Laser Grenade - Too Strong? - Page 3

WiFiDi · 01-11-2012, 02:48 PM

definitly a bit strong don't bring it back to where it was but a bit of nerfing woudl be in order here.

FDA_Approved · 01-11-2012, 04:39 PM

Quote:

lengthen the length of the lasers. Put a second set of 3 lasers spinning the opposite way. Make the laser grenade do something at the very end, a mini emp effect or something.

Rofl, you are to funny. Please don't do that.

To strong as it is. It's an area denial grenade, it's primary function shouldn't be killing. And to many times I've just instagibbed on it. It should only soften someone up.

Trailer · 01-11-2012, 08:34 PM

Personally, I like the laser grenades super powered like they are. They are so easy to get around, that I think you should get owned if you hit a beam, or the dead center. A laser on the flag is not the end all be all. Ive conced past 2 sets of lasers on the flag and survived. The trick is to conc through them so you are going so fast they only have a fraction of a second to do damage.

Now, when douchebags are killing themselves intentionally just to spam lasers on the flag, I agree, that's bullshit. But that is why servers and pickups have admins, because no matter what you implement into this game, SOMEONE is going to find a way to be a complete douche with it.

Iggy · 01-11-2012, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trailer

Personally, I like the laser grenades super powered like they are. They are so easy to get around, that I think you should get owned if you hit a beam, or the dead center. A laser on the flag is not the end all be all. Ive conced past 2 sets of lasers on the flag and survived. The trick is to conc through them so you are going so fast they only have a fraction of a second to do damage.

THIS!

Quote:

Now, when douchebags are killing themselves intentionally just to spam lasers on the flag, I agree, that's bullshit. But that is why servers and pickups have admins, because no matter what you implement into this game, SOMEONE is going to find a way to be a complete douche with it.

Right. You can't micromanage the game, without negatively affecting game play for people that aren't griefing.

BinaryLife · 01-12-2012, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oaties

Ever take the flag lower on ff_monkey in a pickup? Where the respawn is RIGHT next to the flag? gg, wait for flag to return.

Yes, and I've never seen someone suicide just to get grenades. But if you're really all that concerned why not just stick an extra long timer on suicide deaths.

If you believe people are taking advantage of a function, i.e. suicide, then put a limit on that function. When someone kills themselves by typing kill in console or blowing themselves up or fall or what have you then they have to wait an addition X number of seconds to join the fight. That makes the intentional suicide more costly and people will no longer do it on purpose.

It will also limit your gripe about the grenade usage without tweaking the grenade. Even though I've honestly never seen it. As I said in my previous post Certain behaviors will exist regardless of the weapon being used.

FDA_Approved · 01-12-2012, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BinaryLife

Yes, and I've never seen someone suicide just to get grenades. But if you're really all that concerned why not just stick an extra long timer on suicide deaths.

If you believe people are taking advantage of a function, i.e. suicide, then put a limit on that function. When someone kills themselves by typing kill in console or blowing themselves up or fall or what have you then they have to wait an addition X number of seconds to join the fight. That makes the intentional suicide more costly and people will no longer do it on purpose.

It will also limit your gripe about the grenade usage without tweaking the grenade. Even though I've honestly never seen it. As I said in my previous post Certain behaviors will exist regardless of the weapon being used.

But I'm an idiot soldier and I blow myself up on accident in pickups all the time.

WiFiDi · 01-13-2012, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the_cake

Pretty sure I'm the only person who thought the old laser was mostly fine. Just needed a little damage boost. I think the issue with people thinking they were too "weak" is they try to use them like a nail nade, ie just spam them at a corner and hope the explosion kills something. It's a different nade, there's no random-to-the-offence explosion, so you can't use it like that.

I mean it's common sense if you think about it from a fresh point of view. It's just that we as ex tfc players (well, most of us) have had 10 years of nail nades being soldier's secondary, so we use the laser in the same way as a reflex, without even thinking about it. It's the same thing with mirv vs slowfield.

What works great is if you throw one right in front of you, just out of range of the lasers, when you think the o is about to come in. Then use your rockets with the lasers, which hugely increases the chances of hitting something; they have to dodge the lasers and the rockets at the same time.

completey agree your not alone on this one. yes it needed a boost but i think its to powerful as it is now. (now that ive gotten a chance to play with it.)

XPelargos · 01-14-2012, 02:14 AM

It's a little much.

