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Old 03-11-2010, 02:42 AM   #101
chilledsanity
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronzui
I feel the HW is pretty dam close to being just right...
He's a LOT less effective now than TFC and early FF, and offense has only gotten better. I guess you're a fan of weak defense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronzui
The NG needs the same amount of health and armor as other classes such as the spy. As far as the SG its all about placement and you have to have a little help, maybe just a small increment of push and damage but not much I dont feel.
Considering how it's a unit that can't move and can't protect the engineer from splash damage, why should it be as weak as mobile classes? Also why should it take multiple team members to keep one unit alive? In TFC it took either clever tactics or overwhelming force to take out an sg with just the engineer repairing it. In a 1v1 fight of a class v. a maintained sg, the attacker would usually lose. In FF, almost all the classes can take out a maintained sg in a 1v1 fight. Sure, you can argue this encourages more of a team effort now, but that simply doesn't happen in pub play and it's weakened defense as a whole.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronzui
Also what do peeps think about an SG that performs 4% to 6% better if the NG is within 20 feet of it and keeps it at full health and ammo? I think that would be a good incentive for the offy Ng to stay at home...just an idea
Not a bad idea in itself, except the sg has been gimped hard as it is. It needs multiple boosts to achieve balance outside of pickups, this is only an icing on the cake thing.
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Old 03-11-2010, 11:28 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronzui View Post
I feel the HW is pretty dam close to being just right...maybe just a tad give give the ability to do more damage at close range.
The NG needs the same amount of health and armor as other classes such as the spy. As far as the SG its all about placement and you have to have a little help, maybe just a small increment of push and damage but not much I dont feel.
Also what do peeps think about an SG that performs 4% to 6% better if the NG is within 20 feet of it and keeps it at full health and ammo? I think that would be a good incentive for the offy Ng to stay at home...just an idea
I like the HW in FF. I just wish the model made him fatter. It's hard to call him Fatty any more.

Great suggestions to balance the lowly Engi. If the Engi had the same health and armor as the spy and the Sentry Gun had some more Push/Damage that would help balance. You might even see some more Engineers.

I'd rather see the SG get better performance when at 100% health and have it's performace erode as it is damaged. The SG would only do 25% damage when it is at 25% health. That would certainly keep me near my gun.
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Old 03-11-2010, 03:36 PM   #103
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U guys keep sayng how weak sg s are, but thats not true, in pub servers i saw like 5 sgs defending one base, wich broke completely the game, cuse its really hardcore to get to the flag, so u cant get to the flag, it turns to midmap dm. If u had 5 soldiers instead would be a lot easier to get to it, and the majority of ngs i see around just build sgs and then go chase some one lol.
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Old 03-11-2010, 03:45 PM   #104
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A demoman using a scout jump pad can easily take out 2-3 sgs in one try though.
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Old 03-11-2010, 07:56 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by zE View Post
U guys keep sayng how weak sg s are, but thats not true, in pub servers i saw like 5 sgs defending one base, wich broke completely the game, cuse its really hardcore to get to the flag, so u cant get to the flag, it turns to midmap dm. If u had 5 soldiers instead would be a lot easier to get to it, and the majority of ngs i see around just build sgs and then go chase some one lol.

Yes when you have 5 sgs with 5 engies running around things can be defended better. Specially if you have them spread out. 3 or 4 sgs in aardvark can make it hard to get in and out. 1 on bridge by button, 1 on flag, 1 on the ledge with the windows and one on the ledge in front of the flag. Adding a 5th by the lasers and it can virtually lock down everything, specially if you have engies that stay near their SGs.


But which map was it, I've seen maps where no matter how many SGs you have a couple of scouts or medics can get in and out no problem because they either zip past the sgs or they nail gun them to death or some combo of the 2.

Congestous for example. There is no way to protect the flag specially with just sgs because they turn slow, don't kill fast and don't have that good of a range. You have to have at least 3 active people with at least 2 sgs to even think about properly protecting the flag just because of all the ways in. Then if the other team has even one decent conc jumper its going to be a fight to keep the flag in the flag room.


And then there is the fact that most times there are not 5 engies, there might be 1 or 2. And even if you do have 5 engies the chance that you will have them all build sgs or even just build sgs in the needed places is small. Many times there is going to be at least 1 or 2 noobs who puts the gun outside, or in an area where its of no use, or don't build any at all and no matter if you ask them nicely or yell at them they don't listen.


