Poll/Disc on Health & Armor

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by Eon Seig

Why people vote to keep a system that does absolutely nothing we couldn't do more easily with a less redundant single number that can be more easily understood by potential new players (yeah I bet we need those, don't we) eludes me.

It's the same reason this game has been going downhill in every other respect. It's the appeal to tradition over and over. People are too stupid to think for themselves, so they become intellectually lazy and say "Well, that wasn't in TFC, so we don't need it here." They will say that even if the suggestion is a complete or close to complete improvement over the previous system.

Armor is terribly redundant. It's not an interactive mechanic. The same effect can be achieved with a single simplified value intuitively understandable by everyone. Armor is one of those 'cool kid' mechanics. They're added to make the game more complicated (in a negative sense) and when people grow tolerant of how counter-intuitive and stupid such a mechanic is, they delude themselves into thinking they have become more experienced. Ha!

Originally Posted by moosh

If we remove armour,why not remove health too? It just complicates things!

Let's simplify a great game until there's nothing left,just to attract some fucking new people.

You assume simplification is a bad thing. What bad will happen if armor is removed in favor of a single easy-to-understand variable? Why should armor stay? Is your only reason an appeal to tradition? Spare me the slippery slope fallacy, too.

[Don]

Originally Posted by moosh

If we remove armour,why not remove health too? It just complicates things!

Let's simplify a great game until there's nothing left,just to attract some fucking new people.

umm...if there was no health.....there would be lots of dead people........dead people........dead..... people...........zombies......zombie games are popular.......maybe.......a zombie class......yes....YESS ......OMFG YES!



But srsly armour is needed for the game, I have thought of more reasons:

11. Armour is steeped in tradition and has been the garment of choice for fighters for centuries
12. Removing armour might cause people to stop wearing armour in real life and could cause accidents outside of game esp. if some players are in police force or in army
13. Armour is well known to people who play half-life and may cause confusion if it is removed
14. Statistically speaking people who wear armour are less likely to be killed in game
15. Over simplification might lead to FF heading the way of the iphone (just imagine if FF becomes touchscreen - what a nightmare)

I have hundreds more reasons but I am so passionate about this subject I am taking a break to carry on with my romance/vampire novel.

[Bridget]

I think the #1 argument for the preservation of armor is that converting to a health-only system would encourage mass murder. A health-only system would condition easily influenced individuals that life is one-dimensional and easily taken. Armor acts as an equalizer; confusing the player and preventing thoughts of genocide.

It is a well known fact that first-person shooters created in the early 1930's that did not include redundant mechanics such as armor to confuse the player long enough to smother the raging fire of hatred inspired Adolf Hitler and the Nazis to kill poor little Anne Frank. So, what's it going to be? Side with Hitler or support a civilized society?



(in before "your translation is incorrect")

[thiz]

Why doesn't Quake remove armour, whenever I play that game I am completely confused by the complexity of it all, no wonder no one plays it. Oh wait is it Quake where if you get railed with health you die but with health and some armour you live? STUPID REDUNDANT MECHANICS.

TF2 is the best game in the world simply because it does not have armour, absolutely flawless. So fuck off and play it.

[Bridget]

I don't like armor in Quake either. Any game that lets someone with piss-poor accuracy lock down someone else with godlike accuracy simply by controlling item spawns (via memorizing their respawn times and locations) seems kinda stupid to me. Deathmatch games, for me, are about who has the better accuracy not who can control the map. I'll play a sector-based RTS game if I care about that.

I'm not a big fan of item management. My ideal deathmatch game is one with situational weapons, no armor, dynamic spawning, threshold damage (a la cod), where each player spawns with every weapon with infinite ammunition. You know, a level playing field where the only decider is who can dish out the most damage.

But, in the meantime, you mad? Team Fortress 2 is not flawless, but the decision to remove redundancies like armor has made it pretty successful. I can't believe those Valve guys, though. How could they actually model a game around simplicity and fun? What were they thinking consulting the consumer while developing a product for consumers? Communities? Players? These people know nothing.

These Valve guys are really radical. I'd call them and tell them how poor of a job they've done, but they're probably too busy counting their money and basking in sweet motherfuckin' success.

