Do we need overpressure?

[Fruitcake]

I played a lot of pickups the past year, and as most of you know I played most of them as heavy weapons guy. I am not out to clobber the class, but I think over-pressure, OP, gives HWG an advantage he doesn't need.

If you look at pickup statistics, http://parser.ffpickup.com/v2/record/most_kills_defense ,4/5 top kill records on defense are HWG. HWG is by no means weak class. The class has the most direct and easy form of dps, point and shoot. Top HWG's are top because they mow scouts down every run, not because they consistently OP. OP is superfluous to being a good HWG. OP allows a HWG to be less strict with his positioning at choke points, and get away with sloppy play. I believe the design of OP was to help stop the flow of offense in a meta when the game was much higher cap than it is now. With the changes to bhop speed and cap, as well as jump pad automated runs, I don't think is necessary anymore.

Another reason to remove OP is because of the damage it does to spys. OP is at a cooldown such that it can't stop scouts every run, or even medics on some maps, but it can always catch a spy. I know some people aren't a fan of spy and are happy he isn't in the meta, but he is unfairly castrated by this.
1. The HWG can counter spy every single run with OP.
2. OP creates a gap between the HWG and the spy at no cost to the HWG. A soldier shooting his feet with a rocket takes damage, a HWG does not.
3. HWG is already the best spy detection, if the spy is invisible, the HWG loses nothing by sweeping the area with his gun.
4. The most effective gap closer the spy has to close the gap with HWG is a frag jump, which is currently double countered between OP and HWG's damage output.

None of this even touches on the fact that the physics for OP can be buggy, sometimes launching people away at huge speed or pulling them backwards.

TL;DR
Over-pressure is from a past meta, it's unnecessary.
It allows sloppy play.
It unfairly nerfs spy.
It's buggy.

[Fat-Suzy]

completely disagree. dont nerf heavy!
overpressure is fun; if you take all the fun out of the game to balance it better with pickup style play it will be less attractive to newcomers and i think we are already struggling enough in that respect.

I do agree with you on some things tho... op is probably too much of an advantage in pickups.
I think it should be implemented as a serverside option so it can be disabled for competition.

[FDA_Approved]

Originally Posted by Fruitcake

Another reason to remove OP is because of the damage it does to spys.

Rofl.

I know some people aren't a fan of spy and are happy he isn't in the meta

You are exactly right there, I think spy is a bullshit broken class, heavily leaning a crutch made up of gimmicks. Being able to walk up to and toss grenades at a sentry, one hit kills, etc. Regardless of how hard any of it is to pull off, it's still a bullshit gimick. It also completely flies in the face of what I actually play FF for, the fast paced acrobatic nature of it all.

With the changes to bhop speed and cap, as well as jump pad automated runs, I don't think is necessary anymore.

This is kind of a good point. OP cool down used to be so low, I spent an entire pickup getting OP'd by trailer every run. I smashed my keyboard against my desk till the little legs broke off and it had to stay flat on my desk from then on. After that OP cool down nerf, cap rate picked up significantly, and defense seemed to constantly be a chaotic unmanageable mess. (rocket blast radius was also nerfed at the same time, but I don't tend to think that's as consequential)

But I see a few things wrong with your point. Currently the cap rate is pretty comfortable. But that's not just because of the O nerfs, OP is still playing a part in that. There are plenty of runs where an OP keeps me out of the flag room on a good conc that'd have me right on top of the gun.

Also I'm not entirely comfortable with all the O changes. The jpad nerf is bittersweet to me, I think it should be removed entirely. The silly and asinine uses found for it in the current meta kind of grind my gears. But I'm still pretty iffy about the bhop changes.

Another thing to consider is that either a few individuals are cheating at the class or it is very broken. There is some nonsensical factor that changes the AC from just doing damage to becoming a power house of stopping potential. Even if that just comes down to great aim (I'm not entirely convinced it is about aim, even some of the best aimers in the community can be pretty hit or miss with the stopping power) even if it is about aim we need to consider if that's how the class was meant to/should work. I don't believe it was "meant" to work that way.

overpressure is fun

See above where I broke my keyboard. OP may be fun for the user, but it is more frustrating on the receiving end than any other stopping mechanic is.

I think it should be implemented as a serverside option so it can be disabled for competition.

Interesting thought. I have pitched for a "sv_competitive" setting before. With such an svar we could do things like entirely remove jpads from pugs and comp matches. At the same time we could revert the jpad nerf for pubs, seeing as how jpads undeniably add to the ease of access and fun factor for new players in pubs. Games where people are playing heavier O classes (those happy, naive, fools). There are probly plenty of small variables that could go towards a better quality of life for both halves of the community.

