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Old 01-22-2009, 11:01 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixer View Post
the gametype is ctf, and it isnt broken at all ... get the balance right, look what happens on pubs ... soly ruling the midfield like crazy, this is the shit!
The balance is way more balanced than you make it out to be. As much as I love CTF, it's shit in pub after a point. Deal with it. I wish it wasn't the case, but the facts are overwhelming. Now give more constructive criticism or shut the fuck up. I've seen two of your posts, and you're already a jackass. So seriously, stop bashing shit, and suggest ways that you think will make it better, and if there's anything valid in them, we'll test them to see how they work. Got it?
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Old 01-22-2009, 11:03 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by mixer View Post
well, they just dont do it ... it simple as that.
They've chosen the soldier to be ridiculously overpowered as a reaction to the far to fast conc-classes (and because they like to own everyone playing that class) and the rest has to remain 2nd-rate classes ...
Now they are doctering on that mess ... the solution would be easy:
detune conc-classes -> no handheld-concjumps, larger turn-raduis when on high-speed ... then that overpowerd soly wouldnt be needed anymore, so detune him, bring it on line with the other classes and then the whining about the weak sentry would cease as well ...
but no, they want their need-for-speed,as slippery as an eel, gameplay on such exciting (cough) maps like plasma_b1 so they can enjoy their own l33tness over and over again in pickups so they can quickly forget about the mess on the public-servers ...

Join the beta team. Your ideas are fresh and original.
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Old 01-22-2009, 11:19 PM   #23
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... or shut the fuck up.
guess thats the best option, since several patches things a going worse from my pov. So i think its time to move on ... and thanks, i'll take care of the door myself.
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Old 01-22-2009, 11:23 PM   #24
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guess thats the best option, since several patches things a going worse from my pov. So i think its time to move on ... and thanks, i'll take care of the door myself.
Is it really so hard for you to construct your ideas into a helpful format instead of an insulting one?
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Old 01-22-2009, 11:49 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Demasu View Post
Is it really so hard for you to construct your ideas into a helpful format instead of an insulting one?
qft.

Mixer, you would rather not play a game than contribute to the conversations in a constructive manner to achieve a desirable end result? Is that correct?
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Old 01-22-2009, 11:58 PM   #26
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Mixer: I'm sure there's no conspiracy theory where the devs are intentionally trying to favor a particular group, my personal theory is that many of the changes have been largely experimental and by chance have happened to have favored some groups more than others.

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82694] But if you look at FF 1.0 to 2.2 the game is improving the Coders, Mappers, Texture guys and all others who (Donate their time and resources to FF) and work on FF in their spare time deserve a little appreciation instead of ridicule
See I think that's what's causing some of the tension, and in the case of mixer, misguided aggression. Anyone with a brain can appreciate all the time that the developers have poured into this, that's commendable. However comparing 2.2 to 1.0 is a really mixed bag depending on your perspective.

In 1.0 I could play long, close games of dustbowl with a really solid defense. Cornfield wasn't necessarily an insta-win for offense. Flash-forward to 2.2. Offense wins on dustbowl every time, although no one wants to play it now because it's a capfest. Cornfield is over in minutes. There's a few more AvD options, but still slanted towards offense and far more CTF. The sentry gun has so many shortcomings it makes the 1.0 ones good.

I would GLADLY give up all of the improvements 2.2 has brought with it and trade it in for 1.0's gameplay, with all its shortcomings. I hate facing the fact that FF has been gradually turning into a game I no longer want to play. So I appreciate all the work the devs have put in, I just think there have been a series of awful gameplay decisions (for AvD anyway) that have dragged that down.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Damasu
The balance is way more balanced than you make it out to be. As much as I love CTF, it's shit in pub after a point.
Well as an AvD player I can say the balance is completely skewed in AvD, so if you're saying it's shit for pub CTF, and I think it's broken for AvD, how is that considered balanced?