[Dexter]

simplify game
let terrible players randomly get kills every now and then
make every gamer feel special
market to masses
$$$$$

gaming 2010

edit: bridget suggestions = tf2. you think its great, we get it, most people dont disagree. we could just blatantly copy it across the board, but where would that get us?

[Dexter]

Originally Posted by Bridget

I don't like armor in Quake either. Any game that lets someone with piss-poor accuracy lock down someone else with godlike accuracy simply by controlling item spawns (via memorizing their respawn times and locations) seems kinda stupid to me. Deathmatch games, for me, are about who has the better accuracy not who can control the map. I'll play a sector-based RTS game if I care about that.

This isnt true at all fyi. If you out-aim someone by any decent margin, you will be able to take someone way more stacked down. all you have to do is break their timing once and they're probably going to be fucked if they cant outaim you or play defensively long enough

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Dexter

simplify game
let terrible players randomly get kills every now and then
make every gamer feel special
market to masses
$$$$$

gaming 2010

edit: bridget suggestions = tf2. you think its great, we get it, most people dont disagree. we could just blatantly copy it across the board, but where would that get us?

See the sweeping generalization fallacy. While I think a few of Bridget's suggestions sound a tad close to TF2 turf, others have fuckall to do with it. If you lump all that together mentally, you shouldn't be making gameplay decisions.

This one does copy TF2's style, but what's the ADVANTAGE of the current system? It's very clunky and is about as smooth and efficient as melee-based healing in FF. Eliminating armor altogether sounds a bit drastic, I agree, however you're acting like you can't even see the problem at all and are just pointing to Bridget as though that explains everything.

[thiz]

Backline defence. A comparison.

Team 1's soldier relies on running to the resupply for health and armour, leaving the flag exposed, the sg goes down, defence falls apart. 5/10

Team 2's soldier works with his engineer to keep his armour up, he lasts twice as long as team 1's soldier due to his constant supply of armour, but eventually goes down due to health becoming an issue. 8/10

Team 3's soldier has no armour, he took it off and went with a hilarious hat instead, a medic heals him all game with a gluon gun. He holds the flag, 0 caps, he's from tf2, and no one wants to play ctf anyone. 10/10

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by Dexter

simplify game
let terrible players randomly get kills every now and then
make every gamer feel special
market to masses
$$$$$

gaming 2010

edit: bridget suggestions = tf2. you think its great, we get it, most people dont disagree. we could just blatantly copy it across the board, but where would that get us?

What kids will do nowadays just to make a quick buck aka make a game with easy gameplay and realistic graphics.

Let's take a look at WoW. WoW went from 40man raids to pretty much 10/25 man raids because the little fucking babies cried it was too hard to get 40 people together. They then complained that even that was too hard and didn't have enough tanks, so they made druids and paladins easy mode tanks. *side note, I still owned those scrubby ass dr00d,gayadins as a Prot Warrior*
Dr00ds cried because they got crushed too much, and paladins QQed because of crits(you needed x amount of DEF not to be critted), so they removed Crushing Blows and made it easier for Paladins to get DEF. Now we have WoW:WoTLK. A nub ass game which any cunt can play. All the good players left and all the nubs stayed.

Quick Summary : WoW became ultra fucking gay.

Back to the topic of Health/Armour.

I do not see anything wrong with it, it's just a different System.

Is it really that hard to understand? Armour is more important then your health.

Lets look at it in a real life perspective. I am fighting a dude, he has Kevlar on, I have nothing on. Yes, We're both butt ass fucking naked dueling to the death with .45s.

I shoot him in the chest, he lives. He shoots me in the chest,I scream like a little bitch because I was completely naked without armour. He had 100/100 I had 100/0 then 0/0! The dude with Kevlar was a bitch by the way, I knew I should of just thrown a grenade at his cunt ass. There is nothing wrong with a Health/Armour System nor is there any wrong with just a Health System.

Halo uses the system FF uses, HOW MANY FUCKING PEOPLE PLAY THAT. Yea suck my cock. Mass Effect 1/2 uses it, many games do.

