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Old 01-19-2009, 06:43 PM   #121
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Another problem that is faced with the engineer is that the SG generally 'steals' kills when placed in conjunction with a defender. In public play, this is not desirable for those that are defending the gun. In order to coax people in to defending the gun, an assist feature needs to be made.

Even further, in order to truly get the idea that kills don't matter out of peoples heads (which is one major issue with public play that has carried over from TFC's 10 kills a cap feature), kills and deaths need to be removed. This won't happen due to how many people in the FF pub community care about their K/D ratio. The thing that would take over the K/D ratio would be fortress points, but that's probably never going to happen.

So, in order to get people in the mind set that assisting the SG is O.K. to do, and what you should do, a new system will have to be introduced ~ something that will take lots of time and effort. An assist system, similar to TF2 would have to be introduced. And, again, you have many people that bitch and complain about any feature in FF being even slightly similar to TF2.

The entire situation is absolutely fubar. There truly is no pleasing anybody in this entire mess.

So, to sum everything up:

1. The problems with the engineer do not revolve around the engineer. Instead they revolve around public play.

2. In order to 'fix' the engineer for public play while ensuring he is still useful for competitive games, he will have to be fundamentally changed.

2a. People would not like the engineer to be fundamentally changed.

2b. Shit sucks.

3. The alternative to 'fixing' the engineer for public play would be to change the scoring system.

3a. People would not like the scoring system to be changed.

3b. Shit sucks.

This is the entire situation with the engineer currently.
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Old 01-19-2009, 06:46 PM   #122
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Credge pretty much sum it
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Old 01-19-2009, 07:14 PM   #123
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pretty much yeah credge i agree 99%, but you can always find a balance. its impossible not to when we have the freedom of code. change the balance of power to strenght. there is always a balance. even with the current design you can find a compromise. most can try to prove otherwise... but this is the case. ignorance is the enemy of progress.
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Old 01-19-2009, 07:29 PM   #124
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I don't think it's possible to find a balance between the effectiveness of the SG in public and league play. What public players are looking for is an effective public engineer class. In order to get what they want, the engineer will have to be buffed.

If the engineer is buffed, the engineer will be overpowering in league play. There is no slight buff that will bring the engineer in public play to acceptable levels without making the competitive engineer overpowered.

It's simply how the engineer currently is. Any buff to the engineer will make him exponentially more powerful in structured play. In 2.0 the engineer was just fine in public play. In league play he was multiple times stronger, not because there is any difference to how the class is played but because of the difference found in how the defense works.

It's this sort of problem that makes balancing the current engineer a futile effort. There is no code that could be introduced that would make competitive players stop from getting the most out of the game.
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Old 01-19-2009, 09:03 PM   #125
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And this is why you cannot always listen to the playerbase's opinion... It might be one of the main reasons why some gameplay may appear unbalanced now after you listened to them and tweaked the classes.
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Old 01-19-2009, 10:27 PM   #126
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Thing is, you can't ignore the playerbases opinions..... else you lose the playerbase.

I agree with a lot Credge had to say... although, the altered scoring option would probably be the best solution. I proposed a point system that was rather complex, and probably needed some tweeking to make it balanced. It went over like a diahretic fart in a space suit.
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Old 01-19-2009, 10:51 PM   #127
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Thing is, you can't ignore the playerbases opinions..... else you lose the playerbase.
Yep. The problem is, we have two groups of players. Public players and league players. When 2.0 came out, league players complained about the engineer being stupidly strong, hence the change. The main issue with the 2.0 SG was that the push was too strong. It was so strong that it made the game revolve around the SG.

Even though the push is gone, many maps still revolve around the SG. This really isn't a desirable trait as the SG takes the lowest possible skill to use (none) and is highly effective when used properly. When you compare this to every other class, it doesn't fit.

It's this reason, and this reason alone, that there can not be a balance struck between the public and league play engineers. The stronger you make the SG, the more overpowering the class becomes in league play. Primarily it's the lack of player skill interaction that makes the SG like this.

The only possible ways to fix this would be to introduce a new scoring system to help promote more structured, team oriented, public play OR to change the engineer class so that the SG is the support power of the engineer class instead of the engineer being the support power for the SG.

