick comedy one way or another, but that doesn't mean the game has to somehow get worse because of it.
Eon Seig is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 03-03-2010, 02:47 AM   #98
Gwarsbane
Slayer of humans
D&A Member
 
Gwarsbane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Mostly on earth though in some alt dimensions
Class/Position: I'm an Offensive Defensive person
Gametype: Fortress Forever
Affiliations: I'm a merc, only thing that talks is money
Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times
For those that don't know QFT = Quoted For Truth Usually means someone likes what you posted.

Last edited by Gwarsbane; 03-03-2010 at 02:48 AM.
Gwarsbane is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 03-03-2010, 03:16 AM   #99
[AE] 82694
Retired FF Staff
 
[AE] 82694's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwarsbane View Post
For those that don't know QFT = Quit Fucking True Usually means someone likes what you posted.
Fixed
__________________
I Love GenghisTron . I miss you sooooo Much. LOL.
[AE] 82694 is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 03-03-2010, 03:51 AM   #100
Desyphur
OHH! OHHH NOOO!
Wiki Team
Beta Tester
 
Desyphur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by [AE] 82694 View Post
Fixed
That's another meaning. So is "Quit Fucking Talking"
__________________
What was left of my sanity implored me not to enter...but that voice was just a whisper now.
Desyphur is offline   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
achievements, learning, orange box, rewards, teaching


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 01:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.