You don't see them act stupid and go, "OMG ARMOUR IS SOOO GAY"


Oh, Bridget, when was the last time you played FF anyway?


PS: Dexter sucks donkey dick, god he's a slimly fucking cunt box.
PSS: Supposedly I am an angry fucking Jew.

[Dexter]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

See the sweeping generalization fallacy. While I think a few of Bridget's suggestions sound a tad close to TF2 turf, others have fuckall to do with it. If you lump all that together mentally, you shouldn't be making gameplay decisions.

This one does copy TF2's style, but what's the ADVANTAGE of the current system? It's very clunky and is about as smooth and efficient as melee-based healing in FF. Eliminating armor altogether sounds a bit drastic, I agree, however you're acting like you can't even see the problem at all and are just pointing to Bridget as though that explains everything.

Sure, fair enough. Luckily for you, I don't make gameplay decisions
My feeling with armor is, dont fix what's not broken at this point. Seems extremely minor when we have other huge gameplay issues to fix anyway

[Born_In_Xixax]

What sailed right on by most of you in this thread is the reference to possibly the greatest single web site for truth and justice on the internet today: http://www.logicalfallacies.info/

It was new to me, thanks for that ChilledSanity/Bridget

If you've ever read a post whose argument makes you want to cringe, shriek, or tear out your hair, but you didn't know why - chances are it's because it exhibits one of these logical fallacies. Master these categories, and you will rule the internet...or at least not make a complete ass of yourself when you try to make a point, like you usually do. I dare you to review your internet post history in light of this site and accept the judgement.

If discourse of all types - including political, but especially internet forum - could be automatically filtered and tagged according to fallacy type, the world would be a wiser (and far, far more quiet) place.

[Bridget]

Armor is redundant. The only argument in favor of armor is the dependency argument. "If I have armor, that keeps me alive longer than someone who does not have armor." So? If you have full health, then you'll last longer than someone who has half health. The same effect scales in a different context. It's just less of a redundant confusion in the latter context. If you have 130 health, you pretty much instantly know that you can survive a 125 damage rocket. If you have less than 130 points of health but some 100 points of armor, well, now it's complicated figuring out whether you'll survive or not. These are mechanics FF thrives on: redundant, vague, complicated. These are the mechanics people delude themselves into thinking they've become experienced with when they grow tolerant of how counter-intuitive and retarded they are.

Oh, there's that "depth" thing. Yeah, a lot of things can add depth, but it isn't necessarilly always a good thing. For example, I could implement a system that made every player immune to all types of damage for 5 seconds, followed by 5 seconds of vulnerability, repeated over and over. It might add some "depth" or "challenge" timing your shots to hit your opponent when he's vulnerable, but we would all presumably argue that it's pretty fucking bad/irritating/stupid/retarded/etc. That's pretty much my argument against armor. Sure, it adds depth or a challenge trying to figure out if your armor provides you one more "go" at the objective, but it's fucking bad/irritating/stupid/retarded/etc in how you have to go about it.

Besides, you don't need every god damn mechanic in Fortress Forever to be "skill-based". You shouldn't have to gain experience to know when you're going to die or when you're going to survive. What if we implemented the necessity for winning a game of chess (which takes skill) before you could fucking spawn? What if some dick decided on adding a huge gap between the spawn and actual map in every official map so only those skilled enough to conc over it could actually play? What if you had to crack an elaborate combination system just to toss a fragmentation grenade? Shit, that'd be terrible. But, that's essentially what armor is. We have to apply "skill" to every little mechanic. You have to be experienced in absolutely every aspect of a game to enjoy it.

That's pretty much FF in a nutshell. It thrives on making things mega complicated. That's why no one gives a shit about it, and while it will inevitably die out. People play games to have fun. They play games for entertainment purposes. This is 2010 not 1996. People no longer pride themselves on growing tolerant of redundant/poor mechanics. Enjoy living in your own little world.

Originally Posted by Ricey

Oh, Bridget, when was the last time you played FF anyway?

I last played two or three days ago. Good try, though.

