What happened to the engineer!?

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Why would it be balanced that way knowing that it's easier for spies to sabotage than ever? Sabotages train engineers NOT to leave their guns, it can hurt the whole team.


Well I don't know what splurbp was doing, but I can testify for some maps:

dustbowl: Anywhere near the gates (all 3). These don't have a reputation of staying up for very long anyway, but it's FAST now. It barely even slows down the enemy. Also near cap for cap 2 and 3 (unless its hidden out of the way for 3). They just go down so damn fast. Also I'd like to add that while the ones around cap 1 stay up reasonably well, they don't do their job. Enemies can make decent progress on the flag before dying even with 3+ sg's that wouldn't have been possible before (it would have taken some tactics). It's the lack of push that doesn't deter enemies from straight-lining it.
cornfield: Behind the tow truck near the 3rd cap. In older version of FF I could keep this up for a fair while. Now it goes down very fast. Same deal for the corner next to the wall by the bridge on cap 4.
openfire: pretty much anywhere
congestus: pretty much anywhere
epicenter: On the crates after the main crossover area. An elevated sentry here used to hold its own for a little bit, not much at all now.
aardvark: on top of the 2 catwalks when you come up the ramp, and the raised platform opposite the flag. Enemies basically run up to them and start blasting away rather than getting pushed back.
anticitizen: I don't have much comparison since this came out in 2.1, but about the only effective area is at the end of cap 2 since everyone is drained by that point anyway. They go down fast for Caps 1 and 3 (3 because of the range) and again, for Cap 1, they don't do their job of stopping the enemy from capping.

I think for a few of those maps, especially the AvD ones like dustbow, the SG's ineffectiveness is due to map design, not completely but a huge portion.

Like the gates on RND2 for example. The bunker that we all used to know and love in TFC dustbowl was awesome. It was wide, long, and narrow enough that you had to be ducking to walk out of it. In FF, it's a small man window, not wide enough to see the extreme right very well, and there's a freaking shutter on the left side, so it won't track enemys to the left once they walk out and step to the side. The window is big enough that it's very easy to shoot rockets and lob nades in. Back in TFC it actually took a good amount of skill to be able to shoot a rocket and hit it directly, or for any class (other than a spy) to get a nade in there from the pit. Now pretty much any class can easily take it out, in TFC it was mainly spy's and sollies that took them out (and even snipers to a lesser degree), everyone else on O breaking out of that entrace was there for cannon fodder or to DM the front line heavy classes.

As for the cap point on command point 2, my god the capping yard is soo freaking small and the building is too high. It's soo incredibley easy for anyone to run that flag in since there's very little time for the sg to even track (even if the sg's tracking speed was increased). Defense's only hope for that cap is that they some how manage to kill the flag carrier and push it to the far wall since that's the only spot the sg is effective in killing. Anyone doing a jump in, and I mean anyone (back in TFC is took skill to jump the flag and not anyone could just do it, but in FF ANYONE can do it), will pretty much cap that flag. Spy's not being shot at while cloaked pretty much broke this map too. Soo what if you can hear the sonar? By the time you find the spy he's probably pushed the final couple feet to cap.

Rnd3 gates, is pretty much the same problem as RND2's. In TFC the bunker for the SG's were wide but narrow, and protected behind walls. In FF if you don't build your sg outside the bunker, it'll never shoot anything from inside it. Any nade even chucked on the ground infront of the SG will do damage to it. There's only 1 pack that respawns waaay too slowly to even hope to keep it up.

The whole spacial design of the map just seems off. The SG's need an open area hidden around a final bend. On cap 1, the corner with the resup pack was incredibley hard to kill the sg. Now any class can walk around that corner and lob a nade or two up, the corner is too small. By the time the sg notices the enemy the nades are already chucked. In TFC an O would have to turn the corner and actually run forward a bit, usually getting pinned back by the sg. Any other SG up around cap point 1, pretty much can be targeted from across the yard, so there's really no "bend" protecting them from direct LoS.

