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Old 03-01-2010, 08:45 AM   #61
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Things just need to be judged on a case by case basis. 99% of the time these people make outrageous claims, and 99% of the time they're unable to back them up.
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Old 03-01-2010, 09:06 AM   #62
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Yeah although it's worse in this case since some of his points are valid, if exaggerated. Obviously people play defense, but I can't say I find it fun anymore. The odds blow compared to what they used to be and I feel like with ng and hwguy you just don't have the means to hold good O back effectively (compared to TFC and early FF). I think only demo and solly still hold their own in terms of defense now, but that's not enough to carry a team.

And yes, your point about skill is valid, if you don't understand the game, you shouldn't be complaining about balance. However for those who do know what they're doing, nowadays skilled players on D are consistently going to lose to players of equal skill on O.
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Old 03-01-2010, 12:17 PM   #63
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FF is a faster game than TFC and many more caps are scored. I don't know if you played TFC competitively. I did. Offense was too hard. In TFC, because of this fact, you were either a Defensive player most of the time, or you were an Offensive player most of the time (Which is why the major leagues had a 5v5 or 9v9 format). There were plenty of exceptions to this rule, but in general, Offense was way more difficult than it is in FF, and made it sort of an exclusive role in TFC. In FF, because it's faster, it's easier, across the board to play offense. Offense is now accessible for most people. However, like any game that requires practice, it won't come to you immediately.

Is this a bad thing? I wouldn't say 'defense is harder', I'd say that the bar is raised, as far as what is acceptable for a 'normal' amount of caps.

Also, you have to realize that, a defense that locks down offense will get the offense mad. An offense that pulls out a couple (Not too excessive) caps won't get the defense as mad. I think FF's design policy in regard to offensive/defensive roles is near perfect.
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Old 03-01-2010, 09:29 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenghisTron
I don't know if you played TFC competitively. I did. Offense was too hard.
Well see this might explain our viewpoints on it. I played TFC for years and pretty much all I did was dustbowl, warpath, and some other misc. AvD like avanti. In that, defense was just about right. Offense would progress slowly and you feel like you earned every cap you got. For rounds with time limits, it would often get down to the wire as to who would win. The best games to me are the ones that are the closest, where the tide could turn at any minute. So what was too hard for competitive play, was extremely well balanced for pub AvD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenghisTron
Is this a bad thing? I wouldn't say 'defense is harder', I'd say that the bar is raised, as far as what is acceptable for a 'normal' amount of caps.
See it may not be a bad thing for CTF, but it's suicide for AvD. For I/D you have rounds that are over super fast (cornfield, ksour, napoli, etc.), and on AvD, on every TFC port, offense pretty much always wins now (assuming O isn't incompetent). Instead of a close game, I'm getting foregone conclusions. And yes, I find it harder. No matter what I do, I can never really stop O now if there's a good flagrunner. Demoman is the only area I can still reliably stop him, however if another runner comes right in after me piping the other, I'm fucked; my team isn't providing the support I used to get in engy and hwguy due to the stacking changes.

The opposite is also true. When I'm on O, it's just a matter of time before I cap. Except for something like basicbowl, D can never really stop me for long now. This may just mean more caps in CTF, but in AvD it slants the game to a ridiculous amount and has for a while now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenghisTron
Also, you have to realize that, a defense that locks down offense will get the offense mad.
This works both ways. This is obviously my opinion, but Defense in AvD is simply NOT FUN anymore. You don't have the stopping power you need and O stomps all over your ass. Alternately, there's far less challenge for O now, making it too easy if I'm on that side. On quick change I/D maps it's basically like waiting on your turn to have an easy victory v. bending over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GenghisTron
I think FF's design policy in regard to offensive/defensive roles is near perfect.
Well I think unless they correct the balance in the future for AvD, the FF dev team has effectively killed off the only reason I played TFC and FF in the first place.

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Old 03-02-2010, 10:03 AM   #65
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Elmo: 2.41 finally out (after some delay)! Now for the 'real' patch, expect some of the biggest changes to come!



Way to get me hyped Elmo.
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Old 03-02-2010, 11:35 PM   #66
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Yeah, Elmo, thanks for hyping us up about something that's probably not coming until after Ubuntu 10.4 gets released. Lucid Lynx actully isn't too far off, though....

