Why are map aspects/modes never really mixed?

o_fresh · 10-05-2005, 01:21 PM

Ive seen it done on a few maps, but theres nothing mainstream that mixes aspects of play, like gas, keycards, and CTF play.

maps where you have to take a keycard from yours base, to deactivate the security for the flag. (ive seen this done before).

or a map where a certain ammount of damage has to be inflicted upon a control panel, for the security to go down.

or a map where you have to capure a keycard and unlock the flag, thats in your own base.

or a standard CTF with 2 flags, where both flags need to be present for a cap.

Or a CTF with gas or whatever!

o_nezumi · 10-05-2005, 01:32 PM

This is a very good point, Fresh. New and exciting map types keep the gameplay fresh and... uh... new and exciting.

Actually, ff_harbor is basically a mix between CTF and Hunted, if you think about it.

The whole TF goal thingy allows you to go wild and make whatever you want, and I'm surprised that more people dont (didn't), considering how healthy the TFC mapping community is (was).

o_fisheye · 10-05-2005, 01:33 PM

or something like getting a keycard that lets you get past the autosentry that's gaurding the train that takes you to a store where you find a hidden soccer ball that allows you to get past the autosentry at the next stop that's gaurding the flags that allow access to the showeroom where the naked lady is?

^copyright protected, btw.

o_nezumi · 10-05-2005, 01:36 PM

No, too late fisheye. I've already got a map almost exactly like that in progress.

o_jinx · 10-05-2005, 02:00 PM

There was at least one popular map where you had to take your flag to the enemy base to cap it. I can't remember the name and it's killing me lol. That was an interesting setup, and quite brutal.

Since Ramparts is my first Source map, and my first TF map, I decided to go for a more standard layout and setup. Something not too ambitious that I know I can finish and get some experience on. But I'll go crazy on my second one bwaha!

o_yohan1973 · 10-05-2005, 02:17 PM

I completely understand your concerns. However it's too early to tell if we will see a rise in the number of levels that offer unque gameplay. The FF entities have yet to be released. However, in the past I think it came down to the difficulty of editing enities. I mean most mappers just waite for someone else to come up with the entities and drop them into their map. Murderball for example. that was a first! I'm sure other people had thought of it but no one had came up with the entities untill that. Once murderball was out people simply took the entities from it! I think that if the FF team puts together a really detailed tutorial (yet simple in explaination) on entities...we will see some creative game plays come out too.

o_kam · 10-05-2005, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinx

There was at least one popular map where you had to take your flag to the enemy base to cap it. I can't remember the name and it's killing me lol. That was an interesting setup, and quite brutal.

I think he meant something a bit more cRaZyGoNuTs than simple reverse CTF. Torch2 is the most commonly played RCTF map.

Jiggles · 10-05-2005, 03:46 PM

Creek had some pretty crazy gameplay; it was really a precursor to the more "modern" assault-style maps.

I think the reason that most maps aren't like this is because:
a. harder to make
b. harder to learn

Still, I would welcome them as long as the objectives are made obvious.

o_fresh · 10-05-2005, 03:54 PM

even if its a flag in some glass tube, and you have to activate a console with a kaycard for the tube to lower into the floor, its better than this constant lazers over a small flag holding.

o_jinx · 10-05-2005, 03:55 PM

yeah, Jiggles. and it's frustrating to spend a lot of time on a unique map, and then have people not like it because.. it's unique... lol.

o_[wtf?]chemical burn · 10-05-2005, 05:20 PM

People rarely read the .txt file to even see if it's CTF/RTFC/A-D etc... let alone to read instructions on how to play a new, unique gameplay style. I tried mixing hunted with attack defend once and in a 30 minute playtest about 2 people knew wtf was going on.

o_fisheye · 10-05-2005, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nezumi

No, too late fisheye. I've already got a map almost exactly like that in progress.

hehe, not quite. my description was the ending of a concmap, fishyconc3 (or fishyconc3_r if you want the version that doesn't crash linux servers), that i released a couple of years ago. :P

o_thenuke0 · 10-05-2005, 09:36 PM

the direction signs on the map itself make it easy to learn.

o_aazumak · 10-06-2005, 01:18 AM

i dont know what game your talking about but in moh radiant you can set something to explode upon a certain amount of damaged recieved. if you wanted to you could simply leave out the explosion and leave say an open door to the flag

o_fisheye · 10-06-2005, 01:58 AM

did anyone ever play headz's smurfescape map? it's civ class co-op escape type map, but had the civ model replaced with a smurf.

instead of getting a ball that let you walk on lava, headz asked me to make a pair of fireproof boots. then we came up with the idea of a big hat model that stops you getting hurt in a tunnel cave-in, wings on a belt that reduce your gravity, and the smurfette nappy that gives the wearer extra bouyancy. there's also a couple of shiny new keys, but they only spin above the players head. the rest are made to fit onto the smurf model. boots on feet, nappy on arse etc.

no doubt the FF entity setup will allow for the the same type of thing, so variations in gameplay will really be down to how creative the mappers can be.

trepid_jesse · 10-06-2005, 03:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by [WTF?