[Fruitcake]

I would agree with you FDA that as fun as it may be to overpressure someone, it is far more annoying to be overpressured. Also I am tentatively against splitting pub and competitive play. I believe TALOS or O-T used to use different secondary grenades, keeping the nail grenade for soldier, spy gas and HWG mirv. It was very confusing for new players going from server to server and seeing different "settings". Even if we made these settings specifically for pickup servers, that just raises another barrier to entry for pickups.

As to your comment about overpressures being a useful tool for stopping otherwise successful concs, I feel that overpressure sometimes creates impassable choke points, where there is no possibility for counter-play. Some chokes are so closed that the HWG can not miss overpressures. A soldier playing those chokes would quickly kill himself on rocket splash.

My only regret in taking away overpressure would be removing the HWG's one flashy play. The only thing flashy a HWG can do is overpressure someone. Nice grenades, good tracking, good positioning will not get you in an AVI.

[FDA_Approved]

Originally Posted by Fruitcake

It was very confusing for new players going from server to server and seeing different "settings".

My general thinking is that anyone going into pugs and willing to accept the class restrictions and other form of structure would be able to at least learn and understand any other variances. Even still we get people like mohawk moe and alextric who want to come in and play offensive HW.

But yeah, reducing the confusion would kind of hinge on the svar being only used in pug servers. People can go into "pseudo comp" pubs and be informed of the differences. But that doesn't really help when people join into multiple empty servers that are different, which is a very likely possibility and, I agree, confusing experience.

where there is no possibility for counter-play.

And that is ultimately why I find OP so frustrating on the receiving end. Getting popped up by explosives there are still times where you have a chance to react, air strafe or what ever. Explosive based stops are also much more fluid than the abrupt OP. OP is just infinitely less interactive than other forms of stopping power in the game.

[homie in reboks']

Originally Posted by Fruitcake

that just raises another barrier to entry for pickups.

Lets be real, the biggest barrier to getting into pickups is suffering through the toxic shitbird pickup community more than any gameplay issue.

Anyway, you both bring up good points and whatever devs are still involved should definitely consider this discussion for future updates.

[squeek.]

where there is no possibility for counter-play.

Originally Posted by FDA_Approved

And that is ultimately why I find OP so frustrating on the receiving end. Getting popped up by explosives there are still times where you have a chance to react, air strafe or what ever. Explosive based stops are also much more fluid than the abrupt OP. OP is just infinitely less interactive than other forms of stopping power in the game.

In the beta, we actually implemented OP and the never-quite-completed scout movement weapon at around the same time, which served as a decent complement. Scouts could potentially counteract being hit with an OP by using their movement weapon right afterwards.

I don't really have a point with this, just thought it could add some context--almost all beta testing with the OP was done with the jump gun as a semi-counter. We also intended to release them at the same time, but that never happened.

whatever devs are still involved

This is the main sticking point for any change, though. I'm not sure there are any.

[homie in reboks']

Originally Posted by squeek.

This is the main sticking point for any change, though. I'm not sure there are any.

Damn, somebody page TrepidJon real quick. #TrepidBlessed

[traxamillion]

Originally Posted by homie in reboks'

Lets be real, the biggest barrier to getting into pickups is suffering through the toxic shitbird pickup community more than any gameplay issue.

Nice example of the *pot* calling the kettle black.

[homie in reboks']

Originally Posted by traxamillion

Nice example of the *pot* calling the kettle black.

Agreed

[XPelargos]

Originally Posted by traxamillion

Nice example of the *pot* calling the kettle black.

Hey, I've cut down on my weed smoking significantly!

WOuld really like to see the scout zoom gun and spy grapple hook implemented. As FDA said, I play FF for the acrobatic movement aspect, and giving classes more options to be acrobatic is a good thing.

[Drakonal]

Originally Posted by FDA_Approved

Rofl.



You are exactly right there, I think spy is a bullshit broken class, heavily leaning a crutch made up of gimmicks. Being able to walk up to and toss grenades at a sentry, one hit kills, etc. Regardless of how hard any of it is to pull off, it's still a bullshit gimick. It also completely flies in the face of what I actually play FF for, the fast paced acrobatic nature of it all.

Lol if i woulda known you felt this way about Spy i woulda never wasted time cliping demos for you. sheesh.

