IF I - Page 3

chilledsanity · 06-07-2010, 03:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bridget

The community is absolutely terrible (filled with elitists)

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHURCHMOUTH

its only a bad idea to the people who have no chance of winning the money like yourselves

you know damn well i would be getting sum of dat

**squeek.** · 06-07-2010, 04:01 AM

That's what you think elitism is?

Raynian · 06-07-2010, 07:44 AM

It's elitism, sure. But guess what else it is - the truth. Exo has every right to say that.

There has to be an incentive to pick up a new game and play it.

1. It's fun, especially right from the get-go. (quake, gib people while running around and OH FUCK YEAH BFG)
2. It's mass marketed and just like every other game of its type, lots of people! (xbox games)
3. LOLOLOL FUNNAY (TF2.)

FF has none of these. Option 1 is the only possiblity at this point, which can only be achieved by either getting a fucking tutorial system in or dumbing the game down even further.

Bridget · 06-07-2010, 08:09 AM

The game doesn't have to be dumbed down to be enjoyed by casual or other inexperienced players. That's a common misconception. We can keep what makes Fortress Forever fun for the people still around while expanding upon it by giving beginners and the less inexperienced ways to compensate in their early days for the huge skill-gap. This includes movement tools with ease of use, intuitive grenades and weapons, just fun mechanics that make sense out of the box and don't require practice upon practice to keep up with everyone else.

The only problem is, any beginner-friendly suggestion or implementation gets frowned upon by the competitive community. Really, what other reason can I give for their response other than they want to perpetuate difficult mechanics so the 'line in the sand' is there by default? It's almost a Stockholm Syndrome for video games. The community has been exposed to poor implementations so many times, they've become tolerant of them and expect everyone else to do so too.

All in all, the game development doesn't have to go backwards to make Fortress Forever more appealing to players outside of the current niche. It can just as well make the same achievements moving forward. That's if nothing is in its way. :\

**squeek.** · 06-07-2010, 08:10 AM

What Exo said was actually arrogant, not elitist. But oh well. What some people have said in this thread is probably true, prize money tournaments are good to convert casual players into league players, but not to attract many new players (unless the tournaments are very active, encouraging people to pick up the game because it has an active and worthwhile league scene).

That's not to say people should be discouraged from trying to drum up players for tournaments, it's just that offering a big prize pool is not the most worthwhile way to do it at this point.

P.S. Training is 99% done and will be in the next patch (seriously). Here's a small bit of proof:

Bridget · 06-07-2010, 08:12 AM

One could say that arrogance stems from elitism.

**squeek.** · 06-07-2010, 08:13 AM

Or the other way around. Elitism is arrogant, if you consider yourself to be part of the elite.

chilledsanity · 06-07-2010, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squeek.

That's what you think elitism is?

Fine, let's look at the semantics. Elitism, from merriam-webster:

1 : leadership or rule by an elite

-no, he's not really using this definition from that quote

2 : the selectivity of the elite; especially : snobbery <elitism in choosing new members>

-he's making a point of pointing out that others are not as good as he is and he is among the best, so yeah.

3 : consciousness of being or belonging to an elite

-absolutely

So feel free to argue against meeting the criteria of a dictionary definition. Additionally, feel free to employ an alternate perspective.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raynian

It's elitism, sure. But guess what else it is - the truth. Exo has every right to say that.

Oh I hear you, I just thought it was funny seeing Bridget complain that the community is elitist, then see an obvious elitist post shortly afterwards.

**squeek.** · 06-07-2010, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

3 : consciousness of being or belonging to an elite

-absolutely

This is an odd definition for this particular case. It creates a sort of loop. Winning leagues and/or tournaments means that you are part of the elite. That is hard to argue, is it not? So, any player that does well competitively is elitist by that 3rd definition, no matter their actual viewpoint. They have to be conscious of belonging to an elite, because that's the entire point of competing: to see who belongs to the elite.

I'd bet that that's not what Bridget meant. He didn't mean that the problem is that the people that are good at the game and win leagues/tournaments are good at the game and win leagues/tournaments. He meant the more traditional definition, that the people that are good at the game and win leagues/tournaments feel that only people that are good at the game and win leagues/tournaments are worth listening to when making decisions.

