Let's talk about Achievements.

[Hawk Eye]

Why should one grind for achievements in the first place? I just see them as milestones. "Hey, Frank. I totally killed 1000 medics as a solly." "Bullshit" "Check it."

[Bridget]

I remember when Scout unlocks came to TF2 and Scouts were standing in doorways jumping up and down to get the "double jump 1,000 times" achievement. Do you think they would honestly be doing that if there was no reward tied to it? Lol

[Everything]

That shit was annoying.

Even more annoying when you're playing in a public match, and one of your teammates keeps double jumping in one spot for the entire match.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by Bridget

It's like adding an achievement that says "Spam your rockets into the air toward an airborne target 1,000,000 times." and hoping eventually, they'll learn how to land airshots effectively. There might be more intuitive, interactive, and entertaining ways to teach people.

I think we're having a disconnect here because I still don't follow you.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by Hawk Eye

Why should one grind for achievements in the first place? I just see them as milestones. "Hey, Frank. I totally killed 1000 medics as a solly." "Bullshit" "Check it."

This is it. With no reward there's no such thing as a grind. It's a measurement of a stat with a milestone attached to it.

[TheKing]

The only way I would be in favor of achievements is if they were completely status-driven and in no way affected gameplay. Getting a hat for capping 20 times is cool, getting an extra weapon or ability is not.

[Gwarsbane]

The milestone is the reward.

I personally couldn't care less about achievements. If a game has them with or without an actual reward (points or a hat or what ever) there will still be people trying to do with locked down servers with others joining them doing the same thing.


If you're going to do them, then make them so you don't have a clue what they are, and start them out with high numbers.

Kill an enemy scout with a crowbar 100 times
Kill an enemy scout with a crowbar 1000 times
Kill an enemy scout with a crowbar 10000 times

Take and cap an enemy flag 100 times
Take and cap an enemy flag 1000 times
Take and cap an enemy flag 10000 times

Tranq and backstab an enemy Pryo 100 times
Tranq and backstab an enemy Pryo 1000 times
Tranq and backstab an enemy Pryo 10000 times

Make some of them really hard

Back to back to back to back kills (kill 4 people with in 3 seconds of each other) (100, 1000, 10000)

Crowbar a L1 SG (100, 1000, 10000)
Crowbar a L2 SG (100, 1000, 10000)
Crowbar a L3 SG (100, 1000, 10000)

Make them things you would do in the game anyway.

In the achievements section Just have a big blank space. This way no one knows how many actual achievements there are.

If someone has gotten to the 100 mark, then then they hit the 1000 mark for one of them, instead of adding it to the page, just replace the 100 one with the 1000 that way you keep them guessing at how many achievements there actually are.

[Hawk Eye]

Originally Posted by Bridget

I remember when Scout unlocks came to TF2 and Scouts were standing in doorways jumping up and down to get the "double jump 1,000 times" achievement. Do you think they would honestly be doing that if there was no reward tied to it? Lol

That's my point... you don't. in TF2 you'd eventually double jump 1k times just by playing the game. That's what makes achievements neat to me. "Grinding" them is bullshit, imo... all the more reason not to tie anything to it.

[Dr.Satan]

yeah, you would always have that guy that grinds for them, but I agree that if we were to make it something that you would eventually do anyway and there isn't a reward that effects the gameplay, then it would be something cool to see/have and likely less people would grind.

Another way to look at it is this:

If there is an achievement that is "kill 100 meds as a solly" and if you achieve that you get a new gun that 1hit KO's people...then everyone and their dog is going to try and get that gun. BUT if the reward is a new RPG skin, then people probably aren't going to care if they get it...but will likely be happy when they do get it. OR they will try to get it and will get better in doing so b/c they are playing to do it.

Resistance Fall of Man did this really well IMO...they had medals that you got for stuff that you would have probably normally done eventually like get 100 kills with each unique weapon or get 10 kills in a row w/out dying. And the medals didn't mean shit...except that you could view other people's medal page, and once you got all of them you get a different character model that didn't do shit except look different. But I spent hours playing just to get that suit. And not grinding...I just tended to use my weapons differently and more frequently. And by the time I had my suit...I was dam good at that game with literally every weapon and in every situation there was. AND you could tell the guys who just grinded...b/c they sucked even though they had the suit!

That's what we should have/do...make it so that by getting the achievements you only better your skill in the game. And the guys who grind do nothing for themselves.