Realistically there is no alternative to this. There is no magical variable that helps the SG in public play while making it retain the level of effectiveness it has in league play WITHOUT overpowering it. It's just not there. There is no damage tweak, no rate of fire tweak, no range tweak, no variable that exists or could be made that would introduce an element in to public play that brings the SG up to par that won't be abused by competitive level players.

That's just the nature of the SG. If this was a player controlled entity then this would be different. It isn't, so the usefulness of a constant becomes more and more powerful as team chemistry gets closer and closer.

Edit: Really, the easiest solution would be to remake the scoring system, as you suggested a while back. Retooling the Engineer class isn't a desirable solution as many love how the engineer is currently.
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Old 01-20-2009, 12:02 AM   #128
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There is a way to tweek it a bit. As you noted, any noob can set an SG up, but a knowledgable player(knowledge = power) can put one up that is almost unbeatable.

A few knowledgable players could effectively lock down half of a map if they work together. However, that could be any map with the right few players working together.

Take a look at that scoring system I came up with... see what you think, and make whatever changes you think are right. May not change anything, but it'd be entertaining to see your interpretation.
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Old 01-20-2009, 02:22 AM   #129
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Thing is, you can't ignore the playerbases opinions..... else you lose the playerbase.
What I was trying to say was that you're always going to have players who complain about something, sometimes when it's because of their own fault like their skill, and usually the developers take the complaint as an unbalanced part of gameplay when it's really that the complainer is crappy. Say as if someone is horrible at backstabbing with a knife. They might go nerd rage and post about how the hitboxes for the backs aren't big enough, and the developers take it as an issue with gameplay and tweak with values that shouldn't be messed with in the first place.
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Old 01-20-2009, 10:09 PM   #130
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then Credge what about a frankly hackish solution to please both sides?

have different game play modes, (competitive and public play) with the gameplay tweaked and suited to fit each.

its a bad solution to a bad problem but may have some nice side effects as adding some variety and allowing some noobs to try out and play a different more team oriented style when they feel like it by joining a competitive server.

and may even get more noobs interested in competitive play since playing on a competitive server would require them to change their play style.

some would say this would split the community a bit but how would it hurt it if the community is so split over the changes to the sniper and engy for example.

it would allow both groups to be happy with the same game rather then one group happy and the other annoyed or both groups only partially happy.
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Old 01-20-2009, 10:39 PM   #131
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Well, there is no one set of competitive rules. The two most common rule sets are 4v4 OVD pickup and 5v5 full game league play and they play completely differently. In essence, these are two separate game types, with the 5v5 full game playing more like a pub (two teams both having offense and defense) and the 4v4 OVD playing much unlike a pub.

There's really nothing you can do in that department. Even further, it widens the gap between pub and league play... something that really isn't a good thing for both league and pub play. Might as well be two different games at that point.

Edit: Mainly I was showcasing the problems present with balancing the engineer and showing that the problems present in the class are not the fault of the class but instead the fault of the public community and their inability to play as a team.

Part of the problem is that CTF is poor for team work in public play as it requires a tight knit group of people to work together. The other part of the problem is that there is no PERSONAL incentive to guard the engineer or his gun. The other part of the problem is that the alternative to changing the scoring system (the answer to the previous problem) is to change the engineer. The problem with that is there are lots of people that like how the engineer is now.

This is exactly like the sniper. You're not changing the sniper to actually be viable or worthwhile without changing how the sniper behaves or functions. The problem is worse with the sniper, though, as there is no such thing as protecting a sniper.

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Old 01-20-2009, 11:02 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaLeB- View Post
What I was trying to say was that you're always going to have players who complain about something, sometimes when it's because of their own fault like their skill, and usually the developers take the complaint as an unbalanced part of gameplay when it's really that the complainer is crappy. Say as if someone is horrible at backstabbing with a knife. They might go nerd rage and post about how the hitboxes for the backs aren't big enough, and the developers take it as an issue with gameplay and tweak with values that shouldn't be messed with in the first place.
No, you don't just go on 1 persons complaints... but at that point, someone can independently look into it, to see if there actually is a problem. Otherwise, you wait for more complaints about the same issue. If a bunch of people have a problem, then something(even if it's only educating the players) will have to be done.