CHURCHMOUTH · 06-07-2010, 09:44 PM

you guys really dont know me at all but ill try to explain. im actually not like that at all and i dont consider myself one of the best. i was kidding when i said partials shit is crap and i guess i shouldnt have said id win the tourney sorry

cjeshjoir™ · 06-07-2010, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHURCHMOUTH

you guys really dont know me at all but i was really looking forward to taking this poor fools money in this tourney because im p good and ur not. i wasnt kidding when i said cj was a bitch or watevr becuz hes a bitchface with a butt for a face in the toilet ololol.

reaper18 · 06-07-2010, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squeek.

P.S. Training is 99% done and will be in the next patch (seriously). Here's a small bit of proof:

Squeek, stop being such a tease

WarPig · 06-08-2010, 03:13 AM

advertising is key, imho I understand where all of you are coming from but the amount of new players you need to gain and get pubbing to balance out the skill of others isn't out of reach just takes that extra step.

Sorry for offering something and watch the forums turn into a shit fest because discussing something normal is 100% out of reach for the "adults" here.

Bridget · 06-08-2010, 07:09 AM

Advertising shouldn't be as much of a priority as everyone thinks it should. What's the point of advertising a product that is only going to appeal to a handful of players? Each advertised patch that doesn't appeal to the casual or inexperienced player will actually make people less likely to try Fortress Forever in the future when it very well may be suited to them; It's a cry-wolf scenario. There isn't an infinite audience out there. The product has to be polished first.

JackBauer · 06-08-2010, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bridget

The product has to be polished first.

I gotta disagree with that mate. Half Life 2 and the source engine came out in November 2004, almost 6 years ago. FF came out 3-4 years ago? Both games look outdated today imo, no offense.

I don't think we got a half or even a whole year to polish the game first. by that time it will look even older.

it's a riddle to me why only a few guys play this game. I can think of three options though:

a) CTF-games are a no-go nowadays, no one wants to play that anymore. people want other type of games with military and army guys (battlefield, CoD), terrorists (cs) and different game modes.

b) although FF is for free, don't underestimate the laziness of the general people that play online games. they can't be arsed to find ff on the net and download it. unless you give them a dvd or provide an easy download function on steam they won't give it a go.
I had massive trouble to make my mates play quakelive. they only had to sign up but they were total noobs and had no clue what to do - they kept asking and I had to guide them through everything till they could take part in their first game.

c) some casual gamers need a boost to carry on playing the same game: e.g. achievements. that way they will be highly motivated and want to reach the next level/achievement. if my memory serves me correctly even CS has introduced achievements now - or is about to do it.
Personally I'm not a big fan of this idea though. achievements better stay out of FF imo.

Bridget · 06-08-2010, 11:18 AM

I meant that the game-play should be polished. Graphics are pretty much irrelevant. If a game has excellent game-play then it usually overshadows the graphical side of the game. Though, having a good looking game does help.

Capture the Flag isn't an inherently bad game-type. It's just limitless and gets old. There's nothing driving people to capture the flag except for the rush of breaking defense or concussing around the map. There's never any high points. The points mean nothing. There needs to be something to break the timelimit, which is usually like 30 minutes of endless caps. Put a capture limit on it. First team to 10 captured flags wins and brings on a new map. Also, there needs to be an incentive to even capture to begin with. Team Fortress 2 did this by giving the entire team critical damage for a few seconds after their teammate capped. Figure something out. Until them, enjoy your deathmatch.

I think Fortress Forever is pretty easy to obtain, but having the game on Steamworks would make it even better. This goes back to my point though. The game should be polished before it goes up on Steamworks otherwise you're going to turn away that initial rush of downloaders and discourage them for giving it a try in the future after it continuously fails to meet their demand. People expect things to be in working order, especially if it's reached the status of being promoted through Steamworks.

Achievements are okay, because in an ideal system, they would be optional. Achievements get a bad reputation because so many games have them unlocking weapons or giving people perks or some other advantage that makes them mandatory. If they're optional, they could easily keep people interested in the game and have a huge potential to be an easy way to teach people how to play the game without directly holding their hand or beating it into them. They learn at their own pace and expand upon previous knowledge. Those who don't want to do the achievements don't have to. It's a win-win.