How about gren2 limit 1 for soldiers?

eomoyaff · 01-14-2012, 10:31 AM

I saw a lot of examples, but as I am Professor Moya, with a PHD In FFenomics. I'll go down the list!:

Trailer: You stated that you've conced over two nades while getting the flag. That it's easy to avoid, and the damage is fine. I'd like to see how many times in a row you can pull that off. Surely, everyone get's by the grenade every once in a while. That's not the arguement -- Since the release with what little time I've had to play. In Pub and 2v2's, I've noticed that a good percentage of soldier kills come from laser grenades, downing their amount of rocket kills. The soldiers main weapon should be his primary source of kills, and because of the grenades buff in damage, it's significantly decreased the amount of rocket kills, turning the soldier into a more laid back class. As far as the 2v2's go. You get a soldier playing ramp, and he can just spam those laser grenades, the whole time. Spam lasers, suicide, spam lasers. GL getting the flag. It's easily the worst thing to happen to FF since the Sniper (bewm.)

Gwarsbane: You claimed that they are also easy to get by (as a demo no less) on Aardvark's ramp (Shocker.). That's because Lasers are less inclined to hit the target on an incline while the target is going bazillian miles an hour. Those soldiers aren't very smart in those terms. If I just spammed the laser grenade at the top of the ramp at the choke point. You'd be screwed.

Cake: You stated that the laser grenades are a pain in the ass when it comes to small hallways/corridors, etc etc etc. And they are. Especially when they can be continously spammed (as I stated above.) I'd find a median between the new and old version of that grenade. Or polish the Verticle grenade

I have one more point I want to make: The soldier is a very well balanced class. It's strong on both sides of the field, as a defender, and as a supporter for the offense. From watching players, to playing them, I've seen an amazing amount of material that makes me confident to enough to say that the Soldier would be better off without that grenade. It just makes the class look terrible. The grenade is suppose to be useful, and play a role in serving the players objectives. This laser grenade, with the way it is now, makes it TOO useful. Over-the-top. It makes the Soldier into the new "Pyro" (The most inbalanced class since fortress games started.)

Wouldn't mind seeing Squeeks opinion.

My Vote Stands: The Laser Grenade is way to strong. And does more good to ruin the game.

angrypyro · 01-17-2012, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BinaryLife

Yes, and I've never seen someone suicide just to get grenades. But if you're really all that concerned why not just stick an extra long timer on suicide deaths.

If you believe people are taking advantage of a function, i.e. suicide, then put a limit on that function. When someone kills themselves by typing kill in console or blowing themselves up or fall or what have you then they have to wait an addition X number of seconds to join the fight. That makes the intentional suicide more costly and people will no longer do it on purpose.

It will also limit your gripe about the grenade usage without tweaking the grenade. Even though I've honestly never seen it. As I said in my previous post Certain behaviors will exist regardless of the weapon being used.

I feel like if it is advantageous to kill yourself rather than stay alive, that is a design flaw. That means bad players who get killed a lot will have an advantage since they will have grenades more often. Also there are often other reasons to suicide too. ex: getting conced as a sniper (its faster to respawn and return to sniper deck than wait out the conc effects) or being infected before the latest infection changes. The respawn suicide delay is also useless because if you change classes, you respawn without the timer.

oaties · 01-17-2012, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angrypyro

I feel like if it is advantageous to kill yourself rather than stay alive, that is a design flaw. That means bad players who get killed a lot will have an advantage since they will have grenades more often. Also there are often other reasons to suicide too. ex: getting conced as a sniper (its faster to respawn and return to sniper deck than wait out the conc effects) or being infected before the latest infection changes. The respawn suicide delay is also useless because if you change classes, you respawn without the timer.

When it comes to killing yourself as an advantage, it really depends on the context. I feel that in some cases it can actually reward a good player. For example, lets say you are playing button soldier on destroy in a 4v4 pickup. If you aren't that great, you might get near death from 1 medic, and if you suicide after killing 1 medic, that leaves a window for the 3 other attackers to enter your flag room.

If you are good however, and the enemy has 4 medics and they all rush you, and you kill all 4 and are left at low health, you could just suicide and be back sooner before they get back.

Raynian · 01-18-2012, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

Words.

I was inclined to agree with you fully at this point. But then I saw...

Quote:

It makes the Soldier into the new "Pyro" (The most inbalanced class since fortress games started.

No.

CHURCHMOUTH · 01-20-2012, 04:13 PM

it doesnt matter if a bad player dies a lot and gets more nades.. they are bad players and are going to waste the nades anyways

Trailer · 01-31-2012, 11:24 PM

After playing many 2v2's 4v4's and pubs, I have completely changed my mind about the lasers. The damage output is completely ridiculous, and on MANY MANY pickups there are certain players who love to spam the shit out of them constantly. Lasers make this game completely broken now and are the most rage inducing aspect this game could ever have.