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Old 03-03-2010, 10:31 AM   #67
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LOL I did post quite prematurely guessing as to what we might put in.

We're going over stuff now, prioritising. As it stands we have enough planned to span a possible ~3 versions. But please note that they are pretty much all ideas so far where most haven't even seen the likes of beta testers yet!

Then upon reaching beta there's a lot of testing to be done and who knows what will make it and what stuff we might scrap.

So yeah OoooOoooooOooO.. I'm quite excited anyway lol
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Old 03-03-2010, 01:41 PM   #68
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Oh man. Please tell me the Goop Gun will be made a reality. Or the Chainsaw Launcher.
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Old 03-03-2010, 06:12 PM   #69
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oh gawd. i just got a semi elmo.
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Old 03-05-2010, 02:34 AM   #70
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Hello everyone, and congrats on the progress with the mod!

Just thought I'd introduce myself and throw in my two cents. Although I've been lurking around since before the initial release, I don't think I've actually posted on these forums before. I used to play a fair bit of pub games but never been in competitive play, so forgive me if my view on the mod differs from yours.

I'm not really out to make you change the direction this mod is going, seeing how many have tried and faced nothing but compact flame defence, but I'll tell you what made me stop playing FF. Feel free to throw the "z0mg l2p n00b", "go play counterstrike", "cry more" etc in my face, but the truth is that I represent the average joe that plays for a laugh, and that is the player base which almost every game community relies on, so at least hear me out.

I came into FF from the same TFC background as chilledsanity - large pub games, fair bit of AvD. Now, although FF wasn't supposed to be TF:Source, it was released with the same maps that were popular on the large TFC pub servers. Some CTF maps played quite well right off the bat, while AvD was unbalanced towards the offensive team. I thought, since AvD maps were released, that there would be map/class tweaks towards defence, but instead the game was tweaked towards organized competitive play, and the flyboys (scout/medic) in particular were given a greater impact with every version of the mod.

"Fine", I thought, "I'll try to learn that", and went off spending hours and hours on various conc maps, and got pretty good at it eventually, but I never found a good way to defend my base against these guys. For a while, the engi+soldier/fatty combination worked quite well, but as they were nerfed even more, AvD became a joke and CTF was eventually all about who was the fastest to fly to the enemy base and back, leaving little room for alternative strategies. At this point I stopped promoting the mod to other communities, since those who tried it out told me they were disappointed with the gameplay. Apparently, the elitist attitude among the better players wasn't providing much of a warm welcome either.

I have downloaded and tried every new release of FF in the past, but reading through the changelog for 2.41 makes me realize I don't even have to bother, this mod simply isn't for me. For a mod that once aimed to be widely popular, Fortress Forever is focusing too much on pleasing the best, effectively killing every last instance of casual gaming, and with it the chance to grow.
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Old 03-05-2010, 06:52 AM   #71
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Grenade throwspeed changed to 660 down from 700 (2.3 value was 630)
Does that affect concs to?
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Old 03-05-2010, 09:13 AM   #72
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Does that affect concs to?
Yes.
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Old 03-05-2010, 09:30 AM   #73
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I thought, since AvD maps were released, that there would be map/class tweaks towards defence, but instead the game was tweaked towards organized competitive play, and the flyboys (scout/medic) in particular were given a greater impact with every version of the mod.
Do you have any ideas that would improve the defensive classes? Maybe you could post some suggestions.

As an example, there are people who would like the Engineer to be improved somehow and are not super happy about the EMP decrease.
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Old 03-05-2010, 11:46 AM   #74
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ghoti: Thanks for your post, it's a reminder I'm not insane. I've played FF since 1.0 and got involved in the forums a couple months later because I saw what I thought were a few glaring flaws that weren't getting addressed, so I assumed it was because the devs were simply unaware of them. While in a few cases that was true, by and large the feedback I've gotten is either denial or deluded reasoning, followed by changes that make the problems even worse, making me wish things just stayed the way they were. I believe I'm in the minority of people who think AvD is unbalanced (or if I'm not now, I have been a long time). From my perspective, it feels like The Emperor's New Clothes, followed by the Emperor's summer and fall fashion line-up.

