The Definition Of Balanced

o_mikequist · 07-03-2006, 04:18 PM

I've been thinking about this recently, and I think I've come up with some interesting stuff after some discussion with many other players and mappers.

The Definition of Balanced

A goal that many mappers strive for when we design our maps is balance. This can mean many things, and even it's most strict description can be interpreted in many ways by many different people. But for the most part, it's assumed to be when a map has the perfect cap ratio. For example, one could say that Openfire and Monkey are balanced (although I tend to think that they tend to sway towards Offense and Defense, respectively). Not "too many" caps but not "too little".

So we try to replicate, yes? We try to build a map that has this many entrances in to a flag room. Or we build a map that has perfectly placed respawns. And in effect we almost end up rebuilding 2fort except mirrored in the other direction, or dustbowl but with a different theme. And that is where I think we, as a mapping community, go wrong.

By focusing on replication rather than originality... by concentrating on abiding by strict guidelines and formulas for our maps...we allow ourselves to stifle our talent and artwork, and in effect our community.

Is it really that awful if a team is able to cap 30 times in one round? Or if a team can only cap once? Shrouding the truth with a veil of pressure from our peers and community is a resounding yes. But honestly, logically, and in our hearts which whisper to us "Build that CTF map which consists of two obscenely large towers connected by narrow bridges," we know that No, it is not awful if the score ratio changes.

It's important for everybody to realize this. Not just the mappers, but the community. Leagues need to be willing to try maps that present more gameplay. Too long have our league clans been satisfied with this "Cap Compromise" which consists of playing maps where the teams will cap and kill about the same each game. Defenses need to be willing to kill less sometimes, and likewise offenses need to be willing to sacrifice a cap fest.

So what does this mean for mappers?

Don't let your creativity be ruined by some pretense. The best maps are the original ones. Wells yard was original at one time, as was the entire concept of Attack/Defend. Congestus presented something new and the masses loved it.So expand your mind and sketchpad. If you can dream it, you can play it, and that's all anybody is here to do.

o_ghost · 07-03-2006, 04:30 PM

People are going to enjoy maps that are fun to play. Sure, you could make it so 1 cap is the norm but people who play offense won't want to play the map. On the flip side if you make it so 30 caps is the norm people on D may not want to play it. People want to feel effective. You just can't feel effective if there's no hope at all of holding a flag or capping a flag.

That's not to say you can't be original and make a "balanced" map. Not every map is an openfire/monkey clone in TFC. In the end the player base will decide if the map is playable or not.

o_mikequist · 07-03-2006, 04:35 PM

See. That's the attitude I'm talking about.

A player automatically feels inneffective. We set up these maps so we can basically feel like were important.

I can do that easily. I can build a really small hallway and that soldier, no matter his skill level, is going to feel pretty damn useful taking out the offense one by one.

It's just that we have allowed ourselves to get use to ONE setting. And we are simply afraid or ashamed if that ratio is changed.

o_own3r · 07-03-2006, 06:35 PM

i have to admit i hate maps which stalemate, with the defence able to lock their base down. In my opinion no base should be very easy to defend as lets face it most of the team is on defence anyway so they dont need it made easy. Offence by contrast is a lesser proportion usually and mostly light classes so routes need to cross/link and be quite direct so they stand a chance of out-whiting and out-running the enemy.

o_mikequist · 07-03-2006, 08:38 PM

Why? It's all in our heads.

o_sokrateas · 07-03-2006, 10:00 PM

I'm all for originality. However, the truth is and always will be with CTF type games is that they need to hold this formula. New maps truthfully only really change aesthetically with some minor differences. Leagues love these maps because all of these players have mastered one style of game play. Throw a league player on Moon Cheese (which someone should re-make) and they cant do shit, which is why leagues will never adapt to these custom maps.

On another note though, there are die hard pub server players like myself who get extremely excited when you need to download a new map, and that map ends up having some crazy concept. It's hilarious when a pub full of 32 players come on and half of them don't read the map info for this brand new map they've never played before. Well anyway, I'm not really going anywhere with this except to say that you should be watching out for my map ff_advantage which is about 45% complete right now, which will introduce a new style of gameplay. The hardest thing about this map is that I'm trying to keep the map somewhat balanced, but have this slight weighting for the team that has the advantage at the time. Anyhow, if you're really interested, about 5 months ago I posted my concept, it has changed a bit since then, but check it out. http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...ead.php?t=4148

o_imbrifer · 07-03-2006, 10:35 PM

Quote:

We set up these maps so we can basically feel like were important.

Some would argue thats the reason we play games at all.