**squeek.** · 02-01-2012, 12:06 AM

I agree, but I'm beginning to think it might need a more involved solution than just a reduction in damage.

The problem with the current laser grenade is that the center is 100% consistent at dealing damage, which means that if you intentionally put the center of the grenade at a point that a player must pass through (directly on the flag being the prime example), you essentially force them to take damage or wait out the duration of the grenade (ironically/sadly, this is a problem that was identified with the nail grenade that we were trying to fix). This, combined with the long duration of the laser grenade means that it is an amazing tool for point denial (not necessarily area denial, as only the center is truly denied), but is also entirely non-interactive and totally frustrating. Plus, the long duration means that you're almost always wasting too much time if you try to wait it out, and it certainly doesn't help that the damage is currently so high that you die if you touch the center.

So, to solve this problem without changing the fundamentals of the grenade, we have two options:

Reduce the duration of the grenade, thereby making the point denied for less time
Reduce the damage of the grenade or, better yet, make the center do less damage while keeping the beams roughly the same

The problem with both of these options is that they are mostly a masking of the real issue. The first just reduces the probability that you'll be stuck in the non-choice of waiting out the grenade or taking the extremely high-stakes gamble of trying to miraculously dodge the damage. It potentially reduces the frustration, but doesn't fix the actual issue. The second has the potential to cut more directly to the problem, but it still likely leaves the laser grenade as most useful when spammed on a single point, as that would still probably be the most consistent way of insuring damage dealt. Given that, though, the second might be a good choice for a quick band-aid (it's already coded).

A solution that I am thinking about looking into seriously is to cut out the center of the laser grenade entirely. As in, make the lasers start a certain distance away from the grenade itself, leaving a safe circular gap in the center. This solves the point-denial problem entirely as it removes the potential for 100% consistent damage; the only way of dealing damage would be with the rotating beams, so throwing it directly on a flag would be far less useful and throwing it in out front of you and taking advantage of the more predictable movement of your enemies would become a more viable use of the grenade. One thing that I haven't figured out, though, is how to show this visually without it looking completely weird (laser beams coming out of thin air).

**Crazycarl** · 02-01-2012, 12:45 AM

The thing hovers anyway; we could make floaty emitters pop out and spin around. There's be no need to even have the grenade remain in the center.

Or replace "laser" with "ball of plasma".

**squeek.** · 02-01-2012, 12:48 AM

Indeed.

Trailer · 02-01-2012, 08:54 PM

I think that both should be done. Cut out the center, shorten the duration, and lessen the damage by about 25% or so. 1 laser nade max too.

The solution to alleviate spam has actually encouraged even more spam.

**squeek.** · 02-01-2012, 09:01 PM

Game design is hard.

FDA_Approved · 02-01-2012, 11:51 PM

If you just take out the center you can still put two lazers on opposite sides of the flag.

I don't think it's possible to stop people from spaming the flag.

View Poll Results: Is the current Laser Grenade too strong?
Yes	20	51.28%
No	19	48.72%
Voters: 39. You may not vote on this poll

01-11-2012, 02:48 PM	#41
WiFiDi Beta Tester Join Date: May 2010 Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: Capture the Flag is there any other Posts Rated Helpful 26 Times	definitly a bit strong don't bring it back to where it was but a bit of nerfing woudl be in order here. __________________ WiFi's Stream Support FF: Failure is always an option. It's a happy massacre?! (yes, yes it is!) To make most awesome thing in universe combine Bears and Nicholas Cage! and remember kids, we didn't start the flame-war!

01-11-2012, 08:34 PM	#43
Trailer [Caleb] Beta Tester Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: South Carolina Class/Position: O Scout, D demo and Engy Gametype: Attack / Defend Affiliations: -nZ [LAW] TG M\|M TRISPIRAL (Back in the TFC days) Posts Rated Helpful 15 Times	Personally, I like the laser grenades super powered like they are. They are so easy to get around, that I think you should get owned if you hit a beam, or the dead center. A laser on the flag is not the end all be all. Ive conced past 2 sets of lasers on the flag and survived. The trick is to conc through them so you are going so fast they only have a fraction of a second to do damage. Now, when douchebags are killing themselves intentionally just to spam lasers on the flag, I agree, that's bullshit. But that is why servers and pickups have admins, because no matter what you implement into this game, SOMEONE is going to find a way to be a complete douche with it. __________________ You're not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You're not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your fucking khakis. You're the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world.

