Next patch is in beta!

[Vicious]

Originally Posted by Hammock

I don't know about all you, but when I play as engy, there are some maps where I feel I'm rebuilding and rebuilding my damn sg every 30 seconds. It feels useless and futile.

But the constant focus on rebuilding and repositioning and the fast pace in which it's occuring some games, makes me neglect my score.

So by the end of the round, I felt pretty useless, the sg was always going down and shit, but when the final scores pop up I'd generally be in the top 3 for kills.

Think about it... really. Unless you have some uber dude as solly, howmany kills does a solly really make before he dies? 3-5? It's not like I see an abundance of amazing K : D ratio's by the end of maps. Most people don't even generate over 30 kills on D in a 30 minute period (I say most, but I know there's people who can succeed that and more). As soldier on a 30 minute map on defense I'll average 30-50 kills depending what map.

There's almost always 1 engy who's in the top 3 of his team by the end of the game. Even if your sg is going down every 30 seconds, as long as it's making on average 2-3 kills per deaths you're doing good, hell even 1 kill per death and it's still doing it's job.

SG's perform a function that no other class can do, and that's act as a distraction. An sg doesn't have to be in a high profile spot making ton's of kills, all it has to be is "up".

Take aardvark for example, sg's have a hard time staying up there cause it's a fast map.

But say it's 4v4. Defense consists of 2 sollies, 1 demo and a HW. The offense isn't going to think twice about dancing around juking, pysching out their opponents. They're free to run around because their death is all reliant on your enemy's aim.

Switch one of your sollies to an engy and place the sg in the flag room. All of a sudden offense isn't free to spend as much time as they need. They have to react quicker, make faster decisions (do I conc to the flag? Or do I take down the sg?).

This is why sg's go down so fast, is because offense isn't free to do what they want with one of them around. They become a target.

So all of a sudden with 1 sg addition you've gone from 4 scouts, the fastest O you could have, to a mixed group of classes, maybe a medic, maybe a spy or demo. That there already has slowed the offense down, and the sg doesn't even have to make a kill.

But it's slowed down even more, because if the scout doesn't time his run, and comes before his teammates take down the sg, he'll probably die, so now he has to wait for the sg to be taken down. What if O fails 1 or 2 runs at taking it down? Again slowed down the O. Plus your other teammates are more protected, no medic is going to run out in the open and mulch a solly when there's an sg protecting the solly. No the medic has to goad the solly to come to him by pot shotting him or what not. Or that medic is focusing completely on the sg, which leaves your solly free completely to shoot at targets that aren't even aiming for him.

SG's perform soo much more than just killing and stopping enemy's dead in their tracts. They slow offensive lineups down instantly, and give protection to your own teammates, which lets them live longer and survive successive attacks.

This is why they go down fast, even though they're not making kills, they're preventing offense at going mock chicken on your D, so they become the primary targets.

If you want to make real stats to test the effectiveness of sg's.

Record on the same map the amount of flag caps for the first 15 minutes without an engy on the line up, then record the amount of flag caps for the last 15 minutes with an engy on the roster.

I understand this and it IS the reason I'm concerned about the reduction in health. Before the tracking issue was addressed, it seemed like all they did was make it easier to kill. It was mentioned that a nail-nade and shotgun blast will do the job from a solly with ease and the soldier ALREADY kills an engy with 1 rocket and 1 nade. All good sollys can do that in 1 shot of a rocket. Take out the engy and his sg in one foul swoop?

Also the medic is a SG menace. I'm not complaining, just stating. His supernailgun is already capable of taking out an unguarded SG within seconds. With the lack of tracking almost any class can circle strafe one and take it out without fail or much (if any) damage.

I'm ok with the health reduction if the tracking has been fixed. But without a better reaction time from the SG, the lower health makes it LESS of a distraction than it was already.

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by Vicious

I understand this and it IS the reason I'm concerned about the reduction in health. Before the tracking issue was addressed, it seemed like all they did was make it easier to kill. It was mentioned that a nail-nade and shotgun blast will do the job from a solly with ease and the soldier ALREADY kills an engy with 1 rocket and 1 nade. All good sollys can do that in 1 shot of a rocket. Take out the engy and his sg in one foul swoop?

Also the medic is a SG menace. I'm not complaining, just stating. His supernailgun is already capable of taking out an unguarded SG within seconds. With the lack of tracking almost any class can circle strafe one and take it out without fail or much (if any) damage.

I'm ok with the health reduction if the tracking has been fixed. But without a better reaction time from the SG, the lower health makes it LESS of a distraction than it was already.