Last edited by chilledsanity; 01-23-2009 at 12:04 AM.
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Old 01-23-2009, 12:01 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixer View Post
the gametype is ctf, and it isnt broken at all ... get the balance right, look what happens on pubs ... soly ruling the midfield like crazy, this is the shit!
I've actually said pretty much the same thing. The gametype(CTF) isn't broken, but the problem is in the players(no, I am not insulting pubbers). The real problem is that you can't change how people play. They are going to play how they are going to play, and there is damned little you can do about it. However, by coming up with a new gametype, which is part CTF, part AvD, and all fun.... is a step in the right direction. Remember, the whole point of playing a game, is to ENJOY it. If you can't enjoy it, then it's not worth playing.

I play in leagues, but I am a pubber at heart. I love CTF, and I enjoy the chaos you find in pubs. However, I also like a team that can play as a TEAM. This doesn't mean you have to recruit everyone and practice at certain times and all that stuff..... but you know what the goals of the map are, you communicate with everyone on your team to achieve the goals(flag captures, cmd points, whatever). Even if not on a full-on effort, calling out when you spot a spy helps.... letting everyone know where the flag is helps...
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Old 01-23-2009, 12:21 AM   #28
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If mixer didn't feel a need to be an asshole this game might be fixed. I like where he's going with his ideas.

Hell, AfterShock said pretty much the same thing (Soldiers were buffed in response to concers and it ruined everything else). It's accurate. He's just a dick that can't provide helpful suggestions.

Is it theme week?
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Old 01-23-2009, 12:27 AM   #29
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Well I'm certainly getting a lot of insights from varying opinions. Since I'm new around here, it sure is interesting reading your thoughts! Although I haven't played nearly enough (about a month) to make any criticism, I'll be sure to leave some helpful suggestions as I play more of this game and learn its nuances.
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Old 01-23-2009, 01:11 AM   #30
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These guys don't know what they're talking about. I can tell you officially that we drink a lot of Steel Reserve and Absolut Vodka and just change some numbers around. Add in five or six new CTF maps, and boom there's your patch!
sounds about right looking at how little 2.2 was =| 3 maps and no balance.

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Old 01-23-2009, 01:13 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by mixer View Post
the gametype is ctf, and it isnt broken at all ... get the balance right, look what happens on pubs ... soly ruling the midfield like crazy, this is the shit!
I've got to be blunt with you. You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

CTF is a broken format for public play. Examine TF2. Public play on all CTF maps are broken just as badly there. They do not work and are not fun. It has absolutely nothing to do with:

The engineer
The soldier
Any of the classes

It has everything to do with:

Pub play being unorganized
CTF requiring organization

That is it. It doesn't matter what kind of balance issues you think exist in the game. If people do not work as a team, any balance suggestion you list will go completely ignored. Got soldiers owning the yard? Do something about it. Grab a sniper. Grab a heavy. Grab a pyro. Conc by them. There are a large number of things you can do about 'op' soldiers.

The fact that there is even a problem in the yard, something that doesn't exist in any other game mode, is enough proof that CTF is a broken game mode. People in pubs play CTF like it's a DM. People in pubs play AVD like it's an AVD. People in pubs play hunted like it's hunted.

The problem is CTF. It's not a pub friendly game mode. This is entirely because one team must split their efforts in two. This is especially problematic when one team doesn't split their efforts in two. You get half of a group on one team being bored while the other half on that team are frustrated that they can't get anything done.

It. Is. Broken.

Quit playing CTF in pubs. It's that simple. Full game CTF in TF games are the most advanced game mode in FPS. Expecting some random people, most of which just want to SHOOT people, to get together and work as a team is a retarded expectation that is simply unrealistic.

Even further, just like any game, some classes don't perform well in some game types/maps. Even games like L4D have certain weapons that are useless on some maps/situations. It even has classes that are redundant on some maps/situations.