01-14-2012, 10:31 AM	#49
eomoyaff The Crowbar Commander Beta Tester Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Statesville, NC Class/Position: Anything. Gametype: CTF/CP (AvD needs fixing) Posts Rated Helpful 28 Times	I saw a lot of examples, but as I am Professor Moya, with a PHD In FFenomics. I'll go down the list!: Trailer: You stated that you've conced over two nades while getting the flag. That it's easy to avoid, and the damage is fine. I'd like to see how many times in a row you can pull that off. Surely, everyone get's by the grenade every once in a while. That's not the arguement -- Since the release with what little time I've had to play. In Pub and 2v2's, I've noticed that a good percentage of soldier kills come from laser grenades, downing their amount of rocket kills. The soldiers main weapon should be his primary source of kills, and because of the grenades buff in damage, it's significantly decreased the amount of rocket kills, turning the soldier into a more laid back class. As far as the 2v2's go. You get a soldier playing ramp, and he can just spam those laser grenades, the whole time. Spam lasers, suicide, spam lasers. GL getting the flag. It's easily the worst thing to happen to FF since the Sniper (bewm.) Gwarsbane: You claimed that they are also easy to get by (as a demo no less) on Aardvark's ramp (Shocker.). That's because Lasers are less inclined to hit the target on an incline while the target is going bazillian miles an hour. Those soldiers aren't very smart in those terms. If I just spammed the laser grenade at the top of the ramp at the choke point. You'd be screwed. Cake: You stated that the laser grenades are a pain in the ass when it comes to small hallways/corridors, etc etc etc. And they are. Especially when they can be continously spammed (as I stated above.) I'd find a median between the new and old version of that grenade. Or polish the Verticle grenade I have one more point I want to make: The soldier is a very well balanced class. It's strong on both sides of the field, as a defender, and as a supporter for the offense. From watching players, to playing them, I've seen an amazing amount of material that makes me confident to enough to say that the Soldier would be better off without that grenade. It just makes the class look terrible. The grenade is suppose to be useful, and play a role in serving the players objectives. This laser grenade, with the way it is now, makes it TOO useful. Over-the-top. It makes the Soldier into the new "Pyro" (The most inbalanced class since fortress games started.) Wouldn't mind seeing Squeeks opinion. My Vote Stands: The Laser Grenade is way to strong. And does more good to ruin the game.
	2 members found this post helpful.

01-20-2012, 04:13 PM	#53
CHURCHMOUTH crystaLcity D&A Member Beta Tester Join Date: May 2009 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Class/Position: Soldier D Gametype: Capture the Flag Affiliations: Goodfellas Posts Rated Helpful 7 Times	it doesnt matter if a bad player dies a lot and gets more nades.. they are bad players and are going to waste the nades anyways __________________ 83745 L0LZ ff_nyx_b2 ff_schrape_b3 ff_security_b1 ff_baked_b2 ff_reloaded_b1 ff_mulch_dm_b2 ff_oppose_b1

01-14-2012, 02:14 AM	#48
XPelargos I like to spam binds Beta Tester Join Date: May 2009 Class/Position: Scoooooot Gametype: Capture the Flag Posts Rated Helpful 73 Times	It's a little much. How about gren2 limit 1 for soldiers?

01-31-2012, 11:24 PM	#54
Trailer [Caleb] Beta Tester Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: South Carolina Class/Position: O Scout, D demo and Engy Gametype: Attack / Defend Affiliations: -nZ [LAW] TG M\|M TRISPIRAL (Back in the TFC days) Posts Rated Helpful 15 Times	After playing many 2v2's 4v4's and pubs, I have completely changed my mind about the lasers. The damage output is completely ridiculous, and on MANY MANY pickups there are certain players who love to spam the shit out of them constantly. Lasers make this game completely broken now and are the most rage inducing aspect this game could ever have. __________________ You're not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You're not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your fucking khakis. You're the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world.