Originally Posted by Dexter

Sure, fair enough. Luckily for you, I don't make gameplay decisions
My feeling with armor is, dont fix what's not broken at this point. Seems extremely minor when we have other huge gameplay issues to fix anyway

This is a classic development excuse. Everything gets ignored as 'not a top priority'. Meanwhile, the beta is chalk full of stupid additions that are not a top priority.

[Crazycarl]

My problem with the armor system is not that it's complex, it's that it's not fun. Let's investigate:

-you start with full armor, so it's taken for granted.
-the armor's effectiveness is binary. If you have armor, it absorbs a certain percentage or damage.
-once the armor's gone, you're at a huge disadvantage.

-therefore the game penalizes you for staying alive for too long.
-and this makes healing rather pointless.

What would be better is to make armor a powerup. You only get it from pickups or engineers/dispensers. Your normal class armor would be hidden and never runs out. This feels like a bonus and encourages people to buf their armor more.

Another problem is the lack of feedback to the player. I know I don't keep an eye on my armor points. When your armor runs out, there's no indication that anything has changed. Suddenly everything hurts you more and then you die.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Ricey

There is nothing wrong with a Health/Armour System nor is there any wrong with just a Health System.

Halo uses the system FF uses, HOW MANY FUCKING PEOPLE PLAY THAT. Yea suck my cock. Mass Effect 1/2 uses it, many games do.

Say you took a beating and want to replenish your life. While CTF players can just run back into their base, in AvD it's not always an option or practical. The problem with the current system is it takes the cooperation of 3 people to fully restore 1 person.

Also both Halo and Mass Effect use regenerative shields, which occur after a fairly short time period, so that's not really a valid example. You can argue ng uses the same system, but armor isn't a problem for him in the first palce.

Originally Posted by Dexter

Sure, fair enough. Luckily for you, I don't make gameplay decisions
My feeling with armor is, dont fix what's not broken at this point. Seems extremely minor when we have other huge gameplay issues to fix anyway

Very true, there are far bigger problems than this, I just commented since Bridget created a thread specifically for the issue.

Originally Posted by Born in Xixax

It was new to me, thanks for that ChilledSanity

I think it's new for most people here. It's also not the first time I've mentioned this, though I didn't link to that site last time, I just did a quick search that describes the fallacy. Many, many of the discussions in the FF forums are simply awash in logical fallacies. So much so I was toying with the idea of making a flowchart and showing every fallacy I've seen by some of the devs defending the gameplay decisions to try and extrapolate the development process. I probably won't get around to it though, it would be a very large chart.

It's only recently that I've decided to just start calling people out on which fallacies they're making, but I doubt it will change much of anything. You can lead a horse to water, but a jackass will want to mix his own drinks.

[Don]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

What would be better is to make armor a powerup. You only get it from pickups or engineers/dispensers. Your normal class armor would be hidden and never runs out. This feels like a bonus and encourages people to buf their armor more.

Another problem is the lack of feedback to the player. I know I don't keep an eye on my armor points. When your armor runs out, there's no indication that anything has changed. Suddenly everything hurts you more and then you die.

Great ideas!!

1. Normal Class armour is hidden, never runs out - love that idea!
2. Only getting powerup armour from engineers and dispensers - that could be fun and could add more to engineer gameplay and teamplay.
3. In game Feedback for current armour system - Could be a warning sign/blink

[Elmo]

I have to say I really like that idea carl.

[WiFiDi]

Originally Posted by Don

umm...if there was no health.....there would be lots of dead people........dead people........dead..... people...........zombies......zombie games are popular.......maybe.......a zombie class......yes....YESS ......OMFG YES!



