FF_Well - ideas and suggestions

[o_etzell]

Those waterfalls remind me of Terminator 2. But lamer.

[o_sathernut]

FFS KEEP THE GREEN OPAQUE WATER DAMNIT!

[o_stino]

Originally Posted by Player

Currently, in TFC, SGs do not shoot out of the water. Try it on Well, 2fort, Crossover2 and a load of other maps. The SG wont shoot you.

yes it does, just tried, i've build a sentry under the bridge, and if someone gets into the flag room it stats shooting :s:d

[o_player]

Where would this person be standing in order to be shot at then?

[o_painkiller]

I just wanted to put in my own 2 cents since few seem to agree with me in what I read of this thread

In TFC, Well feels smaller than it should, especially in the ramp room. That being said, it's a thing of beauty if you can play it in an 8v8 4O 4D match (very old school).

The hole in the RR ceiling is a strong defensive post, spawn spam is primarily a problem when the D isn't doing their job (and the pipe exit helps them take care of that). Of course, anything that can eliminate or reduce spawn spam is good, you just have to be careful about the effects on the flow of people out of the spawns (don't want to slow down the O or D too much).

A water HW can make life hard for the offense, but if concs actually work right the pipe can still be used as an entry point once a scout or med gets through via the front door to open the way. Spies are also effective at removing the water HW, and gas grens good at keeping them out of position if the effects on those work right.

Most people actually have a tough time defending the flag room itself, especially if conc-jumping is working well for the offense, but you still have to get the flag out of the enemy base, and flag returns are a common event on well.

It's one of my favorite maps as a conc-jumpin' soldier-fightin' HW-hatin' medic, and I'd really hate to see too many changes to make it easier for either the O or the D. It's a thing of beauty that has been mistreated in the past.

[mervaka]

can we see the ceiling in the silo roof for once? it might give the room a bigger feel to it. give it skylights or something

[o_nezumi]

It may as well be an outdoor courtyard. I mean, it has a silo in it...

[o_jarek]

someone mentioned something about making the pipe sharkable.

i agree with this to an extent, but make it to where u have to use a conc while in the water to do this (for example on schtop in tfc, u can drop a conc in the entrance to water route and shark all the way to the water ramp and save easily 10 seconds)

in other words, leave breathing space at the top of the pipe... tho that may also detract from the water route strategy as it is.

[o_fresh]

why not bring the pipe up a notch, so it is above water hight. and just give it a sewage type shallow water run with a few obstacles in. This would mean snipers could be used as they would be standing as opposed to shooting.

failing that you could put a pipe in the water run with a ladder that goes up into the attic or the RR. This would draw the hev atleast a quater of the way if not half way down the pipe commiting him to the one defensive position if the chose so.

[o_geokill----->]

[o_rizzo]

Just make sure you can shark in the water pipe, like in tfc!

[Jiggles]

Since FF will have sharking, can we have it play the Jaws theme while we're doing it? I think it would help the new players get a feel for it

[o_dragonjojo]

That's a good Q for the ask the dev's topic Jiggles.

[o_loyus]

Originally Posted by PHISH

The spawns should probably be moved backwards or adjusted in some manner... it is also at the expense of very little skill needed on the FD defenders part. There probably needs to be some tweaking between the interplay of the fd entrance and the respawns.

Glad to see you again folks

About well, from what I can recall, it hasn't been always true that the 2 front soldiers were the best front defense, especially in 1016 where the SG + solly combo was still popular. That's because of the concs grenades (and also the fact that the new netcode made the normal grenades overpowered, as suddenly poor throws still made a great amount of damage = hello efficient spam).

Well became extremely difficult to attack when the concs grenades became a joke. Before they got nerfed, skilled scouts were a deadly weapon on Well (sorry Afx, but I really think the scout class was killed with this patch, even if we had great ones like you, you could have been even more greater before), as they would enjoy all the space that this maps offers. And one well extremely important feature is that it has a weak SG spot in FR.

If the FF scout and medic are like the 1016 ones, and if concs grens also work like in the 1016, you shouldn't worry about making the path to FR easier.

I also don't agree that well should be played ala "old school 4/4", I find that TFC has brought an elegance to the gameplay I can't find anywhere else, especially not in quake or q3 mods. To me, TFC is to Quake TF mods what soccer is to indoor soccer. I liked the 5/3 configuration of Well, especially before TF1.5.

[o_afx]

Originally Posted by Loyus

Well became extremely difficult to attack when the concs grenades became a joke. Before they got nerfed, skilled scouts were a deadly weapon on Well (sorry Afx, but I really think the scout class was killed with this patch, even if we had great ones like you, you could have been even more greater before), as they would enjoy all the space that this maps offers. And one well extremely important feature is that it has a weak SG spot in FR.