JackBauer · 06-08-2010, 05:40 PM

I agree some things need to be fixed or balanced in my opinion. however the competition is huge, FF is a mod and has to face fullprice titles of professional developers who get paid for their work, while the FF devs give their spare time for their game. it's an unfair battle and in my eyes can't be won. don't get me wrong, although I'm new to this game I reallly appreciate this mod and the work everyone involved has done.

I just assume after 3 years it's too late to still be polishing the game and hope for new players to join. professional devs bring their "unfinished" game on the market and keep working on it with several patches within a short time of period. as I said before, when you got paid fulltime devs, you can work much faster and more efficient.

People get more and more lazy (well at least among my circles). they don't even bother downloading FF because they expect a very complicated installing program - kinda like the old PES patches. unless you hand the game to them on a silver platter they won't even download it. I'm sure a lot of people are like that these days. steamworks would be a good start imo.

I wouldn't like to see new weapons getting introduced in FF as an achievement. awards like in L4D or rankings like in CoD could be the trick.

zE · 06-09-2010, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bridget

I meant that the game-play should be polished. Graphics are pretty much irrelevant. If a game has excellent game-play then it usually overshadows the graphical side of the game. Though, having a good looking game does help.

meh if that was the case i would still be playng tfc that have + players then ff : ) aldow i love the trimps

Rutabeggar · 06-09-2010, 03:50 PM

The irony of paying players to play a game that was made for free is pretty ridiculous. The Devs (past and present) didn't get a monetary "reward" for spending a few years of their lives producing this gem only to see the community eat its young like a retarded lion. The thrill is gone folks. You won't fix this game, not because it's terribly designed or has terrible content. You won't fix it because everyone remembers the penis wrinkles who repeatedly scared new players away. You go through a TF2 forum or server and ask how many people remember FF or care that it still exists and 99% of them will tell you they don't care. People put this mod out of their minds because of shit like this thread so efficiently displays. The community is toxic and no one wants to play with any of the "regulars" that still hang around. If you want to really give FF another chance you have to rename it, re-release it (with training), and advertise it as an alternative to your everyday FPS. Paying players to play a tournament? We should pay the devs for sticking around and putting up with this retarded horse shit.

Barsteward · 06-09-2010, 05:25 PM

Its quite funny in a way - decided to pop back on here after watching some TFC movies and looking up some old clan websites.

Almost two years exactly since I last visited: 07-06-2008 at 11:28 PM

TFC died because of a small minority who felt they were better than others and everyone should play the game their way.

I stopped coming to these forums because it was happening here as well. Two years later - and sadly nothing has changed.

FF should be a massive success, the time and effort the devs put into it is incredible. Unfortunately they have allowed a small minority to ruin it.

The best bet in many ways - as Rutabeggar has intimated - would be to ban a not insignificant number of people from these forums and come up with a relaunch plan that would be new player friendly.

06-07-2010, 04:01 AM	#42
squeek. Stuff Do-er Lua Team Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Northern California Class/Position: Rallygun Shooter Gametype: Conc tag (you just wait) Affiliations: Mustache Brigade Posts Rated Helpful 352 Times	That's what you think elitism is? __________________ #FF.Pickup ¤ Fortress-Forever pickups My Non-official Maps Released FF_DM_Squeek - FF_2Mesa3_Classic - FF_Siege_Classic Beta FF_Myth - FF_Redlight_Greenlight Sick of the people on the internet, always moanin'. They just moan. - Karl Pilkington

06-07-2010, 08:10 AM	#45
squeek. Stuff Do-er Lua Team Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Northern California Class/Position: Rallygun Shooter Gametype: Conc tag (you just wait) Affiliations: Mustache Brigade Posts Rated Helpful 352 Times	What Exo said was actually arrogant, not elitist. But oh well. What some people have said in this thread is probably true, prize money tournaments are good to convert casual players into league players, but not to attract many new players (unless the tournaments are very active, encouraging people to pick up the game because it has an active and worthwhile league scene). That's not to say people should be discouraged from trying to drum up players for tournaments, it's just that offering a big prize pool is not the most worthwhile way to do it at this point. P.S. Training is 99% done and will be in the next patch (seriously). Here's a small bit of proof: __________________ #FF.Pickup ¤ Fortress-Forever pickups My Non-official Maps Released FF_DM_Squeek - FF_2Mesa3_Classic - FF_Siege_Classic Beta FF_Myth - FF_Redlight_Greenlight Sick of the people on the internet, always moanin'. They just moan. - Karl Pilkington Last edited by squeek.; 06-07-2010 at 08:10 AM.