[Bridget]

Credge: You said that an achievement where you're expected to jump 1,000,000 times isn't necessarily a bad thing. Then you went on to say "Jumping 1,000,000 times gets people to jump. Jumping is pivotal to bunny hopping in this game." To me, that sounds like having an achievement that says "Spam your weapons toward airborne targets 1,000,000 times" and justifying it by saying "Shooting in the air is pivotal to airshots in this game." I think there are better ways to teach people how to bunnyhop or airshot or even slowly build onto their ability than this.

Anyone can jump. It isn't like you achieve something in ability or something. That's what achievements should do first and foremost. Like I said a page ago, if I can jump once, then why would I want to do it 999,999 more times? Of course, this achievement is passive. It comes eventually, once you hit the one million mark. What did you get out of it? Probably nothing. It just seems like a poor excuse for an achievement.

I want to learn something new with achievements or do something with an aspect of the game I already know that is actually a challenge. Let's say the older achievements taught me how to airshot progressively through tiers. When it comes down to achievements where I don't learn anything new, I would much rather they be something like: "Airshot a Scout moving at 200% movement speed from a concussion grenade jump in mid-air, insta-gibbing him." than: "Switch your gun 10,000,000 times." or "Swim for 45 minutes."

[Dr.Satan]

but who's to say we can't have both of those?

[Gwarsbane]

Originally Posted by Sidd

We have a wiki, that's probably the best place to collaborate on a list of achievements.
http://www.fortress-forever.com/wiki...e=Achievements

Feel free to discuss what makes good and bad achievements here though.

Ya I just added a whole bunch of ideas.

[Bridget]

I guess you could add both. As long as they are not mandatory nor overshadow the learning-based achievements, I am fine if some rare individual finds pleasure in getting an achievement for jumping one-million times. I just don't see the point. Gwars: You added achievements to that list? I don't see any of them.

[Gwarsbane]

I tried to add stuff that you would normally do, but also my suggestion is that you get newer versions of the same ones when you do say 100, 1000, and 10,000 of the items that need to be done.

Level 1 would be basic. If it requires 100 thats what you get when you have done it 100 times.

Level 2 would be Pro. It would require 10 times the basic level and when you get it, it add a Pro behind what ever the title of the achievement is.

Level 3 would be Elite. It would require 10 times the Pro level and when you get it, it replaces the Pro with Elite behind what ever the title of the achievement is.

and if too many people are getting to elite too fast, you can add a 4th level (Godlike) and it would require 100 or 1000 times what it took to get the Elite level making it very hard to get to even when trying to grind for it. It would replace the Elite with either Godlike or my personal favorite "I have no life"


So each achievement would have 3 (or more) levels that they could get which could take people a long time.

Most of the stuff is stuff you would normally do or have done to you in a game or at least based on stuff you would do or have done to you in the game normally.

[Dr.Satan]

yeah Gwar, I'm not seeing any changes to that page from you...just Bridget

also, started up the talk: page so that people can fine tune ideas there first.

[Gwarsbane]

Originally Posted by Bridget

I guess you could add both. As long as they are not mandatory nor overshadow the learning-based achievements, I am fine if some rare individual finds pleasure in getting an achievement for jumping one-million times. I just don't see the point. Gwars: You added achievements to that list? I don't see any of them.

I did, I don't know if I did it right or not. I've only ever edited a wiki once and that was a couple of years ago i think.

I'll drop the list of what I added here just in case I didn't do it right.

