New TF2 Interview - Page 8

radio · 03-30-2007, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cr0c0dile

Haha people are ridiculous.
What are the things most talked about over the last few years for why TFC was no longer growing or isn't more popular.
Oh it is very noob unfriendly! Yes that is the general consensus. If only there was a way to teach new players about bunnyhopping and concjumping etc etc the masses cried. Then they would understand and love the game.
TF2 comes with a system to teach new players about the game, and now the same people say "WTF that game is too noob friendly vavle isn't making the game for us experts!"
Another complaint about TFC that is the widely held view and has been for years and years is that the primary grenades ruin the gameplay. This view point is so widely held that special versions of maps were made and made default in leagues that take out these grenades from the gameplay. For years I heard players whining online that " Oh you have no skill you have to use grenades cause you need em". Now valve has removed the grenades and all we hear is "WTF no grenades, grenades are a skill this is for noobs"
TF2 is the answer to all of your whining but now it is clear that you people just like to whine.

yeah man. you know what is too hard also? soccer. i wanna score tons of goals but it's just stupid that i can't carry the ball on my hands and run it in. why make the game harder than it could be? just silly, right?

that's what the developers in tf2 are making it look like. that's why people are outraged. are they right? no. no one is right. it's just that many people see it as a boring and uninspiring move to make tf2 like that.

it's not too hard to figure this out yourself.

do also consider what psycnet said.

mistermojo · 03-30-2007, 05:34 PM

there are ways of making newbies learn the game other than simply removing the elements

the problem with tfc was that the skills weren't obvious at all, unlike cs. in cs, if you died, you'd pick up on what the top players did, even if you couldn't do it for a long time. in tfc, you couldnt watch a player and figure out how to conc or bunnyhop

if, like ff, they added hints, or added quake like bhop, it would make the game easier for newbies to learn and keep the skills people like

same with grenades, why not decrease their damage radius, decrease nade pickups and decrease the number of nades players have? removing them is easier but not better

fishBurger · 03-30-2007, 05:49 PM

everything that is not noob-friendly or completely intuitive just increases the playability of the game.
I played TFC for a while and sucked but it was pretty fun, and my attention was waning some, and then I played on a hunted server and noticed a conc-jump for the first time. It pretty much blew my mind, and I about wet myself the first time I dropped a conc on the ramp and positioned myself above it to fly up to b1 roof. After that I spent hours a day playing on hunted-only servers for months. months and months. I'm not the best concjumper ever, but I got better, and after practicing and getting better (which made me enjoy it more) I could conc myself or a heavy or the pres around to pretty much anywhere...

playability + replayability increased exponentially.

Hawk Eye · 03-30-2007, 06:02 PM

^^ so let us then hope that there will be other things left undiscovered in TF2. Just because there isn't concing, doesn't mean there won't be something new and exciting to be found and mastered.

Defrag · 03-30-2007, 06:21 PM

I think it's sounding like they've finally realised that it needed big changes to appeal to the masses once more. I personally like the sound of what they're doing. It's no great secret that CTF is on the way out compared to newer game styles -- it's harder to get everyone on the same page if there's multiple objectives on a pub server.

GhOsT · 03-30-2007, 06:30 PM

Also, it's not like they took CTF completely out. It's still there and if there's a big enough demand from the community for it then people can make their own CTF maps.

I agree that these new styles do play much better in pubs. Take your standard 2fort pub. The team makeup usually consists of 2-3 snipers sitting on the sniper deck having a sniper war with the 2-3 snipers on the other side. A couple engies running around building guns all over the place. A couple heavies, usually outside in the yard. A soldier or 2 actually playing a defensive position. Then there are 1 or 2 medics maybe trying to get the enemy flag. It basically just boils down to team deathmatch with classes.

On the other hand, look at how popular dustbowl became as a pub map. It's just easy for people to understand what should be happening. People try to advance the flag or stop people from advancing it. The whole team is trying to work together to accomplish the same goal instead of trying to have half the team defend and the other half attack. Another side effect is that snipers actually become useful due to long open areas and help out the team instead of shooting each other.

