Scout! Where's the incentive?

[GenghisTron]

The only difference between FF's 'jump queue' and TFC's +wait script (or +mwheeldown), is in FF, you can hold down space, as opposed to spamming jump. TFC's bhop was only SLIGHTLY less intuitive. FF has made bunnyhop accessible to more people by hardcoding it into the game, rather than requiring a script.

If you seriously find issue with that... well, I think you need to rethink your stance.

[Bridget]

Bunnyhopping isn't hardcoded into Fortress Forever.

[reaper18]

Originally Posted by Bridget

Bunnyhopping isn't hardcoded into Fortress Forever.

I dont think thats what he meant.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by zelenjava

how come some people were better at it on tfc then?

For the same reasons people are better at bhopping than other people in FF: air control, strafe jumping, etc. No one was better than other people at timing their jumps in TFC (unless you count having a bind as being "better").

The point is, jump timing in TFC didn't take skill. It took knowledge. It's entirely false to say that FF bunnyhopping takes less skill than TFC bunnyhopping because of the jump queue or autojump. If you want to compare and contrast air acceleration, friction, bunnyhop caps, etc of the two games, go ahead. But, timing your jumps requires the same amount of skill between TFC and FF: zero.

[GenghisTron]

Originally Posted by Bridget

Bunnyhopping isn't hardcoded into Fortress Forever.

The fact that you don't need to go onto a third-party website to download a script to exploit a bug in the game code... well yeah....

[zelenjava]

Originally Posted by squeek.

For the same reasons people are better at bhopping than other people in FF: air control, strafe jumping, etc. No one was better than other people at timing their jumps in TFC (unless you count having a bind as being "better").

The point is, jump timing in TFC didn't take skill. It took knowledge. It's entirely false to say that FF bunnyhopping takes less skill than TFC bunnyhopping because of the jump queue or autojump. If you want to compare and contrast air acceleration, friction, bunnyhop caps, etc of the two games, go ahead. But, timing your jumps requires the same amount of skill between TFC and FF: zero.

It's surprising how many people say and believe that, that is false. The timing of the jump was the most important factor in speed on TFC. Delaying the jump, combining duck to go that little bit faster over the speed cap. Waving the mouse around and strafe etc are all part of building up speed sure. The art was keeping the speed.

[Player]

It's all in the strafe!

People had jump scripted or bound to the mousewheel, so any timing required was removed, and that cannot be argued. Sure, jumping is THE most important factor as it enables bunny hopping; however, the jumping DOES NOT build speed, it opens the path for speed manipulation. That is accomplished by strafing. Everything from speed gain and speed maintence is done by strafe control, not jump control.

The ONLY thing(s) that separates a novice from an expert bunny hopper (in TFC, Fortress Forever, CPMA, Warsow etc.) is the way in which they strafe...and map knowledge, I suppose.

And thus to the point: having auto-timed jumps does not equate to auto-bunny hopping!

[Raynian]

Back to the original point of this thread...

How about increasing the base movement speed of the scout by 20 units, without changing the bhop cap. It'd make scout better for newbies without drastically changing the effect in competitive play.

And remove the jump pad, bring back caltrops.

[Bridget]

I wouldn't give up the jump pad for caltrops. They're useless.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by zelenjava

It's surprising how many people say and believe that, that is false. The timing of the jump was the most important factor in speed on TFC. Delaying the jump, combining duck to go that little bit faster over the speed cap. Waving the mouse around and strafe etc are all part of building up speed sure. The art was keeping the speed.

As Player said, strafing is NOT jump timing. I refuse to believe that there is any benefit to "delaying your jump" in TFC and even if there is, I refuse to believe anyone could do it consistently, given that the delay would have to be in the milliseconds (and any jump;wait script or mwheel bind would make it impossible). Unless there is a super, ultra hidden mechanic that made you gain speed when you timed your jump a specific way that I didn't know about, there is a perfect jump timing in TFC (when you lose no speed in between jumps). That perfect jump timing can be achieved consistently with a jump script. That means the only thing that separates people in the realm of jump timing is the knowledge of the appropriate script/bind.

Using duck, navigating around the hard cap, using your mouse, and using strafe are separate from the jump timing, and all certainly do require skill.

[wakka]

Have to completely agree with Zelenjava on the jump timing topic. The first thing you had to do was time your jumps which was a skill in itself, the whole incorporating pressing jump along with your strafe keys made it even harder.

Jump timing was a HUGE thing for keeping a consistent speed, having to perfect that along with crouching is what made good bunnyhoppers the best bunnyhoppers and I really don't know why that point is being argued upon because it's more fact than speculation.

On topic though I think it would be more of an incentive to cap if you got 10Kills for capping a flag, nobody cares about scores they care about kills.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by wakka

I really don't know why that point is being argued upon because it's more fact than speculation.