Chemical Burn]People rarely read the .txt file to even see if it's CTF/RTFC/A-D etc... let alone to read instructions on how to play a new, unique gameplay style. I tried mixing hunted with attack defend once and in a 30 minute playtest about 2 people knew wtf was going on.

Haha, see, crazy Brian knows what's up.

There were lots of unique/crazy maps for TFC, but people didn't wanna play them the way they played their every day maps. They wanted a few different types of maps with a bunch of small variations to individual aspects of those maps, and then play these completely different maps from time to time.

Playing all those crazy fun ass maps was just like some fun thing to go randomly do, but inevitably revert back to playin' the same map they'd played 8,941 times before.

o_kam · 10-06-2005, 05:27 AM

Some people couldn't even figure out scrummage :/

Smurf escape was awesome but killed your fps

o_nezumi · 10-06-2005, 07:52 AM

Perhaps the solution could be to include maps with widely varied gameplay types as standard maps. This might make a bunch of pub servers include them in their regular rotation, and get people interested in them.

Also there's a bunch of stuff you can do to help people out, like displaying messages on their screen when they spawn. Actually, the audio announcements like 'your team has the enemy flag' might be hard to use for other gametypes where they'd actually be usefull, unless you made your own custome ones.

o_fresh · 10-06-2005, 10:41 AM

simple. put them in a league.

then clans are forced to learn them, and in turn put them on servers.

obv wireplay have been smurfing clans with gay maps for years, so it wont be hard.

also, unique does not have to mean a map is complicated, even if unique is just putting a key card in SD2 to deactivate the power, or doors instead of lazers.

I always had a brilliant idea of having the flag on fire, flames roaring from it, and when you touched it or went within an inch of it you died. and you had to activate a sprinkler system to kill the flames. This is a basic security/flag access just in a different way, we should see more inventive, but not nesseserily complicated ways of getting the flag.

Defrag · 10-06-2005, 01:48 PM

We've got quite a few ideas on new gameplay ideas, mixing many gameplay types. Some people have got very creative in the past and those maps were a blast to play (and more fun for new players).

Examples of awesome maps that were off the wall to an extent:

invect3 (inflicting damage on an area to win)
nuclear (aka how I learned to stop worrying and love the bomb :P)
nml3 (detpack the bridge to win)
creek (launch the rocket, I had such god damn good fun on this map when people actually played it)
mooncheese (nuff said)

We're thinking of cutting back the initial maplist in terms of CTF maps and starting with a smaller maplist with more variety, more AD maps and such. I don't think having a large maplist full of CTF is going to help the mod as much as plenty of AD stuff would. Obviously any new game type stuff would have to be intuitive and easy to pick up.

10-05-2005, 01:21 PM	#1
o_fresh Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Brum. Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Why are map aspects/modes never really mixed? Ive seen it done on a few maps, but theres nothing mainstream that mixes aspects of play, like gas, keycards, and CTF play. maps where you have to take a keycard from yours base, to deactivate the security for the flag. (ive seen this done before). or a map where a certain ammount of damage has to be inflicted upon a control panel, for the security to go down. or a map where you have to capure a keycard and unlock the flag, thats in your own base. or a standard CTF with 2 flags, where both flags need to be present for a cap. Or a CTF with gas or whatever!

10-06-2005, 01:48 PM	#20
Defrag Retired FF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Scotland Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	We've got quite a few ideas on new gameplay ideas, mixing many gameplay types. Some people have got very creative in the past and those maps were a blast to play (and more fun for new players). Examples of awesome maps that were off the wall to an extent: invect3 (inflicting damage on an area to win) nuclear (aka how I learned to stop worrying and love the bomb :P) nml3 (detpack the bridge to win) creek (launch the rocket, I had such god damn good fun on this map when people actually played it) mooncheese (nuff said) We're thinking of cutting back the initial maplist in terms of CTF maps and starting with a smaller maplist with more variety, more AD maps and such. I don't think having a large maplist full of CTF is going to help the mod as much as plenty of AD stuff would. Obviously any new game type stuff would have to be intuitive and easy to pick up. __________________ Fortress Forever. Level Designer, Gameplay Dude and whatnot.

10-05-2005, 01:32 PM	#2
o_nezumi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Peoples Republic of Harmfull Free Radicals Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	This is a very good point, Fresh. New and exciting map types keep the gameplay fresh and... uh... new and exciting. Actually, ff_harbor is basically a mix between CTF and Hunted, if you think about it. The whole TF goal thingy allows you to go wild and make whatever you want, and I'm surprised that more people dont (didn't), considering how healthy the TFC mapping community is (was).