But aside from that, I agree with all opinions presented here. Originality is a must. The Fortress series has shown us this, through many map types becoming popular, as the mod was flexible enough to allow this. The nice thing about starting mapping before the mod is out is that you get to contribute to the starting flavor of the mod - if a bunch of mappers here are original, then people will be more open-minded to new map types which can widen the FPS experience in general.

On the other hand, if a flag room has 8 entrances or there is a single tower with a easily-defendable passageway, people won't want to play the map. Capping will become too easy and everyone will go O on the former case, or defense will be to easy so no one will go on the O. This is seen in many mods and maps right now. I play Dystopia from time to time, and I see when some maps come up, just about everyone in the server moans and a new map is voted on. That is for some of these reasons.

In conclusion, I'm currently trying to work on serious originality in my maps. I think that having this in FF from the get-go is vital to the future of the mod through providing flexibility.

o_gorified · 07-03-2006, 10:40 PM

I completely agree that players/leagues are too driven by standard/generic maps. I've always tried to take things and tweak it a bit beyond the norm. I always figured that was my main downfall in mapping. Some of the TFC maps I've made in the past where I tried to go beyond the standard 2fort/Well style (Goregasm, Dark Skies), players were blown away and thought it was pretty kick ass but I never once saw a server running them. Hell, even Defrag was amazed in ways by Dark_Skies, and it's not easy to impress a master!

I guess regardless of players opinions it is ultimately up to the server admin. If no server admins are willing to break out of their tunnel vision then, uniqueness and originality will be lost completely. All we'll have in the future is 2fort_2007 and Well_part32.

When I originally posted dark_skies on a file site, one of the users asked if it was a series of maps because the zip was about 3.5MB. He said if it was only one map, he wasn't going to download it because of the file size. WTF?

Circuitous · 07-03-2006, 10:42 PM

Man, with the LUA scripting available for maps we damn well better see some new concepts or I'll be very disappointed.

o_mikequist · 07-03-2006, 10:58 PM

I might get carried away with my points. But you get my drift. I am a mapper. I understand that we cant just build a tower of death.

What people do need to work on is creating gametypes and concepts and maps so interesting, unreal, original, or just plain fun, that people don't even notice they're dying. They just want to keep playing.

I know the whole league thing. I have a map in STA in 2 weeks. And never did I feel more limited in my mapping then when I altered my first real map (x7stormz...which was pretty shitty, but conceptually interesting) to be more "leagueish" as Stormz2. I'm not referring to the visual updates, but the ones caused by the attitudes of the players who demanded a hallway here so they could rake up a few more kills...or me having to make the water a one-way thing.

The reason I say all this is becuase I'm making a new ctf map. I'm talking a HUGE ctf map...9000 brushes, 50000 faces. For comparison, a 2fort sized map like Stormz2 had 800 brushes and 8000 faces. But this map is staged in castles. Huge fields before the castle walls, an actual yard inside the walls, and then the inside of the castle.

It's not the actual gameplay that I am focusing primarily on...but on the concept of defending a freaking castle...that and prove I can make a defensively oriented, large map. As opposed to my countless unreleased fast-paced ones.

I'll update you on that by the way. The map is splendid.

o_voipme · 07-04-2006, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imbrifer

Some would argue thats the reason we play games at all.

I second that completely. While I agree that diverse and original maps are very much needed in the community, its not something the community readily adapts to. Too many times have I seen a full server empty out simply because of a map change, or because they're being forced to play a map they didn't originally join the server for. People that join the "2fort or vote" servers are not crossing their fingers (for the most part) that the "or vote" comes up more often than the "2fort". And the reason is because 2fort is something familiar. Some place that they can sit up in the sniper tower and fire their napalm cannons across the map at the other snipers.

The problem with creating a game/mod based on a preconceived idea such as TF is that people are expecting to come in to it already knowing that they'll be equal to or better than what they were in previous iterations of the TF genre. Its not so much of a mapper's dilemna as it concerns us all.

o_nezumi · 07-04-2006, 01:35 AM

Well, you may all know I'm doing my part to get new map types out there, but I also plan on running a FF server right from the get-go that plays custom maps (mine and others) besides the standard CTF stuff.

If servers that are up right from the start play maps and get people -- especially the new players FF is trying to attract -- used to the idea of unconventional map types then maybe they'll become more popular.

And then I could join a FF clan and raise a ruckus untill it starts playing new map types...

o_imbrifer · 07-04-2006, 02:33 AM

Quote:

I also plan on running a FF server right from the get-go that plays custom maps (mine and others) besides the standard CTF stuff.