Also for dustbowl the timer on the nade pack is seriously devestating to defense. Sure defense get all those nades at the beginning, but they never hold the yard long anyways. But once O breaks through, almost every offensive person can have nades when running to the next yard. In TFC the nade timer was long enough people on O faught over them, they stood in line even to get them, which thinned out O's push for the next yard. But in FF man I never worry about someone grabbing the nade pack because I only have to wait a couple seconds to get my nades. Which like I said is devestating to D. How can they stop O when every demo, every HW, every solly can(and usually does) have full 2ndary nades. The scouts and medics get their concs, and the spys get their gas. The defense does not get to utilize the power of those nade packs like O does since D doesn't get access to them as long as O does.

Everything I mentioned for dustbowl (except the nade packs) I've noticed in almost every other AvD map I've played. Including Anticitizen, like cap point 1's. It's almost exactly the same problem as dustbowl's cp2. There isn't enough time for a "protected" sg to target an offensive jumper rounding that final corner. That building is too close to the cap, and offers more protection to the O for jumping, than it does for the D's LoS advantages. My strat for that round, I go scout, if I get the flag I'll get concs, and right after the last bridge before the last bend for the cap, I'll conc, and I'll try to do it straight over the building. If I don't make the cap (and I usually do quite often since the sg's rarely have enough time to kill me, even though there's 4 of them), I can still use the scout class and keep pushing it... now tell me why on earth should a scout be able to continue to keep pushing the flag through 4 sg's to cap? The only time I switch to spy is if the D get wise and start piping the shit out of it or like 3 dispensers go up infront of it to stop me from skimming through.

As for congestus, that map is completely broken. My god class balances aside, the map IS DESIGNED to give offense, full concs and when I say full concs, I mean 3 as they leave the base since any O concer that knows what they're doing knows how to prime a conc, grab the pack and still make it out of the base in time. So offense has 3 full concs (both scouts and meds) when entering the enemy base, and defense... well defense gets their initial nades and well that's it. So offense is continuously getting to the enemy base with no consumption of resources, while defense is continously getting weaker and weaker... okay well maybe you'd say "Well that's how defense should work anyways, O should wear them out to eventually make the cap"... fair enough, but it doesn't really apply when I can literally get to the enemy flag in 6 beeps. Prime first conc before leaving respawn, conc off battlements, immediately prime 2nd while in air, and I can choose 3 entry points at my leisure. If I know a heavier class was in a certain location last run I'll avoid it next run, and deciding where to go barely slows me down. For defense, you don't want to suicide since you seem to spawn in the lower respawn far more often than not. And it's a good trek to get back to any decent position. So you're sitting by the flag at 40% life and armor with no nades knowing there's nothing you can do, because if you die, there's a very good chance you won't get back in time to stop the next O, and if you stand around, a scout with his nail gun can easily take you out.

As for openfire, I agree with ya, there's absolutely no effective position for the sg. The only time it's actually good is if the flag lands in the pit and even then not that good.

I guess to summerize, my feelings about the SG's on AvD maps is that the way the maps are designed with either too many direct LoS to effective D positions for O to take down an sg, or there are too many obstacles (like corners and ledges), where O can get extremely close to an sg without being hit so they can strike with the flag and cap before the SG has time to kill, or they can unload their arsenal and kill the SG.

Some of this (for me anyways) also applys to CTF maps as well. There was a post with a video depicting the "effectiveness" of the sg in a pickup match, but unfortunately they picked SD2, one of the very few maps where the design and layout actually provides a strong SG position. If they had made the video on say... phantom you would see a completely different story on the SG in a pickup. And there are far more maps out there that lean towards a phantom scenario than there are SD2 scenarios.

To me the perfect SG is one designed for area denial. I would rather see an sg that stayed up longer, did less damage, but tracked much faster, and had more push. This SG I just described wouldn't nescessarily kill offensive scouts and medics better, but deny them access from the room they're covering.