| "Helpful Healer"
| Medic
| Heal 100 team mates
| General
|-
| "Even More Helpful Healer"
| Medic
| Kill by infection 100 enemy
| General
|-
| "Infection Eliminator"
| Medic
| Heal 1000 infected team mates
| General
|-
| "Back Stabber"
| Spy
| Back stab 3 or more people within 3 seconds of each other.
| General
|-
| "Back Stabber Pro"
| Spy
| Back stab 3 or more people within 3 seconds of each other 100 times.
| General
|-
| "Back Stabber Elite"
| Spy
| Back stab 3 or more people within 3 seconds of each other 1000 times.
| General
|-
| "Gonna Puke"
| Any class
| Get conced by an enemy 3 or more times in a row while still conced.
| General
|-
| "Gonna Hurrl"
| Any class
| Get conced by an enemy 3 or more times in a row while still conced, 100 times.
| General
|-
| "Gonna Paint A Room"
| Any class
| Get conced by an enemy 3 or more times in a row while still conced, 1000 times.
| General
|-
| "Express Ride To Hell"
| Any class
| Hit the classes top speed 100 times or more (or could do one for each class)
| General
|-
| "Fly Swatter"
| Any Class
| Kill 100 times or more people while they are in the air.
| General
|-
| "Fly"
| Any Class
| Get killed 100 times or more while in the air.
| General
|-
| "Fly on the wind shield"
| Any class
| Get killed 100 times or more while in the air by objects like the window on aardvark.
| General
|-
| "Man vs Machine 1"
| Any class except medic
| Destroy a level 1 SG by stabing, wrenching or crowbaring it, 100 times
| General
|-
| "Man vs Machine 2"
| Any class except medic
| Destroy a level 2 SG by stabing, wrenching or crowbaring it, 100 times
| General
|-
| "Man vs Machine 3"
| Any class except medic
| Destroy a level 3 SG by stabing, wrenching or crowbaring it, 100 times
| General
|-
| "Who wants to live forever"
| Any class
| Get killed within 10 seconds of leaving the spawn
| General
|-
| "I want it all"
| Any class
| Be the only person to cap the flag on your team during the whole game, 50 or more times
| General
|-
| "There can be only one"
| Any class except medic or spy
| Crowbar kill 100 or more people
| General
|-
| "Sucks to be you"
| Any class
| Kill 100 or more people while conced
| General
|-
| "Hungry Shark"
| Any class
| Kill 100 or more people in the water
| General
|-
| "Wrecking ball"
| Demo
| Destroy 100 or more items with detpack (pertains only to walls, generators and stuff like that not buildables
| General
|-
| "Blown away"
| Any class
| Get killed 100 or more times by a demos detpack
| General
|-
| "I spy"
| Sniper
| Kill 100 or more cloaked spies that are not moving
| General
|-
| "You Tramp"
| Scout
| Build 1000 or more jump pads
| General
|-
| "Immortal"
| Any Class
| Do not get killed for at least 10 minutes while active on a map 100 times or more. Must have at least 2 or 3 kills in that 10 minute time.
| General
|-
| "Screamer"
| Any class except pyro
| Scream 100 or more times due to level 3 burns.
| General
|-
| "One to scream for"
| Pyro
| Get 1000 or more level 3 burns that cause screaming
| General
|-
| "Throw the grenade not the pin"
| Any class except Scout
| Get killed 1000 or more times with your own grenade.
| General
|-
| "Mass Murderer"
| Any class
| Get 15 or more kills between your own deaths, 100 or more times
| General
|-
| "Dragon"
| Pyro
| Get 1000 or more kills with flame thrower only
| General
|-
| "Shrimp on the barbie"
| Any class
| Get killed 100 or more times by a pyro with only a flame thrower
| General
|-
| "Shish Kabobed"
| Any class
| Get killed with a backstab while on fire. 100 or more times
| General
|-
| "Survivor"
| Any class
| Survive on the map while moving around for 60 seconds with 10 or less hit points, 100 or more times
| General
|-
| "You MacGyvered it"
| Spy
| Sab 1000 or more SGs and/or dispensers
| General
|-
| "Hair of the dog"
| Any class
| Get killed by the person you killed, 100 times or more
| General
|-
| "I touch myself"
| Any class
| Bump into a spy who has your name 100 or more times
| General
|-
| "Just out of reach"
| Any class
| Die within game feet of a pack that provides health, 100 or more times
| General
|-
| "Snatched from defeat"
| Any class
| Be the last person on the winning team to cap a flag before time on map runs out, 100 or more times.
| General
|-
| "Not enough time"
| Any class
| With with in game feet of the cap point with the flag when time on map runs out, 100 or more times.
| General
|-
| "But your my SG"
| Engi
| Killed by his own SG due to sab, 1000 or more times.
| General
|-
| "Death from above!"
| Any class
| Kill 1000 or more times while off the ground and higher then jumping.
| General
|-
| "Killed from above"
| Any class
| Get killed 100 or more times by someone who is off the ground and higher then jumping.
| General
|-
| "Death becomes you"
| Any class
| Get killed by a spy who also takes your skin as a disguise 100 or more times
| General
|-
| "East Bound and Down Bandit"
| Any class
| Bunny hop from your base to the enemy base nonstop, grab the flag while bunny hopping, bunny hop back to your base and cap the flag all nonstop bunny hoping 20 or more times
| General
|-
| "Invincible"
| Any class
| Kill 4 or more people while you have the enemy flag and still cap that flag. 50 or more times
| General
|-
| "Its my turn to fly"
| Any class
| Spend 5 seconds or more in the air 100 or more times.
| General
|-
| "Sleep walker"
| Any class
| Get tranqed 3 or more times in a row without taking any other damage, 100 times or more.
| General
|-
| "Sandman"
| Spy
| Tranq the same person 3 or more times in a row within 5 to 10 seconds of each one without switching to another weapon. 100 or more times.
| General
|-
| "Hot N Cold"
| Any class except pyro
| Get set on fire, get healed then set on fire again, all with in 5 to 10 seconds, 100 times or more.
| General
|-
| "In the middle"
| Any class except medic
| Get infected then healed then infect and then healed again without taking any other damage all within 10 to 15 seconds, 100 times or more.
| General
|-
| "Ok who farted"
| Any class
| Walk through an enemy spies gas grenade in the enemy base, 100 times or more
| General
|-
| "Friendly Fired"
| Any class
| Get killed by the auto guns from your own spawn 100 times or more
| General
|-
| "Supplies!"
| Any class
| Toss a pack that gets picked up by someone on your team who is near the enemy cap point or friendly flag room, 100 times or more.
| General
|-
| "Helping the Enemy"
| Any class
| Toss a pack that gets picked up by someone on the enemy team, 100 times or more.
| General
|-
| "Sick of you"
| Any class
| Kill the same person on the enemy team in your base 3 or more times in a row without killing anyone else, 100 or more times.
| General
|-
| "Sick of you too"
| Any class
| Get killed by the same person on the enemy team in their base 3 or more times in a row without getting killed by anyone else, 100 times or more.
| General
|-
| "Money Money Money"
| Any class
| Have the most Fortress Points and least 3000 more then the next person on a map as the map time ends. 100 or more times
| General
|-
| "Eye for an Eye"
| Any class
| Kill an enemy of the same class with the same weapon at the same time. 100 times or more.
| General
|-
| "Snatched from defeat"
| Any class
| Grab the flag/ball from near the enemy cap point and take it all the way back to your cap point and cap it without loosing it or dying. 50 times or more
| General
|-
| "Broken wings"
| Any class
| Get slammed to the ground at a high rate of speed (due to explosion or conc or whatever) and die. 100 times or more.
| General
|-
| "Nothing else matters"
| Any class
| Cap the flag 5 or more times in a row without doing any damage to any other player or firing any gun. 100 times or more.
| General
|-
| "Leave you far behind"
| Any class
| Someone grabs the flag from very near you and is 100 or more game feet away from you before you do any damage to them. 100 times or more.
| General
|-
| "Express Yourself"
| Any class
| Put a spray on the enemy flag point, 100 or more times.
| General
|-
| "Bad Touch"
| Medic
| Infect 20 or more people without dying, 100 or more times.
| General
|}