But srsly armour is needed for the game, I have thought of more reasons:

11. Armour is steeped in tradition and has been the garment of choice for fighters for centuries
12. Removing armour might cause people to stop wearing armour in real life and could cause accidents outside of game esp. if some players are in police force or in army
13. Armour is well known to people who play half-life and may cause confusion if it is removed
14. Statistically speaking people who wear armour are less likely to be killed in game
15. Over simplification might lead to FF heading the way of the iphone (just imagine if FF becomes touchscreen - what a nightmare)

I have hundreds more reasons but I am so passionate about this subject I am taking a break to carry on with my romance/vampire novel.

these aren't even valid either more like child's brainstorming than reasons. pick it up i won't to see reasons that aren't so bad i have to cry in a corner. its like child's play to me. i want to debate a point but i can't with your logic.

the real thing is armor needs to be changed not removed but integrated into hp. a separate value because right now there's no reason for it just tradition and makes it more complex to really bad reasons in my case. just because something complex doesn't mean that it should be i mean look at the mac do you hate the mac because its not as complicated as a pc. if you do please tell me and i will send you a mac i hate mac because its over priced and not suited for gaming. tradition what the fuck that never does anything but hold someone back. however this can be a good thing sometimes but in this case its not.

[Ricey]

Originally Posted by WiFiDi

the real thing is armor needs to be changed not removed but integrated into hp. a separate value because right now there's no reason for it just tradition and makes it more complex to really bad reasons in my case. just because something complex doesn't mean that it should be i mean look at the mac do you hate the mac because its not as complicated as a pc. if you do please tell me and i will send you a mac i hate mac because its over priced and not suited for gaming. tradition what the fuck that never does anything but hold someone back. however this can be a good thing sometimes but in this case its not.

You sir, are a fucking idiot. My macbook pro runs Half Life 2 just as well as this computer. It also look 100% sexier then any Windows laptop.

By the way a Mac is a PERSONAL COMPUTAH. Idiot.

My MacBook Pro was $2,700. What did I get with it.

• Adobe CS4 Master Suite
• Apple Care 3 Year Plan
• iLife
• Apple Store Locations: Which means I go to their STORE and they ship it out if need be.
• People in Coffee Shops being jealous because my laptop is all nice and shiny

Apple 3 Year Plan is i think 250-300 bucks. iLife is 100(I got this for free), CS4 you should know the price on that.
SO SUCK IT FATTY.

What was the topic again? oh you being an idiot.

Armour is fine,QQ.


@chilled:
Yea, Halo and Mass Effect Series isn't the best comparison but they use the same kind of system. But, my point was their system(s) work and people don't cry about it on a daily basis. It helps that Shields Auto-Regen, but look at Mass Effect, you can upgrade the Shields/Armour(Grunt was the fucking man, better then Wrex). People completely understood the use of armour.

Yes FF's system is different, it just lacks a clear explanation of what it does, but newbie understand it quickly, that if they dont have armour they will die faster.

You don't need to rework the Health/Armour system it's self, but what needs to be reworked is the repairing of it on maps. Mainly AvD.

In game Feedback for current armour system - Could be a warning sign/blink

Don, you are SMART. No, I'm not be a jackass, you are smart and Wifidsididi is a complete idiot.

You guys complain so much about how long it takes to release patches, but then you suggest COMPLETE REWORKS of gameplay. MAKE UP YOUR MINDS!

[Don]

Originally Posted by WiFiDi

these aren't even valid either more like child's brainstorming than reasons. pick it up i won't to see reasons that aren't so bad i have to cry in a corner. its like child's play to me. i want to debate a point but i can't with your logic.

Can someone back me up here? My points are good ones. I have 15 of them, and many, many more.

Some highlights from my many reasons 0 - 500:

58. Armour protects from serious injury in game and is why players who have armour like HW don't bleed to death. It would be like infection but worse.
73. Armour actually looks good - think how skinny the models in game would look without it.
74. Armour needs to stay because in the future, class-specific armour mods can be introduced (e.g. anti-thermal armour for spy, to make the heat seeking SG missiles useless) [Another mod I was thinking about is rubber/kevlar hybrid armour for the scout which would allow more bounce on jumppads and protection when slamming walls]
80. Armour adds teamplay to the game. In Roman times, soldiers would form turtle formation with shields (armour), and they were definitely acting as a team to defeat their enemies. That's just an example. This would be lost if FF removed armour.
81. Sometimes I find that armour improves my maths - I look at the armour and hp figures and add them up for fun, or subtract. So armour is educational for me. (But that is really a personal reason)


P.S. Thanks for back up ricey