Defrag · 03-30-2007, 06:33 PM

Exactly. Previous to this round of interviews it sounded like TF2 was just going to be TFC with a few tweaks and new visuals. Either they were being guarded in their comments, or they were just experimenting a lot and hadn't quite found their range just yet. It sounds like the game is really starting to come together now and I'm sure there'll be more interesting stuff to come

radio · 03-30-2007, 07:45 PM

well fps games as a whole are on their way out. all what i'm saying now is highly hyphothetical but methinks that unless etqw manages to grab the cake big fashion (which i doubt) we are hitting the dusk side for real. people are getting enough of wow and this spring is just the right time to strike. unless something fps related gets big attention before Q4 of 2007 i don't think anything will after that. the uniting fps experience that brings gamers from different shooters has been missing for quite a long while now.

i'm guessing the next big thing will be fps + mmorpg combined. when this happens, i don't know.

we'll see but this is what i'm thinking.

mistermojo · 03-30-2007, 07:57 PM

fps games are not on the way out, theyre the biggest sellers on consoles except for the odd games (wow, gta, the sims)

right now, gears of war and halo 2 are the most played games on 360

radio · 03-30-2007, 08:05 PM

i was thinking pc. but yours is still a valid point though.

**squeek.** · 03-30-2007, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by radio

...i'm guessing the next big thing will be fps + mmorpg combined. when this happens, i don't know...

There are a few out right now, including one free game called Gunz. I played it for a while but at high levels there are only RIDICULOUS players that know special jumping/shooting/fighting techniques that are out of control (butterflying, etc). Korean people dominate it. I could only do a small amount of butterflying after a LONG time of practicing. If you want a game that gets very noob-unfriendly very fast, its Gunz.

Edit: Heres a video on some of the Kstyle moves http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGe6N_jgs60
and the finger movements that go with it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQj33OEA_Y4

Ihmhi · 03-30-2007, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by radio

i'm guessing the next big thing will be fps + mmorpg combined. when this happens, i don't know.

Hijack: I am in the design phase of such a freeware project myself. Download for free, play single player campaign for free, then play online for free. Server will be donation supported.

It will be a MMORPG. The first person shooter element comes in for the magic spells. Let us say there is a Firebolt spell. The game will be in third person, but the movement controls will be first person. If you want to toss a fireball at someone, there are no bullshit hit% calculations. You aim the god damned thing and spooge it out, and if you aim well you hit them. Boo-yah.

I will make a post here when my design documents are complete (which will probably take a few months at most). I needs people who are willing to work for free on a good project. ^.^

Oh, btw radio, the type of game you are talking about is called a "MMOFPS".

radio · 03-30-2007, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squeek.

Edit: Heres a video on some of the Kstyle moves http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGe6N_jgs60
and the finger movements that go with it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQj33OEA_Y4

talk about powerplaying.

i've always been for unrealistic physics in computer games but then again that was the time before anime was big... sheesh. i mean this running on walls and adhd-esque flailing around with swords and guns... there just are some things a man can't digest.

Quote:

Oh, btw radio, the type of game you are talking about is called a "MMOFPS".

should have figured this out but i didn't. i feel dumb now

**mervaka** · 03-30-2007, 10:37 PM

i do admit the last year or two of FPSes have been utter crap compared to the boom we had previously. the last *great* FPS was UT, which was the birth of a whole new series.

and a MMOFPS would fucking rock! imagine a full scale war!

SizeableSSonic · 03-30-2007, 10:53 PM

PlanetSide?

AmazingNurseEnrique · 03-30-2007, 10:57 PM

Planetside suffered in raw combat mechanics and the fact that the objectives weren't meaningful enough. Persistent world gaming is a strong place to go, especially for FPS, as long as they don't get it confused with an RPG and include a power-over-time element. Good "sticky" rewards in an MMOFPS would be territory, aesthetic rewards (shinies) such as weapon and armor skins, things that don't effect combat at all. I'm scared of games like Huxley because they have a power-over-time element, which no longer makes them "the best player wins" sort of games.