Bless you, son.

New map types.. I'd like an escape map with small player team(s) and bots. I thought about making a tower filled with bots, and bot snipers in the trees in the forest surrounding the tower. There would be 2 small player teams which would have to capture different levels of the tower - itd be easier for one team to start in the bottom, and the other team to start at the top, so they work into eachother, killing bots on the way.

/shrug

Look around in life for inspiration. Relays? Skiing map? Frag tag? etc

o_donny · 07-04-2006, 10:47 PM

I think 2 identical bases are balanced, rest is up to which team you will be playing on.
Not up to mapper if capping is possible, but making impossible map is just dumb pull.

In case I missed your point you can replace all I said above with word "BOOBS!"

o_deadly furby · 07-05-2006, 04:51 AM

Personally, I like your way of looking at the overall concept and appreciate your thoughts. You bring up some great points. Now, can you develop maps that bring it to life? Perhaps laying the varying styles out in sequence, similar to dustbowl's concept, would be the answer. Might have a chance to really become popular because of its uniqueness.

o_dark applepolisher · 07-05-2006, 06:10 AM

Maps by no means have to be good to be popular. Think 2fort.

2fort is very unbalanced towards D, but check all the servers. 2fort is by far the most played TFC map.

What could possibly be the reason everybody loves this map? It's very unimaginative. It's unbalanced as hell. Maybe what the mainstream crowd wants is 2fort clones and the such anyway?

Defrag · 07-05-2006, 09:10 AM

2fort is fairly balanced in terms of scoring and has been throughout its life. The map is fast, direct and easy to learn. That's why it's so popular.

Look at the most popular map of any game ever: de_dust. It shows many of the same traits plus a quality theme (which in its day was really cool).

o_alligator · 07-05-2006, 09:13 AM

Well said ^. Dark Applepolisher, I do not believe that 2fort is unbalance in any way. Defrag pretty much posted my thoughts.

o_player · 07-05-2006, 09:32 AM

It is, however, very defence friendly. Maybe that is what he was trying to state. Personally, I prefer maps that are like 2Fort - More defence friendly that is, it gives me a challenge when going for the flag. Instead of whoring ramps you have to think if dming is the better option rather than trying to get passed the defender.

MikeQuist, although some of your points may be over the top, I agree that we do need more unique maps. Take Imbrifer's 'Sky' map for example, we need more maps like that. It uses gameplay methods from maps such as Flagrun and puts them in an entirely new context, and to be honest with you, it sounds very fun and I believe it would play well as a public and league map whilst introducing something new to the game.

o_2d-chris · 07-05-2006, 01:43 PM

Great read this, i agree on all the points made. Though as a level designer you must design a level with set structure to fit the gameplay mechanics you are not limmited to make a 'clone' of a proven design.

The key to a good design is understanding what players want to do, what grabbed me into MP gaming was the thought of catching and defeating other players by the use of traps, back in the original Unreal Tournament this was awesome.

My advise to any designer planning a map is to study the maps from TFC and other ctf / assault and defend games and make notes on why the map works, is it the choke points? the verticle gameplay? visual theme and atmospher?

Soon you will have enough ideas to plan a decent level with some original twists, but the key is to follow a structure.

07-03-2006, 04:18 PM	#1
o_mikequist Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Tampa Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	The Definition Of Balanced I've been thinking about this recently, and I think I've come up with some interesting stuff after some discussion with many other players and mappers. The Definition of Balanced A goal that many mappers strive for when we design our maps is balance. This can mean many things, and even it's most strict description can be interpreted in many ways by many different people. But for the most part, it's assumed to be when a map has the perfect cap ratio. For example, one could say that Openfire and Monkey are balanced (although I tend to think that they tend to sway towards Offense and Defense, respectively). Not "too many" caps but not "too little". So we try to replicate, yes? We try to build a map that has this many entrances in to a flag room. Or we build a map that has perfectly placed respawns. And in effect we almost end up rebuilding 2fort except mirrored in the other direction, or dustbowl but with a different theme. And that is where I think we, as a mapping community, go wrong. By focusing on replication rather than originality... by concentrating on abiding by strict guidelines and formulas for our maps...we allow ourselves to stifle our talent and artwork, and in effect our community. Is it really that awful if a team is able to cap 30 times in one round? Or if a team can only cap once? Shrouding the truth with a veil of pressure from our peers and community is a resounding yes. But honestly, logically, and in our hearts which whisper to us "Build that CTF map which consists of two obscenely large towers connected by narrow bridges," we know that No, it is not awful if the score ratio changes. It's important for everybody to realize this. Not just the mappers, but the community. Leagues need to be willing to try maps that present more gameplay. Too long have our league clans been satisfied with this "Cap Compromise" which consists of playing maps where the teams will cap and kill about the same each game. Defenses need to be willing to kill less sometimes, and likewise offenses need to be willing to sacrifice a cap fest. So what does this mean for mappers? Don't let your creativity be ruined by some pretense. The best maps are the original ones. Wells yard was original at one time, as was the entire concept of Attack/Defend. Congestus presented something new and the masses loved it.So expand your mind and sketchpad. If you can dream it, you can play it, and that's all anybody is here to do.