I'm pretty much where you stand now. I've tried to hold on to FF, but the balance has gotten so atrocious I can't recommend it to friends now and I really wish I could; I loved TFC and I'm not a fan of TF2 by any means. I've really wanted to like FF, I think the visuals are incredible for a mod and the devs of the past did a fantastic job of preserving the TF highlights. I've never looked for a reason to hate it, on the contrary, I feel like the parent who had high hopes for his kid that ends up going and robbing a liquor store. I mean true, it's just a mod, but I'm sad to see it become what it has.

be_: At the risk of stating the obvious, what's the problem with making the game more like TFC? Bring back the longer build times, bring back the push and damage TFC had. Give the sentries more health to compensate for the lack of blocking splash damage. They may not be able to keep up tracking with the increased speeds of the players, so why not give the engineer or some other D class new ways to slow them down? Also for hwguy, while 1.0 may have been a tad overkill, it's been better than just about anything since.

It feels very awkward making suggestions to help defense since the most obvious one by far is to undo almost all the changes that have accumulated over the years. From an AvD perspective, it's been one bad decision followed by more bad decisions, with only very slight quarter. I can't think of any release that has had stronger defense than 1.0, and even that was weaker against TFC.

squeek: GenghisTron proclaimed you as basically THE dev for FF now. Do you have an official statement regarding AvD balance? I really don't think you can claim that it's impossible to predict this stuff, it's been bad for about a year and a half with many revisions. Are there MAJOR balance changes coming to AvD or is it about as balanced as it's going to get?

EDIT: By AvD changes, I should clarify. I don't mean new maps, I mean gameplay changes that make most of the existing maps more balanced. I know you guys have tried with new spawn points and bucket caps for some maps, but it's really had a minimal difference compared to the O boosts.

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Old 03-05-2010, 06:20 PM   #75
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Do you have any ideas that would improve the defensive classes? Maybe you could post some suggestions.

As an example, there are people who would like the Engineer to be improved somehow and are not super happy about the EMP decrease.
Thank you for listening. As I said, I haven't played much lately and some of this may have been tried already, but this is what I can come up with off the top of my head:

Classes

The main problem out there is the extreme difference in skill between players on public servers. While I don't mind getting blown out of the sky by a pro soldier, or shut out by a skilled demo, I don't think one medic should be able to fly through a 3-4 man defence unharmed. At the moment, game impact vs skill is almost exponential for offence, while it's quite linear for defence.

Engineer - Should be allowed grenades if he has to babysit his SG. Alternative would be to beef/speed up the SG and give him less grenades since he could then use his shotgun better.

Heavy - Should be able to shut out weak classes at choke points if he is prepared for it, even if they're moving fast. If this means beefing up his gun then so be it - his armor could be weakened slightly as a trade off.

Sniper - Not sure if they can still tag enemies, but it gave a nice boost to defence.

Medic/Scout - How many concs can they carry? Should be max 2 - 1 to get in, 1 to get out, 0 to mess about with.

Pyro - While the flamethrower push is a neat feature, the pyro shouldnt be a part of the Apollo program. With the fairly tough armor, and the damage he can do, the pyro should move in a more predictable manner.

Other
AvD - It all comes down to whether you want to hammer the maps into the game or hammer the game into the maps. Or you could meet half way. One simple change would be to let defence spawn at a faster rate than offence. I'm sure that even a 3-5 second spawn delay for offence would help out quite a bit, since that's about the time it takes a good player to move across half the map in FF. Implement some class changes as well and we might end up with good AvD as well as fast, open CTF games.

Bunnyhopping, trimping etc - The current bunnyhopping mechanic is neat since, as opposed to TFC, a human person can actually perform it manually. The downside is that it's really only helping the highest skilled players, since it pretty much extends conc speed to infinity if you're good enough. Sure, everyone moves faster with bunnyhopping, but most classes don't see much of a gain from it. If it's possible to limit the amount of consecutive jumps, I'd say give it a try!
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Old 03-05-2010, 06:35 PM   #76
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a few things that could be done to help buff defense, specifically engi...