02-01-2012, 12:06 AM	#55
squeek. Stuff Do-er Lua Team Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Northern California Class/Position: Rallygun Shooter Gametype: Conc tag (you just wait) Affiliations: Mustache Brigade Posts Rated Helpful 352 Times	I agree, but I'm beginning to think it might need a more involved solution than just a reduction in damage. The problem with the current laser grenade is that the center is 100% consistent at dealing damage, which means that if you intentionally put the center of the grenade at a point that a player must pass through (directly on the flag being the prime example), you essentially force them to take damage or wait out the duration of the grenade (ironically/sadly, this is a problem that was identified with the nail grenade that we were trying to fix). This, combined with the long duration of the laser grenade means that it is an amazing tool for point denial (not necessarily area denial, as only the center is truly denied), but is also entirely non-interactive and totally frustrating. Plus, the long duration means that you're almost always wasting too much time if you try to wait it out, and it certainly doesn't help that the damage is currently so high that you die if you touch the center. So, to solve this problem without changing the fundamentals of the grenade, we have two options: Reduce the duration of the grenade, thereby making the point denied for less time Reduce the damage of the grenade or, better yet, make the center do less damage while keeping the beams roughly the same The problem with both of these options is that they are mostly a masking of the real issue. The first just reduces the probability that you'll be stuck in the non-choice of waiting out the grenade or taking the extremely high-stakes gamble of trying to miraculously dodge the damage. It potentially reduces the frustration, but doesn't fix the actual issue. The second has the potential to cut more directly to the problem, but it still likely leaves the laser grenade as most useful when spammed on a single point, as that would still probably be the most consistent way of insuring damage dealt. Given that, though, the second might be a good choice for a quick band-aid (it's already coded). A solution that I am thinking about looking into seriously is to cut out the center of the laser grenade entirely. As in, make the lasers start a certain distance away from the grenade itself, leaving a safe circular gap in the center. This solves the point-denial problem entirely as it removes the potential for 100% consistent damage; the only way of dealing damage would be with the rotating beams, so throwing it directly on a flag would be far less useful and throwing it in out front of you and taking advantage of the more predictable movement of your enemies would become a more viable use of the grenade. One thing that I haven't figured out, though, is how to show this visually without it looking completely weird (laser beams coming out of thin air). __________________ #FF.Pickup ¤ Fortress-Forever pickups My Non-official Maps Released FF_DM_Squeek - FF_2Mesa3_Classic - FF_Siege_Classic Beta FF_Myth - FF_Redlight_Greenlight Sick of the people on the internet, always moanin'. They just moan. - Karl Pilkington Last edited by squeek.; 02-01-2012 at 12:37 AM.

02-01-2012, 12:45 AM	#56
Crazycarl D&A Member Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 31 Times	The thing hovers anyway; we could make floaty emitters pop out and spin around. There's be no need to even have the grenade remain in the center. Or replace "laser" with "ball of plasma". __________________ Support FF:

02-01-2012, 12:48 AM	#57
squeek. Stuff Do-er Lua Team Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Northern California Class/Position: Rallygun Shooter Gametype: Conc tag (you just wait) Affiliations: Mustache Brigade Posts Rated Helpful 352 Times	Indeed. __________________ #FF.Pickup ¤ Fortress-Forever pickups My Non-official Maps Released FF_DM_Squeek - FF_2Mesa3_Classic - FF_Siege_Classic Beta FF_Myth - FF_Redlight_Greenlight Sick of the people on the internet, always moanin'. They just moan. - Karl Pilkington

02-01-2012, 08:54 PM	#58
Trailer [Caleb] Beta Tester Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: South Carolina Class/Position: O Scout, D demo and Engy Gametype: Attack / Defend Affiliations: -nZ [LAW] TG M\|M TRISPIRAL (Back in the TFC days) Posts Rated Helpful 15 Times	I think that both should be done. Cut out the center, shorten the duration, and lessen the damage by about 25% or so. 1 laser nade max too. The solution to alleviate spam has actually encouraged even more spam. __________________ You're not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You're not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your fucking khakis. You're the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world.

02-01-2012, 09:01 PM	#59
squeek. Stuff Do-er Lua Team Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Northern California Class/Position: Rallygun Shooter Gametype: Conc tag (you just wait) Affiliations: Mustache Brigade Posts Rated Helpful 352 Times	Game design is hard. __________________ #FF.Pickup ¤ Fortress-Forever pickups My Non-official Maps Released FF_DM_Squeek - FF_2Mesa3_Classic - FF_Siege_Classic Beta FF_Myth - FF_Redlight_Greenlight Sick of the people on the internet, always moanin'. They just moan. - Karl Pilkington

02-01-2012, 11:51 PM	#60
FDA_Approved Beta Tester Join Date: Nov 2011 Gametype: Capture the Flag Posts Rated Helpful 293 Times	If you just take out the center you can still put two lazers on opposite sides of the flag. I don't think it's possible to stop people from spaming the flag.

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