Because the FF forums are like the goddamn Twilight Zone as far as reality goes.

[mervaka]

Originally Posted by wakka

On topic though I think it would be more of an incentive to cap if you got 10Kills for capping a flag, nobody cares about scores they care about kills.

in which case i think we need to address that. we want people to care about their score more than their k/d ratio.

[chilledsanity]

Mervaka: Well the easiest way to do that is make it so you can't see the number of kills by other players (only your own). I can't think of another solution where players would pay more attention to the score.

Even score is kind of slanted though. I mean a player can do 95% of the footwork on moving a flag, then if someone comes in and caps it, they get the 1000 points.

[Bridget]

Fortress Points are useless, that cap benefits the entire team.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by wakka

Jump timing was a HUGE thing for keeping a consistent speed, having to perfect that along with crouching is what made good bunnyhoppers the best bunnyhoppers and I really don't know why that point is being argued upon because it's more fact than speculation.

Out of interest, what is the difference between a good bunnyhopper and the best bunnyhopper? How exactly do you even measure it? Does it provide any benefit in terms of gameplay? Is it so large that being "the best bunnyhopper" actually means something in a match environment?

EDIT: By the way, all that skill is still not really a function of the jump timing itself, it's a function of the brick wall hard cap.

[wakka]

Originally Posted by squeek.

Out of interest, what is the difference between a good bunnyhopper and the best bunnyhopper? How exactly do you even measure it? Does it provide any benefit in terms of gameplay? Is it so large that being "the best bunnyhopper" actually means something in a match environment?

EDIT: By the way, all that skill is still not really a function of the jump timing itself, it's a function of the brick wall hard cap.

I really don't wish to stray more off topic here Squeek as this thread is not a bunnyhop discussion, however I think that even just from spectating you can notice the difference between the best and just someone who is good. You don't need numbers for everything and like strafing, jump timing requires practice and consistency to achieve great results.

[zelenjava]

Originally Posted by squeek.

As Player said, strafing is NOT jump timing. I refuse to believe that there is any benefit to "delaying your jump" in TFC and even if there is, I refuse to believe anyone could do it consistently, given that the delay would have to be in the milliseconds (and any jump;wait script or mwheel bind would make it impossible). Unless there is a super, ultra hidden mechanic that made you gain speed when you timed your jump a specific way that I didn't know about, there is a perfect jump timing in TFC (when you lose no speed in between jumps). That perfect jump timing can be achieved consistently with a jump script. That means the only thing that separates people in the realm of jump timing is the knowledge of the appropriate script/bind.

Using duck, navigating around the hard cap, using your mouse, and using strafe are separate from the jump timing, and all certainly do require skill.

The fastest i ever went on TFC was +jump on space. Scripts just made it easier to do lazy bunnyop, timing would always suffer because you can just hit it whenever and still perform the technique.

To get back on topic. The real issue is simply that FF is extremly easy as it is, especially scout. Most new players who take to playing organised CTF will take to scout because its the easiest. Secondly, if you do make these classes any easier you really will lose the core of the pickup community, these channels are less and less active and people rarely play including myself.

[Crazycarl]

Originally Posted by zelenjava

The fastest i ever went on TFC was +jump on space. Scripts just made it easier to do lazy bunnyop, timing would always suffer because you can just hit it whenever and still perform the technique.

To get back on topic. The real issue is simply that FF is extremly easy as it is, especially scout. Most new players who take to playing organised CTF will take to scout because its the easiest. Secondly, if you do make these classes any easier you really will lose the core of the pickup community, these channels are less and less active and people rarely play including myself.

This post makes no sense. To bhop in TFC you had to jump exactly when you hit the ground. There was no benefit to having more precise timing over using a script.

How can all classes become easier? One class counters the other. So if it's easier to play engy, it's harder to play scout. If the game is balanced, how does making the game easier to play cause people to leave? If, in your opinion, the classes are not balanced, how should it be fixed?

[zelenjava]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

This post makes no sense. To bhop in TFC you had to jump exactly when you hit the ground. There was no benefit to having more precise timing over using a script.

How can all classes become easier? One class counters the other. So if it's easier to play engy, it's harder to play scout. If the game is balanced, how does making the game easier to play cause people to leave? If, in your opinion, the classes are not balanced, how should it be fixed?

When you conc and land in TFC, if you try to bhop you cant because you are going over the speed limit. However if your timing was good you could delay the first jump so that you glide a little then go straight into full speed bunnyhop. Jumping as soon as you hit the ground after each hop meant you couldnt glide at all. So i guess what i'm saying is in bunnyhop on tfc you could glide just that little bit before the next jump if your timing was good to give you that extra bit of speed overall.