[FDA_Approved]

Originally Posted by Drakonal

Lol if i woulda known you felt this way about Spy i woulda never wasted time cliping demos for you. sheesh.

Hey it doesn't mean the spy can't perform objectively cool looking acts. That's what I make avis for. I just want to show cool shit happening. Don't fret over your submitted spy clips just yet.

Still everything I said oozes of truth and wisdom, my opinions of spy are wrought of gold and sit on an ivory tower of well respected opinions.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by XPelargos

Hey, I've cut down on my weed smoking significantly!

WOuld really like to see the scout zoom gun and spy grapple hook implemented. As FDA said, I play FF for the acrobatic movement aspect, and giving classes more options to be acrobatic is a good thing.

Being honest, I think the Spy brings a balance to the "acrobatic" stuff the lighter classes do. It is the Yang to the light classes Yin.

Cloak was implemented due to engine limitations. Spy sabotage of the SG was an additional element to assist other O players. We found it a bit over-powered, so the SG was given a "cloak detection" circuit(ping).

I think some players have jumped toward the "uber fast paced" side of the game, while ignoring the subtle "strategy" part of it.

Bunch of Scouts and Medics run in, occupy the attention of the D. Spy should then have the ability to "sneak in" while everyone is distracted with the light classes. Spy then sets up something to help disrupt the D and allow the light classes to get the flag and run. It's a shame that we rarely ever see this happen.

[FDA_Approved]

No, spy is a BS cheap gimmick.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by FDA_Approved

No, spy is a BS cheap gimmick.

That's your opinion, and that's fine. I just happen to disagree with it.

[Fruitcake]

Well, it's been over a month since jump gun was introduced and we've had plenty of time to test it out in pickups. There are definitely some cool routes/jukes opened up by jumpgun.

However I'm afraid jumpgun has opened up way too many cans of worms to be worth it.

It increases the difficulty of airshots; airstrafing and concs already make airshots hard, but jumpgun gives scouts instantaneous airjuking. Handhold conc+jumpgun indoors is insanely strong combined with decent jukes, to the point where I feel bad for demomen.

By making movement so easy it reduces the importance your other movement. Take for example ff_destroy battlements; prior to jumpgun you could strafe jump from capture points to battlement entrance or back. Trimping/double-jumping also becomes far less important when you can press a button to do it automatically.

Although it was billed as an answer to HWG's overpressure I find demos to be most affected by jumpgun. I have escaped so many pipetraps that I dead to rights should have died from because jumpgun pushed me above and out of range of pipes. It makes a huge difference in engagements with every defense class. So while the whole overpressure into jumpgun counter is kind of a neat dynamic, I think it messes with the balance of all classes way too much.

I'd rather scrap overpressure and jumpgun, as I feel the game would be more stable balance wise. Also with the upcoming rework of pyro, I feel the other classes being stable is important. I'm actually interested and looking forward to pyro changes, and don't have anything against making more classes viable, PROVIDING they fit within the preexisting framework of game play.

[FDA_Approved]

Originally Posted by Fruitcake

Well, it's been over a month since jump gun was introduced and we've had plenty of time to test it out in pickups.

I disagree. We don't really run that many pugs, I don't think that many people playing pugs use the Jgun that often, and let's be honest, we've been scrapping the bottom of the barrel to fill for a while now. No offense to anyone, but we've been converting anyone we can into a "pug player" for a while now. Even the more veteran players don't do anything to push each other competitively. (It's pretty funny watching you guys call each other scrubs, when there are people out there, some who've never even played FF, who could come in and unbalance our games by un-stackable amounts)

Now I don't really play that often, so I can't really say. But I feel like you're mostly basing opinions off of your own cheap applications of the gun, while most people haven't even been on the receiving end of it enough times to really develop the proper reactions for it.

It increases the difficulty of airshots; airstrafing and concs already make airshots hard, but jumpgun gives scouts instantaneous airjuking.

Now, I really want you to understand where I'm coming from on my side of the argument. Seeing as how airshots are the biggest reason I play any arena shooter.

But my main reaction to that would be:

So? And?