If the FF scout and medic are like the 1016 ones, and if concs grens also work like in the 1016, you shouldn't worry about making the path to FR easier.

I also don't agree that well should be played ala "old school 4/4", I find that TFC has brought an elegance to the gameplay I can't find anywhere else, especially not in quake or q3 mods. To me, TFC is to Quake TF mods what soccer is to indoor soccer. I liked the 5/3 configuration of Well, especially before TF1.5.

I dont doubt that in many ways youre correct loyus and theres no question that from pre 1016 to bunnyhop era and then to now that the level of things that could be achieved has diminished somewhat. I remember some amazing moves were possible in pre 1016, sadly back then people were still learning the game a lot more and so never really discovered just what was possible. However i personally think the bunnyhop era was the pinnacle, Full powered concs were simply that bit too much and due to the size of tfc's maps you would really have struggled to utilise that extra power.

Personally, i think that when concs were toned down and people actually learned real control and yet still retained the full speed bhopping, is the time when tfc was at its best. Sadly whilst something did need to be done about the soldier full speed bhop attack(how i dread to think how tfc would be now, if people had fully learnt to use this) meaning that we got bhop toned down, i do think it was to the detriment of scout/medic and the game as a whole, And depending on what the ff team does about this then you could be correct that well wont really need to be made easier to attack. Whatever eat comes up with though i should imagine theres no reason why the map cant be altered at some point in a later patch to reflect the needs of the gameplay.

I guess some of us are a bit caught up in the way tfc is now and how the current tfc map needs to be altered, rather than speculating about how FF will be.

[o_stino]

Originally Posted by Player

Where would this person be standing in order to be shot at then?

srry for late response, but if you stand on the lifts for example you will get shot by that sentry

[o_neotic]

My biggest turn off about TFC was that they made so many of the classic QWTF maps look like shitty toxic plants. Go back to the classic appeal of QuakeWorld, please!

[o_loyus]

Originally Posted by Afx

However i personally think the bunnyhop era was the pinnacle, Full powered concs were simply that bit too much and due to the size of tfc's maps you would really have struggled to utilise that extra power.

Hmmm... The TF 1.5 patch saw a lot of top players leaving the game (the first generation of top players), and there was a gap until new top players / clans filled it (we became really strong with UE at this time). To be honest, I almost dropped it too because I had a ton of practice with concs tricks and most of all, I couldn't see any future with such changes.

The game was dramatically slowed down, and the nerfed concs were a "revolution" (not to mention the dramatically nerfed SGs too). Some top clans like Daywalkers quickly vanished just like some top players like Runesky aka "the legendary scout". Most of all, the scout "almost" disappeared in favor or the medic. I don't wanna fall nostalgic or somewhat, but...

I believe that the strong handheld concussion grenades added something really interesting to the game, and I hope they might be considered by the dev team. I always missed them, all the tricks you could do with it because of their quickness. It was the way of scouts, often the way of medics too, it gived you the power you needed to attack on Well, unlike Bunnyhopping wich only helped you.

A mastered jump could take you anywhere on the map, a failed one could basically waste your attack, hurt you and slow you down like hell. It added a lot of speed as you could travel maps like Well like flash, unless you failed your jump and landed on the sniper roof... It was unique to TFC.

From my point of view, bunnyhopping added a great dimension to the game, and i must agree with you : think the bunnyhop era was the pinnacle. But the strong concs also did add a great dimension to me. When it was taken away, you could feel a loss, something u'd regret. No wonder why the scout almost completly disappeared from clan matches. I think it's possible to make the 2 dimensions coexist, even if I understand it could lead to an overpowered offense if not well tuned.

SGs were amazingly more reactives before TF1.5, you couldn't turn around easily if you weren't a scout (still you could with medics), and you couldn't approach them withtout strongs concs grens (it would still have been difficult with BH only). EMPs were also deadly, a true 2 sided weapon that would sometimes lead to the destruction of everybody if incorrectly used, cleaning the path for off.

Well, i liked that punchy side of TFC.

[Jiggles]

I never really noticed much of a difference between pre and post 1.5 SGs.

The thing you have to remember is that when 1.5 came out, almost no one could HH properly at first. I know the first time I tried after 1.5, I could barely get over the Well yard divider.

Today though, with a good glide conc, you can do almost as much as you could with pre 1.5 concs. The lower powered concs actually give you more ability to manuver yourself on many maps.

[o_fresh]

I think it was sad to have nerf`d tfc like that however it was for the best, possibly the reason people left was because they were top flight players, having to compete again and learn all the new skills, they just couldnt be arsed.