Replies to: The Fortress Forever League The Community Wants Thread

[Dr.Satan]

Please post replies to This Thread here. I want to keep that thread pretty and I'm sure people will want to reply!

[thiz]

I've only played in some european leagues, and when I first started playing there wasn't any of these "rules" you keep saying ruined peoples enjoyment. They only came about later because certain clans were pushing out the boat with ridiculous defences, gaining a cap and sending 7 on defence? A lot less fun to play against.

The Offence vs. Offence debate (backtracking, potshotting, midmapping, whatever silly names you can come up with for it) has been going on for a long time now, I can't see why some people think it ruins the fun of the game. It certainly makes the game more enjoyable for attacking players, actually reaching the enemy base with full health so you can try and do something. For defensive players you have a greater challenge, but at least you have something to do. It's the players who see themselves as neither of these two things that have the problem with it, deathmatch types, snipers, people who can't understand why you wouldn't shoot an enemy that you can see, even though you know they won't shoot you back out of respect.

The clans you say that don't want to be ruined by league play are probably right to worry though, some players are competitive and will want to win, getting angry with the fellow clanmates or leaving the clan for better pastures. It's a progression though, you will end up with a core of players who you really get to know, and get better at the game with, becoming proper friends with.

Personally I'd prefer a league that had no rules on matchplay, but depended on the clans playing to be respectful to each other and play a fair game. This definately can't apply to everyone, some people are far to competetive and will do anything to win a league or match. The "unwritten" rules should be exactly that, clans don't have to adhere to them, but don't expect them to be well liked in the community if you don't, and good luck getting a friendly game going when no one wants to play against you.

[Dr.Satan]

Yep that's the general idea, everybody knows there are unwritten rules, but why enforce them unless the community really wants it. And honestly why follow them until there is a need...

Hell in TFC there is a 1 Fatty rule. Is that nessiciary in FF? Who knows, fatty isn't the powerhouse he used to be so it might not be nessiciary

Spy on the other hand sucked in TFC but in FF he is a beast...should we cap the Spy at 1 or 2? Who knows until the issue comes up?

My point though is that although there are some genuine concerns, that shouldn't stop you from playing with the people you like in a structured gameplay. I see a lot of scrims out there that are instilling harder rules then the league would, but they still play and everyone has fun no matter if they win or loose, but those same people don't want to do a league b/c of one reason or another.

So my request is that you tell me what those reasons are and let me address them, let me form the league around the community around your concerns and mold it into the type of league you DO want to play in as opposed to a league that you don't. I have controll over everything and can mold this however the community wants it, so let me know what you want and I will commit that to the league. Don't let it stop you, let it impower you to change things once and for all!

[Vicious]

Non-ladder, full-length long seasons with a playoff at the end. Then a short offseason and get back into it again.

[Credge]

MIRV rules need to be in place on a map-by-map basis. 1 MIRV class per team in Well is a good place to start.

The number of engineers allowed should be done on a map-by-map basis. 1 engineer class per team in Well is a good place to start.

OVO needs to be a rule, otherwise the game turns into mid-map DM boredom. Might as well pub.

Swinging engineers should be allowed, that is, if the map calls for it.

Yard D should not be allowed, that is, unless the flag is in the yard. D is not allowed to fire on people in the yard unless the flag is there or can be seen from there. This means that if a door is closed and the flag is on the other side of it, you can't fire on people in the yard unless the door is open OR the flag is in the yard.

Some maps should allow more than 1 MIRV and engineer. Examples of this would be Aardvark for the MIRV and possibly dropdown for the engineer.

I will be more than happy to set the class-restrictions on a map-per-map basis to allow for fair play on both offense and defense. To explain why class restrictions should be enforced is so it is balanced for both the O and D.

A demoman on offense should prohibit a demoman on defense simply for balance reasons, especially on maps like well, crossover, or SD2. Other maps, such as dropdown, would have a 2 mirv limit.

Without structure there is no point to leagues.

[Dr.Satan]

I disagree, how am I supposed to decide what structure is going to work and what doesn't until things are tested and become apparent.

There is no since in imposing rules that could maybe possibly might be good for the league. It will be a wasted effort and might prove to the counter productive in the long run.

This is a new game and it needs a fresh new start. Just b/c something worked for TFC does not necessarily mean that it will work for FF and the only way to know is to either impose rules that may / may not make since and hope I'm right. Or to just leave it wide open and wait until the community decides as a whole that something should be implemented. I think that the easier way is to let things present themselves b/c you never know what is going to work and trying to impose rules simply b/c they worked for some other game seems silly to me.

If in a month of leaguing the clans decide together that OvO is getting ridiculous and they want that as an official rule then it will be so, or if spy becomes too much of a powerhouse and they want a 1 spy class restriction then that too would be implemented. But I don't expect teams to have to play by rules simply b/c I think they might be better for the league. Also who's to say that those won't just be dealt with on their own? We're all adults (well not everyone but you get the analogy) and we all know what is or isn't fair...so why should I have to impose that? I say you guys can play however you want, I am just here to institute the regular structure and keep this going. Yes being in a league means rules, but no one knows what rules are needed atm so it makes no since to try and institute any until we do.