07-03-2006, 10:42 PM	#9
Circuitous Useless Retired FF Staff Join Date: Jun 2005 Class/Position: D Soldier, O Scout Gametype: AvD Posts Rated Helpful 9 Times	Man, with the LUA scripting available for maps we damn well better see some new concepts or I'll be very disappointed. __________________ Look at all those dead links.

07-05-2006, 09:10 AM	#17
Defrag Retired FF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Scotland Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	2fort is fairly balanced in terms of scoring and has been throughout its life. The map is fast, direct and easy to learn. That's why it's so popular. Look at the most popular map of any game ever: de_dust. It shows many of the same traits plus a quality theme (which in its day was really cool). __________________ Fortress Forever. Level Designer, Gameplay Dude and whatnot.

07-03-2006, 04:30 PM	#2
o_ghost Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	People are going to enjoy maps that are fun to play. Sure, you could make it so 1 cap is the norm but people who play offense won't want to play the map. On the flip side if you make it so 30 caps is the norm people on D may not want to play it. People want to feel effective. You just can't feel effective if there's no hope at all of holding a flag or capping a flag. That's not to say you can't be original and make a "balanced" map. Not every map is an openfire/monkey clone in TFC. In the end the player base will decide if the map is playable or not.

07-03-2006, 04:35 PM	#3
o_mikequist Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Tampa Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	See. That's the attitude I'm talking about. A player automatically feels inneffective. We set up these maps so we can basically feel like were important. I can do that easily. I can build a really small hallway and that soldier, no matter his skill level, is going to feel pretty damn useful taking out the offense one by one. It's just that we have allowed ourselves to get use to ONE setting. And we are simply afraid or ashamed if that ratio is changed.

07-03-2006, 06:35 PM	#4
o_own3r Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	i have to admit i hate maps which stalemate, with the defence able to lock their base down. In my opinion no base should be very easy to defend as lets face it most of the team is on defence anyway so they dont need it made easy. Offence by contrast is a lesser proportion usually and mostly light classes so routes need to cross/link and be quite direct so they stand a chance of out-whiting and out-running the enemy.

07-03-2006, 08:38 PM	#5
o_mikequist Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Tampa Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Why? It's all in our heads.

07-03-2006, 10:00 PM	#6
o_sokrateas Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Calgary, Alberta Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I'm all for originality. However, the truth is and always will be with CTF type games is that they need to hold this formula. New maps truthfully only really change aesthetically with some minor differences. Leagues love these maps because all of these players have mastered one style of game play. Throw a league player on Moon Cheese (which someone should re-make) and they cant do shit, which is why leagues will never adapt to these custom maps. On another note though, there are die hard pub server players like myself who get extremely excited when you need to download a new map, and that map ends up having some crazy concept. It's hilarious when a pub full of 32 players come on and half of them don't read the map info for this brand new map they've never played before. Well anyway, I'm not really going anywhere with this except to say that you should be watching out for my map ff_advantage which is about 45% complete right now, which will introduce a new style of gameplay. The hardest thing about this map is that I'm trying to keep the map somewhat balanced, but have this slight weighting for the team that has the advantage at the time. Anyhow, if you're really interested, about 5 months ago I posted my concept, it has changed a bit since then, but check it out. http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...ead.php?t=4148

07-03-2006, 10:40 PM	#8
o_gorified Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I completely agree that players/leagues are too driven by standard/generic maps. I've always tried to take things and tweak it a bit beyond the norm. I always figured that was my main downfall in mapping. Some of the TFC maps I've made in the past where I tried to go beyond the standard 2fort/Well style (Goregasm, Dark Skies), players were blown away and thought it was pretty kick ass but I never once saw a server running them. Hell, even Defrag was amazed in ways by Dark_Skies, and it's not easy to impress a master! I guess regardless of players opinions it is ultimately up to the server admin. If no server admins are willing to break out of their tunnel vision then, uniqueness and originality will be lost completely. All we'll have in the future is 2fort_2007 and Well_part32. When I originally posted dark_skies on a file site, one of the users asked if it was a series of maps because the zip was about 3.5MB. He said if it was only one map, he wasn't going to download it because of the file size. WTF?