06-07-2010, 08:13 AM	#47
squeek. Stuff Do-er Lua Team Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Northern California Class/Position: Rallygun Shooter Gametype: Conc tag (you just wait) Affiliations: Mustache Brigade Posts Rated Helpful 352 Times	Or the other way around. Elitism is arrogant, if you consider yourself to be part of the elite. __________________ #FF.Pickup ¤ Fortress-Forever pickups My Non-official Maps Released FF_DM_Squeek - FF_2Mesa3_Classic - FF_Siege_Classic Beta FF_Myth - FF_Redlight_Greenlight Sick of the people on the internet, always moanin'. They just moan. - Karl Pilkington

06-07-2010, 09:44 PM	#50
CHURCHMOUTH crystaLcity D&A Member Beta Tester Join Date: May 2009 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Class/Position: Soldier D Gametype: Capture the Flag Affiliations: Goodfellas Posts Rated Helpful 7 Times	you guys really dont know me at all but ill try to explain. im actually not like that at all and i dont consider myself one of the best. i was kidding when i said partials shit is crap and i guess i shouldnt have said id win the tourney sorry __________________ 83745 L0LZ ff_nyx_b2 ff_schrape_b3 ff_security_b1 ff_baked_b2 ff_reloaded_b1 ff_mulch_dm_b2 ff_oppose_b1

06-08-2010, 11:18 AM	#56
Bridget Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times	I meant that the game-play should be polished. Graphics are pretty much irrelevant. If a game has excellent game-play then it usually overshadows the graphical side of the game. Though, having a good looking game does help. Capture the Flag isn't an inherently bad game-type. It's just limitless and gets old. There's nothing driving people to capture the flag except for the rush of breaking defense or concussing around the map. There's never any high points. The points mean nothing. There needs to be something to break the timelimit, which is usually like 30 minutes of endless caps. Put a capture limit on it. First team to 10 captured flags wins and brings on a new map. Also, there needs to be an incentive to even capture to begin with. Team Fortress 2 did this by giving the entire team critical damage for a few seconds after their teammate capped. Figure something out. Until them, enjoy your deathmatch. I think Fortress Forever is pretty easy to obtain, but having the game on Steamworks would make it even better. This goes back to my point though. The game should be polished before it goes up on Steamworks otherwise you're going to turn away that initial rush of downloaders and discourage them for giving it a try in the future after it continuously fails to meet their demand. People expect things to be in working order, especially if it's reached the status of being promoted through Steamworks. Achievements are okay, because in an ideal system, they would be optional. Achievements get a bad reputation because so many games have them unlocking weapons or giving people perks or some other advantage that makes them mandatory. If they're optional, they could easily keep people interested in the game and have a huge potential to be an easy way to teach people how to play the game without directly holding their hand or beating it into them. They learn at their own pace and expand upon previous knowledge. Those who don't want to do the achievements don't have to. It's a win-win. Last edited by Bridget; 06-08-2010 at 11:20 AM.

06-07-2010, 07:44 AM	#43
Raynian D&A Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Ruining #pickups Class/Position: SPAWN CAMPING OH NO Gametype: Ragequitting Affiliations: [PMS]. [Shiney] Posts Rated Helpful 26 Times	It's elitism, sure. But guess what else it is - the truth. Exo has every right to say that. There has to be an incentive to pick up a new game and play it. 1. It's fun, especially right from the get-go. (quake, gib people while running around and OH FUCK YEAH BFG) 2. It's mass marketed and just like every other game of its type, lots of people! (xbox games) 3. LOLOLOL FUNNAY (TF2.) FF has none of these. Option 1 is the only possiblity at this point, which can only be achieved by either getting a fucking tutorial system in or dumbing the game down even further.