Ignoring a complaint rather than addressing it will make the complainer go away, and that's a bunch of potential players gone from lack of "word of mouth" advertising. True, we can't please everyone.... but by addressing the questions that come with a game like this will at least let players know that the dev team wants the game to succeed, rather than just being narrowly targetted at a specific group(leagues).
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Old 01-20-2009, 11:30 PM   #133
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I'm pretty sure we CAN please everyone eventually. The problems that Credge lists are real, but can be solved through gameplay changes. The engineer should not have to rely on other defenders so much, and to do this we need to decouple the engineer from sitting behind the SG the whole game holding down his attack button. I dont think adjusting the scoring system is the right way to approach this part of the (much larger) problem. I'm working on some SG redesigns which I think WILL please everyone, but it'll take time and a lot of testing.

2.2 was supposed to be a fast patch to fix the HW and the dispenser-bag crash, but it dragged on and on. So i'm sorry to everyone who thought the SG would get a major rebalancing due to the time it took to come out. Rest assured that the SG stuff is still to come.

Its a shame we didnt get around to it for 2.2, but hopefully it'll be worth the wait.
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Old 01-20-2009, 11:45 PM   #134
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..and to reiterate: we are short on staff, or rather manhours.

So any coders, modellers (especially character), texture artists.. please do apply via http://www.fortress-forever.com/jobs/ .
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Old 01-21-2009, 12:01 AM   #135
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I'm pretty sure we CAN please everyone eventually. The problems that Credge lists are real, but can be solved through gameplay changes. The engineer should not have to rely on other defenders so much, and to do this we need to decouple the engineer from sitting behind the SG the whole game holding down his attack button.
This is the only realistic change. I know I said it in the past, but I think the best way to go about this is to make the SG a support power of the engineers firepower instead of the engineer being a support power the the SG's firepower.

The other is to change the scoring system, but then the problem of assists and all that becomes a big issue.

Mainly, I think that no matter what there will be people angry at changes made due to realistic fixes revolving around gameplay changes around the engineer. Primarily in the paradigm shift between the engineer being an assisting class to one that is more up front and in your face. Sort of like a defensive medic but with a little helper to piew-piew baddies.
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Old 01-22-2009, 02:43 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by Credge
here is no middle ground. It does not exist. It did not exist in TFC, and it can not exist here due to the similar game play mechanics of the overall game and the engineer from TFC to FF.
Then what was it for TFC? Underpowered or overpowered? I thought the engineer was great in that, but then I only did pubs, I didn't do league play.

CaLeB: Yeah you definitely shouldn't listen to every yahoo claiming something is wrong, but what seems to be lacking sometimes is substantiated comments. In an ideal world, someone playtesting the game for hours and detailing specific problems they're seeing would carry a little more weight than someone claiming the contrary with no evidence or reasoning to back it, but that doesn't happen that much.
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Old 01-22-2009, 07:31 AM   #137
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Then what was it for TFC? Underpowered or overpowered? I thought the engineer was great in that, but then I only did pubs, I didn't do league play.
It was balanced, but TFC was a different game.
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Old 01-22-2009, 09:52 AM   #138
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tfc was good, very good.
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Old 01-22-2009, 10:56 AM   #139
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how about we remove automatic shit like sentries? like its been said before, its a skillless weapon, in an otherwise high skill game. it would be a drastic change, i know. but i'm sure something else could fill the void.
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Old 01-22-2009, 11:15 AM   #140
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how about we remove automatic shit like sentries? like its been said before, its a skillless weapon, in an otherwise high skill game. it would be a drastic change, i know. but i'm sure something else could fill the void.

I wouldn't advocate removing the SG altogether, it serves a purpose, and tbh it isn't fortress without an SG.

The key relies in informing the player of the proper expectations, nobody enjoys being disappointed, and I think we can all see that pub players are generally disappointed with the SG's performance.

Credge hit the nail on the head, 1 defensive class can help defend or bait the SG for a devastatiing effect, but there is no incentive to do so, as the SG eats their points.

Btw, to answer alot of questions about transparency that have been propping up, most of the beta testers are pretty wordy, and we like to talk, alot. So we end up discussing issues like these in private spaces, that you guys just aren't privy to. So please continue to post feedback, we all read it, and it definitely inspires me to think outside of the box!

Fortress Forever stands as an echo to the desires of the community, TF2 didn't cut it, so we're here. We want our player base to grow and eventually rival that of any other FPS on the market. For a free mod with no major retail distributors, we're not doing too bad if you ask me!

The devs and staff work long hours to bring this game to us, and every bit of constructive criticism helps them bring you the game you want!

Good job FF team, keep up the good work.
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