Okay sure when an SG goes down it can be rebuilt quickly. Problem is for the medic class, any decent medic can take the SG down without making it a suicide run. So the medic fly's in, takes out the SG without a 2nd thought and then carries on. You don't have to make the SG an unstoppable killing machine you just have to make it so a medic, or scout have to think about how to approach the SG. I would much rather go up against an SG where I know it's gonna kill me instantly if it gets a lock, but knowing I can pretty much get to the SG anytime I want to take it down before it takes me down. Than go up against an SG that won't kill me right away but will deny me access to getting to it, or getting through the room it's covering.

If a medic or scout can't deal with an SG placement because it's denying them access, that's when the heavier classes come in, one that has the capability of taking it down easier. But as it stands right now (atleast in my eyes), unless there's 4+ sg's up a couple medics could pretty much deal with the sg's without heavier classes, and the only reason the heavier classes are being used now is that another person (a beginner) might not have the skill required to do what an experienced medic can do. But since FF's community is soo small, there's almost guaranteed to be a couple experienced players playing, and those guys might choose a heavier class based completely out of wanting variety, not based on the fact he can't do it with med.

Again unless there's like 4 sg's up around the base. That can be problematic for a couple meds, and does require a heavier class. But you know why it requires a hevier class? Because there's usually only a couple of O runners anyways. 2-3 O going up against, 4 Sg's, 2 sollys, a demo, and whatever else that totals up a regular defensive line up of 8-9 people. 3 vs 9, of course heavier classes are required just to cause chaos and blow shit up. But you know what? If the teams were devided evenly...say like for a 22 man server, out of 11 players on each side, 5 are O, and 6 are D. I could guarantee you meds and scouts is all you'd need on a pub.

Hell even in 4v4 pickups, I've played several games where the entire offensive lineup is 4 meds. Sure we could have a scout to run the flag faster, or we could have a demo to spam more shit, but honestly 4 straight meds has proved to be very effective on most maps, and honestly we just change classes to either maximize effectivness (why need 4 meds when 3 is working and youc an have a scout to cap even faster?), or simply for variety, to keep things interesting instead of the same ol strats each time.

[Credge]

Originally Posted by Hammock

Hell even in 4v4 pickups, I've played several games where the entire offensive lineup is 4 meds. Sure we could have a scout to run the flag faster, or we could have a demo to spam more shit, but honestly 4 straight meds has proved to be very effective on most maps, and honestly we just change classes to either maximize effectivness (why need 4 meds when 3 is working and youc an have a scout to cap even faster?), or simply for variety, to keep things interesting instead of the same ol strats each time.

I would like to comment on this because I've seen nothing but the same thing. Depending on the map, you might go four scouts for an early rush... but after that you rarely ever see scouts unless the map allows for a scout. Mainly you see 3 medics and a scout, 4 medics, or 2 medics, a scout, and a demoman. The only reason the scout exists is to give the demoman a 'conc'.

The only time more than one scout gets used is either when it's a map like congestus or the defense just isn't very good. Usually the existence of a sentry gun (read: all the time) means they'll go heavier O. Always.

I did an experiment on Siden. I think Mushy was playing with me. I started the map as a scout to prevent the O's first scout rush. I continued to play engineer until they switched to heavier O. In this case, medics. They ran two. I then switched to soldier until they went back to scout. The point of the experiment was to see how other players reacted to threats, and it was always soldier=lighter classes, engineer=heavier classes. It was a 3v, but 4v always yields the same results.

I don't like it very much. Very predictable games without much strategy involved.

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by Credge

I would like to comment on this because I've seen nothing but the same thing. Depending on the map, you might go four scouts for an early rush... but after that you rarely ever see scouts unless the map allows for a scout. Mainly you see 3 medics and a scout, 4 medics, or 2 medics, a scout, and a demoman. The only reason the scout exists is to give the demoman a 'conc'.

The only time more than one scout gets used is either when it's a map like congestus or the defense just isn't very good. Usually the existence of a sentry gun (read: all the time) means they'll go heavier O. Always.