06-07-2010, 08:09 AM	#44
Bridget Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times	The game doesn't have to be dumbed down to be enjoyed by casual or other inexperienced players. That's a common misconception. We can keep what makes Fortress Forever fun for the people still around while expanding upon it by giving beginners and the less inexperienced ways to compensate in their early days for the huge skill-gap. This includes movement tools with ease of use, intuitive grenades and weapons, just fun mechanics that make sense out of the box and don't require practice upon practice to keep up with everyone else. The only problem is, any beginner-friendly suggestion or implementation gets frowned upon by the competitive community. Really, what other reason can I give for their response other than they want to perpetuate difficult mechanics so the 'line in the sand' is there by default? It's almost a Stockholm Syndrome for video games. The community has been exposed to poor implementations so many times, they've become tolerant of them and expect everyone else to do so too. All in all, the game development doesn't have to go backwards to make Fortress Forever more appealing to players outside of the current niche. It can just as well make the same achievements moving forward. That's if nothing is in its way. :\

06-07-2010, 08:12 AM	#46
Bridget Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times	One could say that arrogance stems from elitism.

06-08-2010, 03:13 AM	#53
WarPig ThE O h G r Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: NY 315 Class/Position: Engi/HW/Pyro - Defender Gametype: Capture the Flag Affiliations: Pigs of War/ [AE] Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	advertising is key, imho I understand where all of you are coming from but the amount of new players you need to gain and get pubbing to balance out the skill of others isn't out of reach just takes that extra step. Sorry for offering something and watch the forums turn into a shit fest because discussing something normal is 100% out of reach for the "adults" here.

06-08-2010, 07:09 AM	#54
Bridget Banned Join Date: Sep 2008 Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times	Advertising shouldn't be as much of a priority as everyone thinks it should. What's the point of advertising a product that is only going to appeal to a handful of players? Each advertised patch that doesn't appeal to the casual or inexperienced player will actually make people less likely to try Fortress Forever in the future when it very well may be suited to them; It's a cry-wolf scenario. There isn't an infinite audience out there. The product has to be polished first.

06-08-2010, 05:40 PM	#57
JackBauer Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Switzerland Posts Rated Helpful 20 Times	I agree some things need to be fixed or balanced in my opinion. however the competition is huge, FF is a mod and has to face fullprice titles of professional developers who get paid for their work, while the FF devs give their spare time for their game. it's an unfair battle and in my eyes can't be won. don't get me wrong, although I'm new to this game I reallly appreciate this mod and the work everyone involved has done. I just assume after 3 years it's too late to still be polishing the game and hope for new players to join. professional devs bring their "unfinished" game on the market and keep working on it with several patches within a short time of period. as I said before, when you got paid fulltime devs, you can work much faster and more efficient. People get more and more lazy (well at least among my circles). they don't even bother downloading FF because they expect a very complicated installing program - kinda like the old PES patches. unless you hand the game to them on a silver platter they won't even download it. I'm sure a lot of people are like that these days. steamworks would be a good start imo. I wouldn't like to see new weapons getting introduced in FF as an achievement. awards like in L4D or rankings like in CoD could be the trick. __________________ Swiss Fortress Community

06-09-2010, 03:50 PM	#59
Rutabeggar D&A Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	The irony of paying players to play a game that was made for free is pretty ridiculous. The Devs (past and present) didn't get a monetary "reward" for spending a few years of their lives producing this gem only to see the community eat its young like a retarded lion. The thrill is gone folks. You won't fix this game, not because it's terribly designed or has terrible content. You won't fix it because everyone remembers the penis wrinkles who repeatedly scared new players away. You go through a TF2 forum or server and ask how many people remember FF or care that it still exists and 99% of them will tell you they don't care. People put this mod out of their minds because of shit like this thread so efficiently displays. The community is toxic and no one wants to play with any of the "regulars" that still hang around. If you want to really give FF another chance you have to rename it, re-release it (with training), and advertise it as an alternative to your everyday FPS. Paying players to play a tournament? We should pay the devs for sticking around and putting up with this retarded horse shit. Last edited by Rutabeggar; 06-09-2010 at 03:53 PM.

06-09-2010, 05:25 PM	#60
Barsteward Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Its quite funny in a way - decided to pop back on here after watching some TFC movies and looking up some old clan websites. Almost two years exactly since I last visited: 07-06-2008 at 11:28 PM TFC died because of a small minority who felt they were better than others and everyone should play the game their way. I stopped coming to these forums because it was happening here as well. Two years later - and sadly nothing has changed. FF should be a massive success, the time and effort the devs put into it is incredible. Unfortunately they have allowed a small minority to ruin it. The best bet in many ways - as Rutabeggar has intimated - would be to ban a not insignificant number of people from these forums and come up with a relaunch plan that would be new player friendly.

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