07-03-2006, 10:58 PM	#10
o_mikequist Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Tampa Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I might get carried away with my points. But you get my drift. I am a mapper. I understand that we cant just build a tower of death. What people do need to work on is creating gametypes and concepts and maps so interesting, unreal, original, or just plain fun, that people don't even notice they're dying. They just want to keep playing. I know the whole league thing. I have a map in STA in 2 weeks. And never did I feel more limited in my mapping then when I altered my first real map (x7stormz...which was pretty shitty, but conceptually interesting) to be more "leagueish" as Stormz2. I'm not referring to the visual updates, but the ones caused by the attitudes of the players who demanded a hallway here so they could rake up a few more kills...or me having to make the water a one-way thing. The reason I say all this is becuase I'm making a new ctf map. I'm talking a HUGE ctf map...9000 brushes, 50000 faces. For comparison, a 2fort sized map like Stormz2 had 800 brushes and 8000 faces. But this map is staged in castles. Huge fields before the castle walls, an actual yard inside the walls, and then the inside of the castle. It's not the actual gameplay that I am focusing primarily on...but on the concept of defending a freaking castle...that and prove I can make a defensively oriented, large map. As opposed to my countless unreleased fast-paced ones. I'll update you on that by the way. The map is splendid.

07-04-2006, 01:35 AM	#12
o_nezumi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Peoples Republic of Harmfull Free Radicals Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Well, you may all know I'm doing my part to get new map types out there, but I also plan on running a FF server right from the get-go that plays custom maps (mine and others) besides the standard CTF stuff. If servers that are up right from the start play maps and get people -- especially the new players FF is trying to attract -- used to the idea of unconventional map types then maybe they'll become more popular. And then I could join a FF clan and raise a ruckus untill it starts playing new map types...

07-04-2006, 10:47 PM	#14
o_donny Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Finland Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I think 2 identical bases are balanced, rest is up to which team you will be playing on. Not up to mapper if capping is possible, but making impossible map is just dumb pull. In case I missed your point you can replace all I said above with word "BOOBS!"

07-05-2006, 04:51 AM	#15
o_deadly furby Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Cell Block 17 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Personally, I like your way of looking at the overall concept and appreciate your thoughts. You bring up some great points. Now, can you develop maps that bring it to life? Perhaps laying the varying styles out in sequence, similar to dustbowl's concept, would be the answer. Might have a chance to really become popular because of its uniqueness.

07-05-2006, 06:10 AM	#16
o_dark applepolisher Join Date: May 2006 Location: Idaho Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Maps by no means have to be good to be popular. Think 2fort. 2fort is very unbalanced towards D, but check all the servers. 2fort is by far the most played TFC map. What could possibly be the reason everybody loves this map? It's very unimaginative. It's unbalanced as hell. Maybe what the mainstream crowd wants is 2fort clones and the such anyway?

07-05-2006, 09:13 AM	#18
o_alligator Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: California Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Well said ^. Dark Applepolisher, I do not believe that 2fort is unbalance in any way. Defrag pretty much posted my thoughts.

07-05-2006, 09:32 AM	#19
o_player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Europe Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	It is, however, very defence friendly. Maybe that is what he was trying to state. Personally, I prefer maps that are like 2Fort - More defence friendly that is, it gives me a challenge when going for the flag. Instead of whoring ramps you have to think if dming is the better option rather than trying to get passed the defender. MikeQuist, although some of your points may be over the top, I agree that we do need more unique maps. Take Imbrifer's 'Sky' map for example, we need more maps like that. It uses gameplay methods from maps such as Flagrun and puts them in an entirely new context, and to be honest with you, it sounds very fun and I believe it would play well as a public and league map whilst introducing something new to the game.

07-05-2006, 01:43 PM	#20
o_2d-chris Join Date: May 2005 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Great read this, i agree on all the points made. Though as a level designer you must design a level with set structure to fit the gameplay mechanics you are not limmited to make a 'clone' of a proven design. The key to a good design is understanding what players want to do, what grabbed me into MP gaming was the thought of catching and defeating other players by the use of traps, back in the original Unreal Tournament this was awesome. My advise to any designer planning a map is to study the maps from TFC and other ctf / assault and defend games and make notes on why the map works, is it the choke points? the verticle gameplay? visual theme and atmospher? Soon you will have enough ideas to plan a decent level with some original twists, but the key is to follow a structure.

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