I did an experiment on Siden. I think Mushy was playing with me. I started the map as a scout to prevent the O's first scout rush. I continued to play engineer until they switched to heavier O. In this case, medics. They ran two. I then switched to soldier until they went back to scout. The point of the experiment was to see how other players reacted to threats, and it was always soldier=lighter classes, engineer=heavier classes. It was a 3v, but 4v always yields the same results.

I don't like it very much. Very predictable games without much strategy involved.

I agree with this post completely. Rereading my post I guess you can also make the conclusion that I believe the medic is too strong at taking out SG's. Don't get me wrong I love the medic class, I play it a lot, but in all my experience playing it I've noticed there's rarely any need for me to switch to a slower heavier class to accomplish the feat of taking down the SG. Which goes back to my SNG posts I've made. There should be a clear heirarchy of classes to take down the SG. If you can't get the flag with the scout, then go medic, if you can't take the SG down with the medic, go soldier, and if he doesn't work, go demo (I leave spy out cause he has a completely different method of doing his job, and I'm just talking about straight head on conflict). But as it stands right now, the medic is pretty much on the same level as the solly is. In some cases better because he can make multiple runs at the SG before the solly makes a single run. So failing at taking the SG down with a medic isn't as crippling as a failed solly run.

There should be more distinction between the use of a medic to take an sg down and the use of a solly/demo. And there really isn't.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Credge

That's kind of my issue with the TFC SG and it's something still present in league play FF. +attack on your gun with your wrench out is just as skill-less as not using any tactics, mainly because you aren't.

Well back in TFC there was skill involved with knowing when to repair it and when to bail (judging from the amount of force being thrown at you). The current sg has completely destroyed that aspect, it's almost always better to run and cut your losses. There's still skill involved with using dispensers to block off access points and staying alert against spies, but I agree it doesn't take as much as something like a scout or sniper. It's nice having a class that is easier for beginners to pick up and is friendly for laggers. Pushing a DM focus I think would reduce that. I don't really see a problem with having some classes have a lower ceiling than others. I'd say hwguy doesn't have a tremendous amount of skill either, you mainly just aim at your target.

Also I agree with you completely on the aiming aspect. It's almost irrelevant in FF, whereas it was huge in TFC (which is ironic since FF has a far better aiming mechanism). I'd love to see a gun that has a greater advantage of being aimed in the right place rather than have it a 180 from the target and be practically the same. This might be part of the reason why I have better memories of the TFC sg, I took pains to aim my gun exactly where I wanted it.

Hammock: You mirrored a lot of my own thoughts, I really liked your analysis of dustbowl especially, it's spot on. I'm not a very good medic, so I can't judge, but I'm an okay soldier (an OKAY one, there are plenty of better ones) and I CLEAN HOUSE against sg's with him now. So if the medic is even more effective than he is that's just nuts.

[Peon]

Originally Posted by Hammock

As for congestus, that map is completely broken. My god class balances aside, the map IS DESIGNED to give offense, full concs and when I say full concs, I mean 3 as they leave the base since any O concer that knows what they're doing knows how to prime a conc, grab the pack and still make it out of the base in time. So offense has 3 full concs (both scouts and meds) when entering the enemy base, and defense... well defense gets their initial nades and well that's it. So offense is continuously getting to the enemy base with no consumption of resources, while defense is continously getting weaker and weaker... okay well maybe you'd say "Well that's how defense should work anyways, O should wear them out to eventually make the cap"... fair enough, but it doesn't really apply when I can literally get to the enemy flag in 6 beeps. Prime first conc before leaving respawn, conc off battlements, immediately prime 2nd while in air, and I can choose 3 entry points at my leisure. If I know a heavier class was in a certain location last run I'll avoid it next run, and deciding where to go barely slows me down. For defense, you don't want to suicide since you seem to spawn in the lower respawn far more often than not. And it's a good trek to get back to any decent position. So you're sitting by the flag at 40% life and armor with no nades knowing there's nothing you can do, because if you die, there's a very good chance you won't get back in time to stop the next O, and if you stand around, a scout with his nail gun can easily take you out.