Increase the detection and firing range of the SGs by about 10% to 15%. not a whole long but could make a huge difference on some maps where putting up and SG is virtually useless because of easy access.

Increase SG push a little to people in the air.

Increase SG damage just a little, try maybe 5%.

Increase SG turning rate. Right now its pretty much a joke as almost any class can run around an SG and take very little to no damage because they are able to run around it.


Those are all suggestions on how the SG could be made better. Each one could be tired on their own or in some combo with each other.



Maybe try a new buildable for the engi, an overcharger. Can only be put onto a level 3 SG and only lasts 30 seconds. It doubles everything the SG can do. Firing rate is double, turn rate is double, lock on rate is double, detection range is doubled. Can not be sabotaged while its overcharged.

But after that 30 seconds, it needs to cool down for say 10 to 15 seconds and while its cooling down everything is halved. Firing rate is half normal, turning rate is half normal, lock on rate is half normal, detection range is half normal, can be sabotaged in 2/3s the normal time. During that cool down time another overcharger can not be put on it.

I'm not sure if the overcharger should be active as soon as its built or have a button/menu item to activate it. I see problems with that either way.

The overcharger would only be able to be built on your own sg, not on anyone elses and it has to be built either right on or beside the SG. It should require at least 160 cells, maybe even 180 or 200. Could even have it so that it requires that to build it an another 160 to 200 cells to power it up.

After its been used up its destroyed and has to be built again later but can only be built onto a properly working sg thats at full health. Once built onto the SG it can not be removed and the sg can't be dismantled.


If an sg with an overcharger on it (thats not active) is self destructed it does damage to everyone in the area no matter what team they are on and the blast area is double what it is normally. Also if the sg is sabotaged with an overcharger on it (thats not active) the overcharger will activate and the SG will go nuts like usual after its been sabotaged but will be overcharged but kill itself in half the time. This is of course if the overcharger is activated by a button instead of active as soon as its built.

Its an idea, not a great one but its an idea. Maybe it can be flashed out a little or just scrapped.
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Old 03-05-2010, 10:42 PM   #77
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I'm honestly having difficulties remembering how TFC's AvD played out on WON, since steam has been around long enough for me to consider Steam-TFC the norm for TFC.

But for me on AvD, teleporters played a huge impact, and I think that's one reason O dominates on almost every AvD style map in FF.

In TFC, the offense had to grind past choke points, push and push and push, all in hopes of someone either getting lucky or someone who's really talented could slip behind the front lines of the choke point to take out the sg's/teleporters. And this was difficult because if you took down a front line defender he teleported right back into action, so a lucky kill here or there didn't accomplish anything, you had to take down the sg's. In FF all you have to do is kill the front line D and you're set to move on in the map right away, there's no real grind or push needed, and any person skilled or not can accomplish this eventually. Which makes maps like dustbowl just suck.

To win on dustbowl in FF red has to be stacked without a doubt, wherease because of the teleporters in TFC, skill could be equal and the outcome could go either way. Balance the skill equally out amung both teams in FF's dustbowl and offense will win everytime.

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Old 03-05-2010, 10:52 PM   #78
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squeek: GenghisTron proclaimed you as basically THE dev for FF now. Do you have an official statement regarding AvD balance? I really don't think you can claim that it's impossible to predict this stuff, it's been bad for about a year and a half with many revisions. Are there MAJOR balance changes coming to AvD or is it about as balanced as it's going to get?

EDIT: By AvD changes, I should clarify. I don't mean new maps, I mean gameplay changes that make most of the existing maps more balanced. I know you guys have tried with new spawn points and bucket caps for some maps, but it's really had a minimal difference compared to the O boosts.
Well, I can tell you the dev team doesn't really work like that. It's very much a collaborative effort. But, I can say there are (pending testing) major changes coming to the game as a whole. I can also say that the beta tests on AvD maps have come out fairly balanced, especially in 2.4 testing (7v7 dustbowl and so on always seems to go down to the final minute(s)). I know beta tests are probably not indicative of public play, but AvD is not exactly unbalanced across the board. It's probably not as clear cut as "offense is too strong", but it might be.