When you say "Soldiers rape the yard", you aren't telling us anything. Pyros also rape the yard, as do snipers and heavies. So what? What map do they rape the yard? What classes are they dominating? Who are the people that are dominating you or others?

This is information that can get results.

But I can't express this enough.

CTF is broken for public play.
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Old 01-23-2009, 01:21 AM   #32
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I would GLADLY give up all of the improvements 2.2 has brought with it and trade it in for 1.0's gameplay, with all its shortcomings. I hate facing the fact that FF has been gradually turning into a game I no longer want to play. So I appreciate all the work the devs have put in, I just think there have been a series of awful gameplay decisions (for AvD anyway) that have dragged that down.
I am roughly the same way. Many of the things introduced in 2.0 broke the game on many levels, and, instead of removing them, everything has been bandaged instead.

I feel that 1.11 was the best version, sans the heavy. I would take the heavy of 2.2, the SG of 2.1, and the rest from 1.11. That would perfect the game for me.
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Old 01-23-2009, 05:46 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixer View Post
the gametype is ctf, and it isnt broken at all ... get the balance right, look what happens on pubs ... soly ruling the midfield like crazy, this is the shit!
Its not the solly, it's the player. I bet you if you went midfield solly, the current midfield solly would smack you around.


Because YOU cannot counter a strategy, does not make it a balance issue.

and btw, if you were wondering the class counter to a soldier? Sniper.
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Old 01-23-2009, 08:08 AM   #34
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I'd like to address the "We build FF for X group". Insert leaguers, pubs, pickups, etc. at your leisure.

Initially, in a way this was true. The most important parts of FF at the beginning (from what I could tell) were getting the gameplay as balanced and as fun as possible. While consideration was given to other things we would have liked to do (more gameplay styles, fancy visual stuff, etc.), we just didn't have the staff at the time. (As an aside, we could always use more people on board! If you're interested and have programming, mapping, texturing, etc. skills, PM me!)

That was the sort of "top-down" philosophy. Get the game design and balance right and the game will do alright. Obviously we've come across more than a few problems with this. People don't know how to do shit like bunnyhop and concjump. "Where do I take the flag guys?!" etc.

Since I was brought on board, I've made "bottom-up" my mantra. I'm trying to edge the devs towards implementing features that are beneficial to the community - especially new players. Getting someone to play FF is easy. Getting them to stick around is an altogether different beast.

Thankfully, I don't have to do much work in that particular department. The devs recognized months ago that we need stuff like pub-friendly gameplay types and other stuff that I can't really talk about, and things have been going good in that respect. Slow, but good.

Right now, we have some weak points in our mod. Anyone who's played it for more than a few hours can recognize it. Within the next few years (hopefully months, and not years!), there's going to be a day where FF is completely awesome. Training. Fun new gameplay styles. A thriving, vibrant, and varied community. League with dozens of teams! It can happen, and each and every person with "Fortress Forever Staff" under their names is dedicating a Hell of a lot of their free time so we can reach that goal and celebrate that day.

After that? Well, that's when shit will get really crazy.
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Old 01-23-2009, 03:20 PM   #35
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well said ihmhi... well said
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Old 01-23-2009, 05:04 PM   #36
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Ihmi: I'm not sure that's necessarily the right direction for the game either. Tips will help, but only people who are interested in the first place. New gameplay modes are really a tossup. Honestly I don't understand what's wrong with the fundamentals of AvD for drawing in new players. That's exacty what drew me into TFC. I never would have kept playing it all it was pub CTF with midfield dm'ing.

I've shown friends footage I've recorded from a good dustbowl game before and it turns heads because the action is practically unparalleled in other games. In AvD You don't have to be a great player or understand all the rules to help your team. You just have to move with the crowd and attack the enemy and it benefits everyone. More skilled players can apply actually strategy.