It's "The Fortress Forever League the Community Wants" not "The Fortress Forever League UGC / Dr.Satan / 4est Want."

[Ihmhi]

I think it would be nice to maiantain scrims in the offseason, just so clans can stay strong. They should not be mandatorym of course.

[Vicious]

Scrims are things set up by individual clans though. The leaders will have to speak about that during the potential offseason.

Satan, what about the season idea instead of a ladder?

[Ihmhi]

Seasons are better than ladders, because, well, some people get up to the top and almost never get unseated. d:

Seasonal would be better - way too many leagues use ladders anyway.

[Dr.Satan]

I like the idea it sounds like it might work...I'm checking with a few of the other guys to see what they think.

[Vicious]

And with the handfull of teams that we'll have, I really don't think a ladder is a good idea. Make a 20 game season with a best of seven (instead of 3) playoff... or have a few murderball games lol.

[KubeDawg]

I don't agree with the no OvO rule. That needs to be looked at very well. If I'm on offense, and I see an offensive player on the opposing team, I'm going to do my best to at least get a few pot shots in while still running torwards the enemy base. OvO could also be defined in a way that I could use vcomm to let my teammates know that an enemy is coming in a certain entrance. Why only 1 heavy? I mean, it's pretty simple to go in there, conc a heavy and get the flag. Generally if there is an advantage on defense, there is a weakness somewhere in that defense, and that's where strategy comes into play.

[Vicious]

As it's been stated, no rules currently exist. One could, theoretically, put a heavy on offense and stand at the gates and kill all the medics and scouts that leave. I wouldn't, but it can be done.

[KubeDawg]

True that. But would that be detrimental to the team with the heavy or the medics? If they conc the heavy, he probably cannot shoot too well.

[Vicious]

They heavy can't shoot very well right now without being conced. The point is that no rules are in place yet. The first season will be more of a feeler for what needs to be put into stone than it will be anything else. It'll also settle the dispute between -sn- and {nfo} over who's more powerfull (at least that's what I think).

[Dr.Satan]

well I checked about the season and unfortunately it can't be done...the system is set up to be a ladder and to change it they would have to revamp the entire site and all sorts of ugly stuff. for now we will play ladders but I'm sure we can figure out a way to make that diferent and fun for everyone.

[Vicious]

Why not just make the ladder standing system be the a way of annoucing who the top team is throughout the season? Just because it's structured as a ladder doesn't mean wins and losses throughout the season can't be recorded.

[Dr.Satan]

everything is going to be tracked through konspiracy so it will be that way

but yeah that sounds like a great approach

[Credge]

Concing a skilled heavy is absolutely moot. Considering that this is at a league level, you'd expect to find skilled players. Rarely, if ever, has a conc effected my HW aim... especially since aim in this game is vastly easier than in TFC. Simply looking at the tracers is all it takes.

Base rules need to be established or an assholish approach to league play will spawn, causing nothing but a league of griefers and asshats.

Of course there shouldn't be any map specific rules yet, but there should be after the second time playing the map. Much of this isn't an issue.

It should be against the rules to spam the spawn. This is a simple rule that will be abused greatly if no rules are in place. Offensive demomen can easily mirv out a respawn door. This has always been an issue in 2fort in TFC and won't change here. This has always been a problem on many maps, actually.

No more than a 3 man D should be allowed in a 5v setting. This stops teams from getting an early cap advantage and turtling.

If the previous rule is not enforced then a class limit needs to be put in place. Two SG's in aardvark, coupled with a demoman, hw, and soldier, can hold down aardvark easily. The strategy can change from map-to-map, but the principle is the same. These rules have nothing to do with player skill, it has to do with being fair for both teams and promotes consistency. It also denotes e-peens, one-up-man-ship, griefing, etc. It promotes sportsmanship and, again, consistency in both comparable skill level between players as well as league play.

OVO isn't a major deal. I'm of the persuasion that it shouldn't be allowed due, again, to balance and consistency. OVO simply hurts any offensive efforts and, without any other rules, promotes turtling.

Yard D I could care less about. I feel it should be allowed as long as the flag is there with the exception of snipers, which should be allowed to yard d for the entire map. This is simply so snipers don't get their feelings hurt.

I openly welcome any teams to play snipers and spies against any team I am a member of. In fact, I would promote it.

All in all, I understand wanting to start with a clean slate for the league. I promote this entirely. However, rules need to be in place for any sort of consistent gameplay. Saying that there are 'no rules' for the league is begging for disaster. It's no different than starting a forum designed for talking about the prices of tea in china and allowing 'anything to go'. It eventually turns into 4chan. And we all know how that went.

Edit: To summarize, here's what my cousin has to say about it:

'Sean: having rules is what makes it a match really, if [you have] no rules you have deathmatch with certain teams'

Basically.

[KubeDawg]

I agree with everything you said except the ovo thing, which I wont think should be controlled, however, as far as only 3 defense goes, what if there were 3 defensive classes, one obviously being an engineer, then a 4th class(offensive) went engineer and built a sg, assuming his teammate would back it up, but the 4th would play an offensive role? Would you be opposed to something like that?