Circuitous · 03-31-2007, 01:17 PM

Huxley is prolly the one MMO I could really get behind.

Nezumi · 04-01-2007, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by radio

i'm guessing the next big thing will be fps + mmorpg combined. when this happens, i don't know

It's called Promised Land, and I've already got a novels worth of design docs written up, as well as some 'blocking out' of locations in hammer. Unfortunately, thanks to the slowness of the current version of the internet, it simply would not work.

Oh well. Someday when I have a successful game development company behind me and a much faster network to work with...
(p.s. it is power over time. It's a full on RPG. The goal for me is to balance this with skill levels, i.e. the best players can overcome something like 10 levels worth of XP over the average player, or whatever)

Anyway, I'm really really looking foreward to Huxley.

GhOsT · 04-01-2007, 02:14 PM

I'm looking forward to Huxley as well. Unfortunately that is probably at least a year away.

Hired-Gun · 04-05-2007, 09:33 PM

Well this is Valves game,and its a new game ,not TFC so maybe this game will make a new start for the old TFC players,and good start for the noobs.
In my eyes it looks like a great start,most of the TF players has to start from scratch.
No Mr 1337 and noob situation from start...

03-30-2007, 05:49 PM	#143
fishBurger get off my lawn Join Date: Mar 2007 Class/Position: O scout / demo Gametype: killing Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	everything that is not noob-friendly or completely intuitive just increases the playability of the game. I played TFC for a while and sucked but it was pretty fun, and my attention was waning some, and then I played on a hunted server and noticed a conc-jump for the first time. It pretty much blew my mind, and I about wet myself the first time I dropped a conc on the ramp and positioned myself above it to fly up to b1 roof. After that I spent hours a day playing on hunted-only servers for months. months and months. I'm not the best concjumper ever, but I got better, and after practicing and getting better (which made me enjoy it more) I could conc myself or a heavy or the pres around to pretty much anywhere... playability + replayability increased exponentially. __________________ That means that either you are an American, or you are NOT an American. There is no hyphenated exception. -Iggy

03-30-2007, 06:21 PM	#145
Defrag Retired FF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Scotland Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I think it's sounding like they've finally realised that it needed big changes to appeal to the masses once more. I personally like the sound of what they're doing. It's no great secret that CTF is on the way out compared to newer game styles -- it's harder to get everyone on the same page if there's multiple objectives on a pub server. __________________ Fortress Forever. Level Designer, Gameplay Dude and whatnot.

03-30-2007, 06:33 PM	#147
Defrag Retired FF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Scotland Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Exactly. Previous to this round of interviews it sounded like TF2 was just going to be TFC with a few tweaks and new visuals. Either they were being guarded in their comments, or they were just experimenting a lot and hadn't quite found their range just yet. It sounds like the game is really starting to come together now and I'm sure there'll be more interesting stuff to come __________________ Fortress Forever. Level Designer, Gameplay Dude and whatnot.

03-30-2007, 10:37 PM	#154
mervaka A Very Sound Guy! Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: May 2005 Location: UK Posts Rated Helpful 15 Times	i do admit the last year or two of FPSes have been utter crap compared to the boom we had previously. the last great FPS was UT, which was the birth of a whole new series. and a MMOFPS would fucking rock! imagine a full scale war! __________________ Support FF:

03-30-2007, 05:34 PM	#142
mistermojo the pumps dont work Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	there are ways of making newbies learn the game other than simply removing the elements the problem with tfc was that the skills weren't obvious at all, unlike cs. in cs, if you died, you'd pick up on what the top players did, even if you couldn't do it for a long time. in tfc, you couldnt watch a player and figure out how to conc or bunnyhop if, like ff, they added hints, or added quake like bhop, it would make the game easier for newbies to learn and keep the skills people like same with grenades, why not decrease their damage radius, decrease nade pickups and decrease the number of nades players have? removing them is easier but not better

03-30-2007, 06:02 PM	#144
Hawk Eye Who the fuck is this guy? D&A Member Beta Tester Join Date: Mar 2007 Class/Position: O Preferred Gametype: AvD Affiliations: [AE] Asseaters Posts Rated Helpful 2 Times	^^ so let us then hope that there will be other things left undiscovered in TF2. Just because there isn't concing, doesn't mean there won't be something new and exciting to be found and mastered.