[Bridget]

So, there would be an 'achievement' that, for example, would say "Airshot * enemies as a Soldier using the rocket launcher." Instead of the suggestion being achievable or with a set number (hence the *), the system would just keep track of the number of times you airshot someone as a Soldier using the RL and would give a bronze medal when you hit the 100 mark, a silver medal at 500 maybe, gold at 1,000 or something like that? Just for bragging rights and to see how much you've done?

I added your achievements to the list. I dunno why they didn't go through when you entered them. Nice list, though. A lot of achievements. I'll go read through them. =D

It's a good list so far, but I'd point out that I don't think 'passive' achievements are a good idea. I don't mean this in the same definition as I've used it here. In your achievements, it states to 'get stabbed' or 'get killed'. You can't actively achieve those yourself. I guess they would be like the above suggestion and instead of medals, you'd get something less rewarding like a big ol 'FAIL' icon? Lol

[Gwarsbane]

I think passive achievements where you can't specifically go and do it yourself will help against grind servers just because you would need someone actively helping you.

And I don't think any of the achievements should have a "fail".

They are not meant to make you feel bad about getting stabbed 100 or 1000 or 10000 times, they are meant to say "hey look I've been stabbed 10000 times!!!! Cool!

The people I play with often wonder how many times they have been stabbed or crowbared or what ever in general seeing stuff like that would give them a little smile. I know it would me.


And I think most of the achievements should not be class specific. This way people can get as many achievements as possible.

Though they could have the exact same achievement (for example the shot out of the air) for each class. This way they could have it so that as a soldier you could have the Elite level, while as the engi you only have the basic level and as a scout you have none.

Either way would be fine for me, but combining it for all the classes means less stuff to keep track of which means less server resources being used.



And I do agree that as long as they are not mandatory then there is no harm, and by mandatory I mean you need to do them to get new more powerful weapons or armor. If we are going to have them then I just want to see them as goals I got to not something I have to do to keep up with everyone.

[Bridget]

Why would grind servers even exist in FF? There are no rewards.

[Gwarsbane]

Just because there is no reward other then a picture, there will still be grind servers or grind nights and stuff like that.

Why do people cause problems on servers? There is no reward. They do it simply to make themselves feel better, to cause trouble, or what ever.

People will grind just to get the achievements before anyone else.

They will grind just to be able to say "see how good I am, I have this"

They will grind just to make them selves feel good.