I'm really sorry about this....but I really do have to defend a map that I really like. It really, again, comes down to a matter of personal preference I guess. It's a different map with different properties. And what praytell are those properties again? Ahem....well...here is what Congestus is all about:

The offense will score repeatedly.....there is no way to stop scoring totally....do your best to slow the enemy offense down....the defense that does the best job of slowing down the enemy offense (wait for it) WINS!

The same could be said for virtually any map of course, but here it's truly up to whether or not you enjoy a non-stop-cap-fest map. I like it because it's different and fast, and there's not too many (maybe none) like it. I've played D on it before....it was rough....I'm not sure if we won....but those were the rules of the map and I had fun trying.

I could even go so far as to say that it's one of the most teamwork intensive maps out there, where you absolutely have to have a dedicated and cohesive defense to play it well. I could even say that it's the map with the fewest deathmatch properties to it, due to the quarters being so close between teams. There is simply no room for deathmatch in Congestus....it's all about the capping, or the prevention of.

As for the true topic of discussion of this thread, I have something to add on SG strentgh. One of the main gripes I am seeing here is that folks feel that they should not have to babysit their SG...this is never true. So, on this subject I say:

Attention all Engys! You and your Sentry Gun are a tandem team. Your gun is a literal extention of you! You are worthless without it, and it is worthless without you. There is no place that you can build it where it will be untouchable...the enemy will ALWAYS have an angle of attack on your SG. It is up to you to anticipate and prevent these attacks. You should also enlist defensive members of your team into blocking these attack avenues.....it's in their best interest to keep your SG alive. Your SG is your friend...help it live, and it will help you live. Uhhhh....and if it dies......build a new one I guess.

And just so you know, I really had to fight the urge to insert that mantra from "Full Metal Jacket" in here, and replace rifle with SG. Feel free to do it in your heads or over voicecomm ingame though.

And if it's any consolation on the Engy subject, I pretty much never see an Engy getting their ass kicked.....just sayin'.

[Ventry]

I add my vote that SG's are too weak in 2.1.
They need improving.

Cheers
Leo

[cfive]

ditto

[Ronzui]

Its good to see a lot of peeps get on board with this, being the Ng got nerfed, aside from the EMP hes basically playing in his underwear, having minimal armor, before an Ngs builds are up hes just a weak player on D, after builds though he becomes a target, most players take great delight in taking down the SG, justifiably so in 2.0, now it doesnt take much skill to take one out. I wonder how players actually capped in clan mathches before 2.1, maybe its called something like skillz and teamwork? Something they say we pubbers dont have...

[Credge]

Originally Posted by Ronzui

Its good to see a lot of peeps get on board with this, being the Ng got nerfed, aside from the EMP hes basically playing in his underwear, having minimal armor, before an Ngs builds are up hes just a weak player on D, after builds though he becomes a target, most players take great delight in taking down the SG, justifiably so in 2.0, now it doesnt take much skill to take one out. I wonder how players actually capped in clan mathches before 2.1, maybe its called something like skillz and teamwork? Something they say we pubbers dont have...

People capped in 2.0 because teamwork is minimally existent in pub play. Skill has little to do with placing a gun. Anybody can do that. The difference between the 2.0 and 2.1 SG is, primarily, the push values that made any sort of encounter with an SG one sided. You get shot at? You die. You don't get shot at? You live.

That's poor, and it was changed. The reason? Because competitive play was not fun. It's as simple as that. Place a gun in the flag room and the flag did not move.

You still see that now. The difference? You can actually approach and take the gun out! The problem this caused? Pub SG's go down without issue because >team work< does not exist. If it did, your gun would survive. Simple as that. Just watch any pickup and you'll see exactly how long SG's last and how effective they are.

Just watch my video in the other thread.