Airshots are not some integral gameplay design. First of all, F'ing A m8, pull out your shotgun. If someone is in the air, let hitscan take care of it. (kind of like how it really should be in any airborne scenario when your main concern isn't "hit mad wicked airshots yo") Solly, engi, HW have SSG, engi has sentry, HW has AC, demo has shotty. (sure the shotty is shit, but if your demo is the last defense and he already missed his det, oh well, good bye flag, O deserves to move it)

Secondly, I still think that's another thing that comes down to reactions we haven't built up as a community. I'm sure the first time some solly missed an air in TF2 because of scout double jump, he probably thought "omg how will Airs ever be a thing when scouts can abruptly change direction in air?". But now we have frag videos where soldiers either predict/wait for the double jump, or just fire a second rocket after. If jgun is more abrupt than tf2 scouts double jump, I don't know, but I accept the challenge either way.

Handhold conc+jumpgun indoors is insanely strong

I feel like this is BS just because you specified "indoors". The only thing Jgun has to offer concs is insane height, which doesn't come into play "indoors". Other than that, Jgun makes concs much slower than a normal conc. So the only thing Jgun-HH concs offers is, height and unpredictability. Not because the Jgun is inherently unpredictable, but because it's something new that, again, people haven't taken the time to build a reaction to.

By making movement so easy it reduces the importance your other movement.

This is where I agree. I don't think the Jgun was meant to make "movement easy". I think it was meant to enhance movement. But given that, intentionally or coincidentally, maps are modeled around the limits of bhop, concs, and trimps/djumps, the extra push from Jgun has broken that.

It's made for very cheap scenarios. Like you said destroy bats can be a big culprit, and it doesn't even come down to lessening the importance of any current legit battlement exit. The fact that using the Jgun after any trivial amount of explosive knock back for a battlement exit is what really makes it cheap. Basically if you're higher than normal jump height, Jgun will get you out bats. And the the design of that spot means it's all over in a split second before you're safe behind cover.

It's also cheap around phantom ledges, where you had to walk around or trimp, you can now just Jgun.

Although it was billed as an answer to HWG's overpressure

I know Squeek said they were both tested at the same time, with the Jgun being a counter, But I still don't believe the Jgun was just "an OP counter". Mainly because designing something as shitty as OP, at the same time as you design some asinine counter for it seems, really really dumb. I still like to give devs the benefit of the doubt and believe the Jguns main appeal was to add more depth and options to movement, while reinforcing the idea to new players that scout was primarily a movement class. (you know, so that they might be less likely to run around shooting HW's with nails and single shotties)

I find demos to be most affected by jumpgun. I have escaped so many pipetraps that I dead to rights should have died from because jumpgun pushed me above and out of range of pipes. It makes a huge difference in engagements with every defense class. So while the whole overpressure into jumpgun counter is kind of a neat dynamic, I think it messes with the balance of all classes way too much.

And again, as I've keyboard-drooled at you many times before, I think this comes down to nobody being pushed to adjust to new things. Here's the thing, if you Jgun before you touch flag, there's time to repipe. You can fire the gren launcher at full auto and still have time to det every pipe before the next one fires. If you Jgun away from pipes AFTER you've grabbed the flag, it means demo missed his det in the first place.

So basically, in terms of class balance I don't think it's anywhere near as bad as you say. In terms of movement balance I do think it's pretty bad, because the skill curve is esentially: Useful movement tool for new comers, cheap gimmick for vets.

And Either way, I don't care if it stays or goes.

Also I don't see why OP needs to go with it. (seeing as how it's been a part of the game, independent of the Jgun for quite some time) But before OP does go the HW class needs an extremely thorough looking into. Because while 3 or 4 HW's in our community would be fine without it, the rest would be pretty crippled by its removal.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by FDA_Approved

I know Squeek said they were both tested at the same time, with the Jgun being a counter, But I still don't believe the Jgun was just "an OP counter". Mainly because designing something as shitty as OP, at the same time as you design some asinine counter for it seems, really really dumb. I still like to give devs the benefit of the doubt and believe the Jguns main appeal was to add more depth and options to movement, while reinforcing the idea to new players that scout was primarily a movement class. (you know, so that they might be less likely to run around shooting HW's with nails and single shotties)

You're right about this. They were designed separately and just so happened to play off eachother a bit; it was never intentional. You can read a bit about the original goals of the jumpgun here.

I think the criticism that the jumpgun allows for cheap escapes is totally fair, and it's the thing I'm least happy about with it. If anyone has any ideas for how that could be corrected while still meeting some of the goals in the above link, I'm all ears.

As for OP, I agree with FDA that it can be frustrating. It ended up as a far less interactive mechanic than we had hoped it'd be, I think. The original idea was to make the overpressure a projectile, but that got scrapped for what is currently in the game before we ever tested a projectile version. Still unsure if a projectile version would be any better or not.

[homie in reboks']

RIP Fruitcake