Yes but think about what's happening in the scenario you described. 1 solly using his nail grenade, 1 rocket, 1 nade and probably a bit more just to take down that engy/sg. One whole offensive unit sacrificed for a single task. Medics might as well call them suicide runs for what they're worth because going after an sg usually means his death by the sg or by a defender trying to protect it.

1 whole offensive unit sacrificed for a single sg, and that's not even including the engy he has to take down to force him to respawn. If he doesn't take the engy down the sg is up instantly.

Sounds to me no matter how weak an sg is, it's still doing it's job by creating a distraction. ONLY when an offensive player can continually take down an sg and still be an effective flag runner could you really consider the sg underpowered, but I don't see that happening all too often.

His supernailgun is already capable of taking out an unguarded SG within seconds

ANY class should be able to take down an unguarded sg within seconds. That's what makes the difference between a good engy or bad engy... defending his sg.

[Vicious]

See, you and I are talking about two different styles of gameplay. As far the clan-style goes, it doesn't really matter cuz you're all playing your positions and honestly if my solly is letting you have the time to take a few shots at the SG, he's failing.

I'm talking about the general pub where new players are starting to play. Like I've stated, this isn't a complaint for my benefit. It's a complaint from the people who haven't played yet.

No offense, but among the elite players in the game I only know a couple who are n00b friendly. Most of them shun them and it goes downhill from there.

[Circuitous]

Yeah, the "they lose an O slot" argument doesn't matter when:

- one team has 3 SGs
- the other has seven people trying to run O.

It all goes to shit once you leave the happy 5v5 place.

[Vicious]

Originally Posted by Circuitous

Yeah, the "they lose an O slot" argument doesn't matter when:

- one team has 3 SGs
- the other has seven people trying to run O.

It all goes to shit once you leave the happy 5v5 place.

Exactly and some people are looking for that. The problem is that we hold a serious lack of dedicated high level players and unless you can introduce new players into an environment where they can learn and WANT to become one of those higher level players, you'll just end up with free-for-all pubs and few highly skilled teams.

[Circuitous]

Fuck, I love free-for-all pubs.

[chilledsanity]

Yes but think about what's happening in the scenario you described. 1 solly using his nail grenade, 1 rocket, 1 nade and probably a bit more just to take down that engy/sg. One whole offensive unit sacrificed for a single task.

Yeah, so when engineer's realize their sg's are simply an annoyance or distraction, it makes them want to go to hwguy where at least they can kill and survive better than their sg can.

Sounds to me no matter how weak an sg is, it's still doing it's job by creating a distraction.

Is this really the attitude people take towards sg's? I mean I used to look at sg's as your main line of defense. They are completely stationary, so they need extra help to compensate. Sg's shouldn't be a distraction, they should be a menace. You should have to figure out how you're going to take it out so your team move forward, not a distraction that you have to devote a couple seconds between conc jumping to getting rid of.

ANY class should be able to take down an unguarded sg within seconds.

Yes, that's currently the case, but WHY? Why the hell should a medic or a scout be able to take out an sg from medium range? It should be tearing people to shreds. An engineer should only have to worry about spies, long range attacks, or serious assaults when he leaves it unguarded. If anybody of any class can take out an sg in seconds without a scratch, that means that sg's are weaker than any other unit in the game. Considering how the engineer is the second weakest class anyway, what's going to be the point of even being an engineer?

[Iggy]

Too many maps don't give enough room for an O player to take out an SG from a distance. SGs shouldn't be invincible either, and in some situations, they are exactly that.

[Nuk3m]

Originally Posted by Circuitous

Fuck, I love free-for-all pubs.

Hence, :e0:'s server.

[Hammock]

My god why don't you just give sg's god mode or something then. First line of defense?! lol

Name a single map in TFC where an UNDEFENDED sg couldn't be taken down. When I mean undefended I mean no engy nearby and no other defense to shoot at you while taking it down.

If sg's were strong enough to be the first line of defense, then there wouldn't be a need for any other defensive classes.

Yeah, so when engineer's realize their sg's are simply an annoyance or distraction, it makes them want to go to hwguy where at least they can kill and survive better than their sg can.

Good! noobs pick the damn class first all the time because it's so easy to build an sg and have it play for you. Get them picking other classes like the HW, like the solly like the demo, that take far more skill to play than just building an sg over and over again. (not saying engy don't take skill to play, but it is by far the noob friendliest class to play).

Until I start seeing a healthier mix of defensive classes, my stance on sg's as an annoyance won't change. Having 4-5 sg's up per pub match is proof enough that people are siding with the "easier" class to play, and ignoring the harder classes.

So let them whine that their 4 sg's aren't producing the effects they want. You know why they aren't producing the effects they want? Because there's no heavier classes protecting them all!

Sg's should never be able to work alone, it would make engies the most godliest class. It needs to be coupled with either A. The engy that built it, or B. another teammate intent on defending it.