03-30-2007, 06:30 PM	#146
GhOsT Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Also, it's not like they took CTF completely out. It's still there and if there's a big enough demand from the community for it then people can make their own CTF maps. I agree that these new styles do play much better in pubs. Take your standard 2fort pub. The team makeup usually consists of 2-3 snipers sitting on the sniper deck having a sniper war with the 2-3 snipers on the other side. A couple engies running around building guns all over the place. A couple heavies, usually outside in the yard. A soldier or 2 actually playing a defensive position. Then there are 1 or 2 medics maybe trying to get the enemy flag. It basically just boils down to team deathmatch with classes. On the other hand, look at how popular dustbowl became as a pub map. It's just easy for people to understand what should be happening. People try to advance the flag or stop people from advancing it. The whole team is trying to work together to accomplish the same goal instead of trying to have half the team defend and the other half attack. Another side effect is that snipers actually become useful due to long open areas and help out the team instead of shooting each other.

03-30-2007, 07:45 PM	#148
radio Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	well fps games as a whole are on their way out. all what i'm saying now is highly hyphothetical but methinks that unless etqw manages to grab the cake big fashion (which i doubt) we are hitting the dusk side for real. people are getting enough of wow and this spring is just the right time to strike. unless something fps related gets big attention before Q4 of 2007 i don't think anything will after that. the uniting fps experience that brings gamers from different shooters has been missing for quite a long while now. i'm guessing the next big thing will be fps + mmorpg combined. when this happens, i don't know. we'll see but this is what i'm thinking.

03-30-2007, 07:57 PM	#149
mistermojo the pumps dont work Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	fps games are not on the way out, theyre the biggest sellers on consoles except for the odd games (wow, gta, the sims) right now, gears of war and halo 2 are the most played games on 360

03-30-2007, 08:05 PM	#150
radio Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	i was thinking pc. but yours is still a valid point though.

03-30-2007, 10:53 PM	#155
SizeableSSonic Joystick Junkie D&A Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: I know where YOU live! Class/Position: Engineer or Sniper Gametype: CTF Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	PlanetSide?

03-30-2007, 10:57 PM	#156
AmazingNurseEnrique Alcoholocaust Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Seattle, WA Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Planetside suffered in raw combat mechanics and the fact that the objectives weren't meaningful enough. Persistent world gaming is a strong place to go, especially for FPS, as long as they don't get it confused with an RPG and include a power-over-time element. Good "sticky" rewards in an MMOFPS would be territory, aesthetic rewards (shinies) such as weapon and armor skins, things that don't effect combat at all. I'm scared of games like Huxley because they have a power-over-time element, which no longer makes them "the best player wins" sort of games.

03-31-2007, 01:17 PM	#157
Circuitous Useless Retired FF Staff Join Date: Jun 2005 Class/Position: D Soldier, O Scout Gametype: AvD Posts Rated Helpful 9 Times	Huxley is prolly the one MMO I could really get behind.

04-01-2007, 02:14 PM	#159
GhOsT Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I'm looking forward to Huxley as well. Unfortunately that is probably at least a year away.

04-05-2007, 09:33 PM	#160
Hired-Gun HG'S ARMAMENTS Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sweden,the land of sin and vodka Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Well this is Valves game,and its a new game ,not TFC so maybe this game will make a new start for the old TFC players,and good start for the noobs. In my eyes it looks like a great start,most of the TF players has to start from scratch. No Mr 1337 and noob situation from start...

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