10-05-2005, 01:33 PM	#3
o_fisheye Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	or something like getting a keycard that lets you get past the autosentry that's gaurding the train that takes you to a store where you find a hidden soccer ball that allows you to get past the autosentry at the next stop that's gaurding the flags that allow access to the showeroom where the naked lady is? ^copyright protected, btw.

10-05-2005, 01:36 PM	#4
o_nezumi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Peoples Republic of Harmfull Free Radicals Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	No, too late fisheye. I've already got a map almost exactly like that in progress.

10-05-2005, 02:00 PM	#5
o_jinx Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ohio Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	There was at least one popular map where you had to take your flag to the enemy base to cap it. I can't remember the name and it's killing me lol. That was an interesting setup, and quite brutal. Since Ramparts is my first Source map, and my first TF map, I decided to go for a more standard layout and setup. Something not too ambitious that I know I can finish and get some experience on. But I'll go crazy on my second one bwaha!

10-05-2005, 02:17 PM	#6
o_yohan1973 Join Date: May 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I completely understand your concerns. However it's too early to tell if we will see a rise in the number of levels that offer unque gameplay. The FF entities have yet to be released. However, in the past I think it came down to the difficulty of editing enities. I mean most mappers just waite for someone else to come up with the entities and drop them into their map. Murderball for example. that was a first! I'm sure other people had thought of it but no one had came up with the entities untill that. Once murderball was out people simply took the entities from it! I think that if the FF team puts together a really detailed tutorial (yet simple in explaination) on entities...we will see some creative game plays come out too.

10-05-2005, 03:46 PM	#8
Jiggles Retired FF Staff Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: CowTown Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Creek had some pretty crazy gameplay; it was really a precursor to the more "modern" assault-style maps. I think the reason that most maps aren't like this is because: a. harder to make b. harder to learn Still, I would welcome them as long as the objectives are made obvious.

10-05-2005, 03:54 PM	#9
o_fresh Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Brum. Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	even if its a flag in some glass tube, and you have to activate a console with a kaycard for the tube to lower into the floor, its better than this constant lazers over a small flag holding.

10-05-2005, 03:55 PM	#10
o_jinx Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ohio Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	yeah, Jiggles. and it's frustrating to spend a lot of time on a unique map, and then have people not like it because.. it's unique... lol.

10-05-2005, 05:20 PM	#11
o_[wtf?]chemical burn Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	People rarely read the .txt file to even see if it's CTF/RTFC/A-D etc... let alone to read instructions on how to play a new, unique gameplay style. I tried mixing hunted with attack defend once and in a 30 minute playtest about 2 people knew wtf was going on.

10-05-2005, 09:36 PM	#13
o_thenuke0 Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	the direction signs on the map itself make it easy to learn.

10-06-2005, 01:18 AM	#14
o_aazumak Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	i dont know what game your talking about but in moh radiant you can set something to explode upon a certain amount of damaged recieved. if you wanted to you could simply leave out the explosion and leave say an open door to the flag

10-06-2005, 01:58 AM	#15
o_fisheye Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	did anyone ever play headz's smurfescape map? it's civ class co-op escape type map, but had the civ model replaced with a smurf. instead of getting a ball that let you walk on lava, headz asked me to make a pair of fireproof boots. then we came up with the idea of a big hat model that stops you getting hurt in a tunnel cave-in, wings on a belt that reduce your gravity, and the smurfette nappy that gives the wearer extra bouyancy. there's also a couple of shiny new keys, but they only spin above the players head. the rest are made to fit onto the smurf model. boots on feet, nappy on arse etc. no doubt the FF entity setup will allow for the the same type of thing, so variations in gameplay will really be down to how creative the mappers can be.

10-06-2005, 05:27 AM	#17
o_kam Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Melbourne Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Some people couldn't even figure out scrummage :/ Smurf escape was awesome but killed your fps

10-06-2005, 07:52 AM	#18
o_nezumi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Peoples Republic of Harmfull Free Radicals Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Perhaps the solution could be to include maps with widely varied gameplay types as standard maps. This might make a bunch of pub servers include them in their regular rotation, and get people interested in them. Also there's a bunch of stuff you can do to help people out, like displaying messages on their screen when they spawn. Actually, the audio announcements like 'your team has the enemy flag' might be hard to use for other gametypes where they'd actually be usefull, unless you made your own custome ones.

10-06-2005, 10:41 AM	#19
o_fresh Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Brum. Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	simple. put them in a league. then clans are forced to learn them, and in turn put them on servers. obv wireplay have been smurfing clans with gay maps for years, so it wont be hard. also, unique does not have to mean a map is complicated, even if unique is just putting a key card in SD2 to deactivate the power, or doors instead of lazers. I always had a brilliant idea of having the flag on fire, flames roaring from it, and when you touched it or went within an inch of it you died. and you had to activate a sprinkler system to kill the flames. This is a basic security/flag access just in a different way, we should see more inventive, but not nesseserily complicated ways of getting the flag.

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