Seriously when you have an 11v11 man pub, and lets be generous say each team has 4 offensive players. That leaves 7 defense per team, now on pubs you're guaranteed to have probably 2 snipers minimum. That's 5 potential defenders protecting your base, now if 3 of those are engies, that leaves a grande total of 2 heavy classes trying to protect the flag and 3 sg's.

No wonder the sg's go down so fast! I could guarantee you 1 sg would stay up significantly longer if it was just guarding a high profile place, and you had 4 heavy classes protecting the jump points and other areas of the base.

Again I could use aardvark as an example.

1 engy in the fr with the sg, 1 demo on the flag, 1 solly laser side, 1 HW ramp, and I could even say 1 pryo button side.

If the enemies by pass the HW, he's got a pyro and solly on either side of him to offer pressure on the O. The O can't sit idley by trying to take out an sg in the FR if they got a pyro or a solly shooting at them, they're either going to have to suicide to the sg, or they're gonna have to go up against the mulcher.

Now lets look at it with our 4 sg strat (remember 2 snipers and 4 O use up 6 slots giving us 5 slots to play with on D.

4 sg's... 2 in FR, 1 button, 1 laszer.

What's the heavy class gonna be? You have a choice of a solly/demo/hw/pyro, but where should he be? top of the ramp to protect the two sg's up there? Or in the FR for when a single O demoman mirvs both sg's at the top and the 3 remaining O, by pass the only real mulcher. Could say they're medics even, since there's only 2 sg's in the FR with 2 engies, 3 medics could destroy that entire defensive line up.

All you're asking for is for the 4 sg strategy to work more efficiently, when obviously there's seriously better strategies out there, except the sg is soo noob friendly this is what they pick, then they complain their sg's go down soo fast.

[greenday5494]

engy newby, and solly/HW not? haha thats funny

[GambiT]

Originally Posted by Iggy

Too many maps don't give enough room for an O player to take out an SG from a distance. SGs shouldn't be invincible either, and in some situations, they are exactly that.

build an sg ANYWHERE and i'll destroy that sum'bitch...

[Rutabeggar]

Unless of course I am waiting on you cloaked.

[Vicious]

Originally Posted by Hammock

stuff too gigantic to warrant full-quoting

I'm not asking for invincible SGs, just a trade off. If you're making them weaker, fix the tracking issues. Which is why I've stated multiple times, I'm ok with the health reduction since the tracking issue has been addressed (I've been told it has at least).

[Darkness]

Originally Posted by Fortress Forever

Demoman: Blue pipe fuse timer dramatically decreased (from 2.5 to 1.1 seconds). Pipetrap + blue pipe explosion radius increased (pipetrap moreso than blues).

Ok let me tell you whats wrong here. Decreasing the Fuse timer is fine but do it within reason. I got to try this feature out and let me tell you its not fun at all. You can shoot a blue pipe from the top of congestus flagroom to the floor and it will explode before hitting the floor. Standing in the middle of yard on shutdown 2 you cant even get a blue pipe to the front door before it will explode. So i say like 1.7 ish would be better for overall game play. Also the blast radius is increased making demo man with a 1.1 fuse take no skill. All the demoman has to do is shoot at his feet when a medic is dming him and kill him without trying.

[greenday5494]

kinda agree

[GhostBuster]

U can throw it down sd2 or in congestus, it will be much precise now due it will blow pretty much exactly where u throw it, and as far as the "dming" part well, people always will complain, or its "too easy" or its "too hard" or something.

[SiSCoS]

If you lower the time down, demoman will be a class playable by the noobest person at a elite skill. With a lower time, like darkness said i can kill you by piping downward and it blows in ur face instead of you running past the blue pipe or it going past you. Blue pipes were ment to be shot a good range but for close range is where the skill plays in. Making DIRECT hits is what the skill is, not having them shoot in a general area of a enemy and killing them like that.

[Scuzzy]

Originally Posted by SiSCoS

If you lower the time down, demoman will be a class playable by the noobest person at a elite skill. With a lower time, like darkness said i can kill you by piping downward and it blows in ur face instead of you running past the blue pipe or it going past you. Blue pipes were ment to be shot a good range but for close range is where the skill plays in. Making DIRECT hits is what the skill is, not having them shoot in a general area of a enemy and killing them like that.

Sounds like it'll force the other classes to suck it up and get better then. I think the 2.0 beta demoman plays very well, I would hold off on your judgements prior to playing it.

[SiSCoS]

well, from my experience of playing this game since qtf my judgements are my opinions if or if not having played the beta. My main class is demoman for my clan Fortress Extreme and in passed clans such as "ESAD" so I know what im talking about!