You'll notice that none of this was an issue in TFC. SG's in both pub and league play were fine. In FF they are not. Looking at the differences explains where the problem is and also suggests a fix. The question is ~ do we want to have the same SG?

[Ronzui]

yes i would like to see the same sg, could you tell me the exact technical differences between the tfc gun and 2.0...im curious

[Credge]

Originally Posted by Ronzui

yes i would like to see the same sg, could you tell me the exact technical differences between the tfc gun and 2.0...im curious

I can't give you the exact numbers as I don't know them, but I'll list the differences between the 2.0 SG, 2.1 SG, and the TFC SG.

TFC:

Slow turn speed

45 and 180 aiming increments

Nearly instant lock time, starts firing quickly

Does less damage per shot, but fires faster

Lock range was limited (about the size of the monkey flag room)

FF 2.0:

Same turn speed as is present in 2.1 (insanely fast compared to TFC)

Aiming increment does not exist, point and aim instead

Slightly slower lock time, starts firing after a delay

Does more damage per shot, fires slightly slower

Lock range is about the same size as TFC

Push values could shoot you through the world without issue

Continued to fire regardless of range. An example would be shooting you from one side of the aardvark yard to the other if you had infinite health. It literally did not stop firing at you.

FF 2.1:

Slightly less health than the 2.0 SG. Unsure on the difference between TFC and FF's gun in regards to health.

Same aiming, lock, and turn speeds for the most part (if any changes exist, it was minor).

Similar damage.

Push values much lower.

No longer fires at you at any range once locked on.

Those are the biggest things.

[chilledsanity]

Actually a couple more important differences:

TFC:

-sentry guns provided protection against damage and knockback (they would soak it up and it wouldn't get passed on to the engineers)

-if a sentry locked on to you, it STAYED locked for a duration, meaning you couldn't keep popping your head out from around the corner more than once, it would slaughter you

-had decent push (I don't remember how much, but it was enough to keep you from running straight up to it)

[mixer]

how about this:
only explosives can destroy the gun, bullets can 'disable' it (maybe faster then they destroy it now) and the engi can quickly repair it and doesnt need rebuilt it?

[chilledsanity]

In my opinion that wouldn't solve much. Sg's die mostly to explosives anyway, and if shooting it once with a shotgun disabled it for a time, that would make it practically useless for defense.

[mixer]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

In my opinion that wouldn't solve much. Sg's die mostly to explosives anyway, and if shooting it once with a shotgun disabled it for a time, that would make it practically useless for defense.

not once .... it'd be a matter of trying for you beta-testers ...

[Xion350]

Be aggressive! You see that guy popping in and out taking pot shots at your SG? Throw an emp and run up to him, super shotting him! If it's a HWG or a Demo tossing a Mirv your way, let him win and run. You can fight back and build another one later anyway. Also remember it only takes one whack of the wrench to repair/rearm it. Learn to quick-swap weapons so you can quickly repair it, then go and shoot it's attacker.

Sentries SHOULDN'T be super powerful IMO. In TF2, you need an extremely well coordinated team to take out ONE, let alone a few of them.

[mervaka]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

-if a sentry locked on to you, it STAYED locked for a duration, meaning you couldn't keep popping your head out from around the corner more than once, it would slaughter you

needs fixing imo.

[CatzEyes93]

How about copy / paste of the code and mechanics from TFC and keep that in game for a while to see how the pubs like it and what they dont like. Tweak it from there but the more you guys are 'fixing' it, the worse it is getting.

Just mho.

[RocKwell]

Originally Posted by CatzEyes93

How about copy / paste of the code and mechanics from TFC and keep that in game

[Credge]

Part of the problem with that, despite it being a very simple solution, is that FF is much faster. Despite the TFC SG being good, it wouldn't be good with the speeds we see now. Yeah, some tweaking is needed, but that's the kind of stuff that has put the SG in its current spot.

The only thing that we can take from TFC that will work with the SG in this is the lock mechanic. Everything else, from turret turn speed to rate of fire, to damage done, has got to be changed. The reason is the speed of the game.