As for ghoti, almost all your concerns have been addressed. I'll go through them 1 by 1, though.
  • Engineer - Should be allowed grenades if he has to babysit his SG. Alternative would be to beef/speed up the SG and give him less grenades since he could then use his shotgun better.
    • This is a common complaint, and one that is being looked at. I don't think it's as easy as "make the SG stronger", though.
  • Heavy - Should be able to shut out weak classes at choke points if he is prepared for it, even if they're moving fast. If this means beefing up his gun then so be it - his armor could be weakened slightly as a trade off.
    • The HW slows people down in the air when he hits them (from any angle). This was added to all damage in 2.4: "Getting damaged slows you down if you're above runspeed".
  • Sniper - Not sure if they can still tag enemies, but it gave a nice boost to defence.
    • Radio tagging is still in.
  • Medic/Scout - How many concs can they carry? Should be max 2 - 1 to get in, 1 to get out, 0 to mess about with.
    • Each have a max of 3. Medic starts with 2, and the scout starts with 3. Most AvD maps have concs disabled (or make you pick them up from grenade packs) anyway, though.
  • Pyro - While the flamethrower push is a neat feature, the pyro shouldnt be a part of the Apollo program. With the fairly tough armor, and the damage he can do, the pyro should move in a more predictable manner.
    • Changes to the pyro are inevitable.
  • Bunnyhopping, trimping etc - The current bunnyhopping mechanic is neat since, as opposed to TFC, a human person can actually perform it manually. The downside is that it's really only helping the highest skilled players, since it pretty much extends conc speed to infinity if you're good enough. Sure, everyone moves faster with bunnyhopping, but most classes don't see much of a gain from it. If it's possible to limit the amount of consecutive jumps, I'd say give it a try!
    • You said you have played every patch, but surely you noticed that in 2.1 a skim cap was added. You can read about it here.
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Old 03-06-2010, 12:35 AM   #79
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be_: At the risk of stating the obvious, what's the problem with making the game more like TFC?
I say nothing. Perhaps I am in the minority, I don't know. But I wonder why some people seem to be on a conquest to spread the word of "This is not TFC" Have you played TFC and FF? Look at the two! But I don't want to argue with them. IMO this is (or was) a better version of TFC. It was everything that I loved about TFC, plus improvements in pretty much every way possible. I think it could have been worthy of the name TFC: Source or maybe even TFC 2. That is a compliment btw people.

This game has potential to be seriously badass. I think it is great already, but agree that as of late, certain defensive classes seem to have become weaker.

In TFC, I knew that as a moderately skilled medic, I would still fear the SG. If that thing is in a good position, then it's my speed and weapons vs. its lock-on time, push back, and rockets. And if the engi is around and can DM, then there is a lot of potential of being screwed.

In FF, I see a sentry and I don't feel that tension anymore. Most of the time now, a sentry is a nuisance.

Simlar feeling with an HW. Heavy was the class that could piss people off to the point of them being called the noob class. If he can see you for enough seconds, he will outlast you in armor with whatever you shoot and just stand there tearing your shit up. It's the class I used to get every buddy of mine into TFC with. Easy to start and you could feel the power. What's it considered now? Slowing down people in the air is a nice idea, but I wonder if that would help when scout/med just conc by him. What about the offensive solly, pyro, or demo? Air-speed decrease probably doesn't hurt much for them, since they're not trying to get passed heavy, but fighting him. Maybe push back would be better in that case, or like suggested, increased power.

I'm glad you guys are saying this because you probably speak for the greater half of potential players who don't play for reasons now being pointed out. I stopped playing for a while for similar reasons and came back with the latest patch to like 5 people on most of the time.

But hey, supposedly there's big changes coming now so stay tuned
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Old 03-06-2010, 12:36 AM   #80
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Originally Posted by squeek. View Post
(...)almost all your concerns have been addressed. I'll go through them 1 by 1, though(...)
Thank you for that, I actually wasn't aware of the skim cap but I like the idea. After reading Mushy's post, and the response it got, I'll stick around and look out for the next patch! I'll still pass on 2.41, though, as it seems to have a bit too much of the same old conc grinding seen in previous versions.

Keep up the good work, there are quite a few people out there keeping an eye on the progress, hoping that FF will one day live up to its true potential.
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