What do you think of the Sentry Gun?

[Elmo]

but I think we're all in agreement that the SG ain't right - hence why stuff is being tested in beta. And I think we all agree that it's not working in beta either... Something has got to change and I think we all agree.

This isn't going to help much.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by Elmo

but I think we're all in agreement that the SG ain't right - hence why stuff is being tested in beta. And I think we all agree that it's not working in beta either... Something has got to change and I think we all agree.

This isn't going to help much.

+1

[chilledsanity]

Elmo: No, I think this is a great thread. You have to look at things from our perspective. We don't know what's going on. In 2.1 the sentry gun was incredibly weak and stayed that way. If you look at the old threads, the majority of people talk about how weak it is, with a few people claiming it's overpowered.

2.2 comes out, no change

2.3 comes out, no change

2.4 comes out, the push is finally increased from 2.1, but it's still weak as hell, a joke compared to 1.x or TFC. In a way this is almost worse, because a change this small made me think anyway, that this is the dev's idea of balance. That the existing sg was so close to perfect, this is all they thought needed to be changed.

2.1 came out in September of 2008. So we're approaching 2 years that it's been weak as hell. We don't know at what point the devs apparently stopped fighting us and now agree it's too weak. Until you made your statement, I assumed that the devs we're still heading down what I consider a delusional route. I'm actually very curious at what point a decision was made that finally made the team say that this change was too weak.

[Elmo]

Makes sense why you believe that. If I didn't know better then I'd be in the same boat as you I think.

It's because we don't believe it only lies in fire power and there's greater mechanic change that needs to take place. Before now I think we've been too afraid of changing such things if we could help it - or maybe we just didn't have the idea *shrugs* I'm guessing.

The idea we were playing with currently was to make it significantly more powerful but ensuring that it WOULD go down after continual battering. If we kept the mechanics as they are but ramp up the overall power the chances are that we get multiple sgs locking down areas and making them impassible and making FF boring.

If we ensure that powerful SGs WILL go down after continual battering then even with multiple SG's there's a positive feeling that you can make a hole and take them out - even if one by one - they will eventually go down.

I'm not the best at explaining things but I had a go.

I could agree a few extra dmg wouldn't have gone a miss in previous pratches but I do feel the general mechanics of the SG need to be played with.

[zE]

Engeneer is one of my favorite classes and tbh isnt underpowered at all, it powns all dudes that dont conc slide properly, and in adition to that engeneer can defend vs any class with his supershotgun and grens. And gets impossible to off in several maps with a lot of sentrys.

[Elmo]

Originally Posted by zE

And gets impossible to off in several maps with a lot of sentrys.

yep, hence not overpowering the SG previously. It's better to be underpowered (although maybe frustrating to the single player) than to overpower the sg lock down maps and piss off multiple people.

^^ tl;dr
at least this way it was 1/9 people rather than 8/9 lol

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Elmo

yep, hence not overpowering the SG previously. It's better to be underpowered (although maybe frustrating to the single player) than to overpower the sg lock down maps and piss off multiple people.

^^ tl;dr
at least this way it was 1/9 people rather than 8/9 lol

Sorry, quick add-on. I've said it before, a defense full of engineers is a DREAM for the spy. There's already a counter to that.

Also piss less people off, yes, make the game more enjoyable, not really. When you cripple the sg, it makes AvD games a JOKE, which leads to the game being almost unwinnable on defense (provided O isn't clueless) and over so fast it's not very fun anymore on offense. While he used to be one of my favorite classes, I typically don't play NG now because he's so difficult now. The changes have made me play O solly much more, but for many maps, that's turned into kind of a steamroller experience.

[Elmo]

fair nuff - I don't have all the answers for you as to why things were done previously. I can guess, but I don't think guessing is a safe option.

I'm one of the devs that stays out of a lot of decisions that don't directly affect my play because I don't feel I have valid contributions. I don't try to tweak classes that I don't know how to play. All in all I put faith in others to make the right decisions. I don't know how it feels to play an engi...

We're not even in disagreement. So yeah, I've got little more to say!

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Elmo

Before now I think we've been too afraid of changing such things if we could help it -

I can believe this, but 2.0 and 2.1 were such massive changes gameplay-wise, I don't understand why the dev team was afraid of completely changing the game afterwards when they had done it already.

Originally Posted by Elmo

or maybe we just didn't have the idea

I can GUARANTEE this wasn't the case. If it was, you guys should just be shot in the head, no offense.

Originally Posted by Elmo

If we ensure that powerful SGs WILL go down after continual battering then even with multiple SG's there's a positive feeling that you can make a hole and take them out - even if one by one - they will eventually go down.

Again, I'm confused by this. Even in 1.0, FF sentries succumbed faster than TFC ones. They offer no splash protection, so if you fire at them continuously, it will usually take out the sg and rockets will shove the engineer back unless he has kung-fu timing. A medic with a supernailgun can often overwhelm an ng's ability to keep it repaired fast enough. An O sniper (this is more for AvD) can take out an sg in one hit. Spies have more abilities than ever for messing sg's up. I'm not sure why you think the current sg's don't topple under fire, that's something the soldier excels in.

One thing I thought TF2 did right, was to have powerful sentries, but have them also slow to go up, like it's an investment. It's also much more satisfying when you take them out, because then, like you said, it punches a hole in defense and creates a window of opportunity and feels like an accomplishment. If that's really what you guys want, why the hell did you decrease the build time so they can be almost immediately after one's been destroyed?

Originally Posted by Elmo

I could agree a few extra dmg wouldn't have gone a miss in previous pratches but I do feel the general mechanics of the SG need to be played with.

It sounds like you weren't the one who nerfed the sg in the first place. Just remember it's the PUSH that's more crucial for sg defense than the DAMAGE. This is what keeps people from capping flags.

Originally Posted by zE

Engeneer is one of my favorite classes and tbh isnt underpowered at all, it powns all dudes that dont conc slide properly, and in adition to that engeneer can defend vs any class with his supershotgun and grens. And gets impossible to off in several maps with a lot of sentrys.

Well you're looking at things from a CTF perspective, where typically the worst thing sentries are dealing with are scouts and medics. I'm looking at this from AvD perspective, where you have demoman flying in with mirvs, soldiers bombarding them with rockets, and even heavies sometimes outgunning them. Out of curiousity, how did you deal with sentries in TFC? Those were MUCH more powerful than FF's and much better balanced for AvD play.