For people I've tried to convert to the game (and unfortunately failed), here are the main complaints I've gotten:
-they don't really like CTF maps (these were pub games)
-they don't like getting sniped as soon as the exit the door
-they think it's hard to heal people as a medic
-they don't understand why people bitch at them for trying to heal people
-they think the sentry gun is too hard to keep up
-they hate getting conc'd (yeah that's part of the game, but 15 seconds does seem a little long)
-they don't like confusing routes (lots of similar corridors, etc.)
-they think the hwguy is too hard to use (this was back in 2.0, the problem should be moot now)

I think at this point there's only so much devs can do. If the newcomer's experience of FF is field dm'ing on shutdown2 or corridor wandering on crossover, I can understand why people aren't sticking with it.
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Old 01-23-2009, 05:48 PM   #37
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Great observations chilled!

The issues with the medic are primarily because they came into the game with an expectation that was contrary to the fortress archetype, which TF2 is the main deviant.

Were they unaware of the medic's special ability?
Were they playing a defensive position as a medic?
Were they running around with the medkit as opposed to any of the other weapons in the medic's superior arensal?

I think the main issue, with the classes you mentioned, is that they are unintuitive, and the classes that seem the most difficult have little tricks that are not apparent at first glance.

Little tricks that newbies often miss which makes the game harder for them:

Medic: Right click to throw medkit
Both the thrown medkit and the melee version heal to full health on the first attack.
You can throw medkits while using another weapon.

Engi:
By charging your railgun, it can deal extra damage, ricochet off walls, and provide explosive knockback.
The railgun generates it's own ammo as long as you hold it out.
The railgun can be overcharged to deliver 40 cells (metal for sgs) to the player.
Dispensers auto gen ammo, but can also be loaded with the wrench.
You can detonate your dispenser via the radial menu; the blast force is calculated based on the number of rockets in the dispenser.

Being conced:

The most important thing to know is that when conced, your aiming is mechanically uneffected, while your vision is. Once you figure out where you are shooting, aiming is completely unchanged.
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Old 01-23-2009, 06:12 PM   #38
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I don't know much about all the gameplay modes yet, but from past experiences in other games, too many gameplay modes would just be unnecessary.

This is due to the fact seen in many shooters where most players prefer certain game modes over others. Some servers even dedicate themselves to specific game modes! You can see this in unreal, quake, halo, dod, natural selection, etc.

With many game modes, it becomes more difficult to tweak things because you have more things to worry about.

I would rather have few game modes that are fleshed out than a million game modes where most people wouldn't even care about.
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Old 01-23-2009, 06:14 PM   #39
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-they don't like getting sniped as soon as the exit the door
This is just one thing I want to comment on because, while I understand the problem, I don't understand it at the same time.

In TF2, respawn times make the sniper a worthy adversary. In FF, the sniper is a mix of annoyance and murder. That is, he will annoy you for a while but, when you kill him, the tides turn. That in itself is not an interesting dynamic HOWEVER...

The respawn times in TF2 make the problem much worse there, but I've never heard anyone complain about the sniper there. This really makes me wonder what kind of people play this game.

Most of the others are very legitimate.
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Old 01-23-2009, 06:43 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Dreadkillz View Post
I don't know much about all the gameplay modes yet, but from past experiences in other games, too many gameplay modes would just be unnecessary.

This is due to the fact seen in many shooters where most players prefer certain game modes over others. Some servers even dedicate themselves to specific game modes! You can see this in unreal, quake, halo, dod, natural selection, etc.

With many game modes, it becomes more difficult to tweak things because you have more things to worry about.

I would rather have few game modes that are fleshed out than a million game modes where most people wouldn't even care about.
If we replaced "game mode" with "map objective", which is a better fit for the new modes anyways (all rules are controlled via a LUA file that adds definitions to the map's object references), would that alleviate the issue?

I know EXACTLY the situation you are talking about, and you are absolutely right, splitting the player base is never good.
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