Should a single sg all alone be able to hold off a mass of people? No, but a single sg with an engi near by should at least be able to stop a scout from just flying past, and should be able to at least slow down a scout and medic.

As they are right now in many maps scouts are just zipping past sgs. And no matter how many people there are there helping on some maps there is just no way to stop someone who is half decent at concing because, the heavy doesn't do enough damage fast enough, the soldiers rockets just don't move that fast, pyro doesn't have a far reach and if the person is moving fast with a conc they are not in the area long enough to get a long burn. SGs are pretty much a joke unless there is a whole bunch of them with engies near, snipers usually aren't in the area to pick them off though they have to be quick enough to hit them, medics, spies and scouts can't do anything.

Now get 1 or 2 people who are really good at concing and you either have to have your whole team defending, which makes them turtle in which case virtually no capping is going on. Or your team mostly gives up on trying to defend and looses badly because the other team is just running away with your flag due to only needing 1 or 2 people to go and get the flag.



As a demo I have taken out a bunch of SGs with players at once. As a spy I have killed 3 and 4 sgs in one run. 2 grenades to 1 sg, 2 to another, nail gun to another 1 or 2. As many classes I have been able to take out an sg close up or just run past them or around them taking little to no damage.

I've seen 2 or 3 people come in and just kill all the sgs in the area in seconds with nail guns from just out of the guns detection range. Heck I have done it a few times myself.
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Old 03-11-2010, 09:02 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zE
U guys keep sayng how weak sg s are, but thats not true, in pub servers i saw like 5 sgs defending one base, wich broke completely the game, cuse its really hardcore to get to the flag, so u cant get to the flag, it turns to midmap dm. If u had 5 soldiers instead would be a lot easier to get to it, and the majority of ngs i see around just build sgs and then go chase some one lol.

What class were you playing when this happened? It makes a big difference. While it's only happened once, I actually have killed 5 sg's on one life before as a soldier. Even then, I can usually take out 2-3 maintained without too much hassle. Also you say there were 5 engineers running around who don't maintain their sg's? That's a spy's paradise, seriously. I wasn't in the game you're describing, but it sounds like defense could have been pretty easily toppled if a good O player knew what he was doing.

Your complaint about this encouraging midyard dm'ing may be true, my balance concerns lie more with AvD, where that's not an issue. By giving O so many boosts it destroys the game mode.

To be clear, I have NO problem with an sg getting stomped on that's not maintained, that's how it should be. The problem is with reduced push, damage, and no splash protection, a good O player will take out or whizz by an sg every time.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwarsbane
Should a single sg all alone be able to hold off a mass of people? No, but a single sg with an engi near by should at least be able to stop a scout from just flying past, and should be able to at least slow down a scout and medic.
See I would go a step further. I think if your sg is positioned well, it should SHRED a scout or medic unless it's distracted by another target. It should take a LOT of skill on the part of a medic to take out an sg, not be commonplace. Unless the O player has a plan to outmaneuver it, overpower it, or has O backup, I feel a maintained sg should win almost every 1v1 encounter. In TFC you really couldn't "brave" the sg's to take them out. It pushed your ass way back and it did a lot of damage, usually killing you. You couldn't afford to be stupid, you had to really use some tactics when planning your approach. Not so in FF.

What do people think of this:

Since FF has great aiming controls for the gun, why not bring the SG power up to 1.0 / TFC levels, but make it MUCH more dependent on where you aim it? So if a target turns the corner the sg is facing, he's fucked (unless he's doing a suicide run as a demo with mirvs or something). If he comes at the gun from 90 degrees, he has MUCH more time to manuever than he would normally. I think this would allow good players to really defend more and would make placement of the SG much more crucial.
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Old 04-02-2010, 09:12 AM   #107
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SG's are somewhat map dependent.

On maps like Flow_b2 SG's are totally broken since the way the flag room is set up they can be easily placed in position safe from nails + grenades while still being poised to waste anyone trying to get the flag.

On Maps like aardvark SG's fail if just one person knows what they are doing due to the open-ness of the flag room. Playing spy I can easily get rid of them.

Last edited by VentuSag3; 04-02-2010 at 09:13 AM.
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Old 04-06-2010, 01:35 AM   #108
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VentuSag3: I'm rusty on flow_b2, but I'm guessing this is only a problem for light O classes, like scout and medic. I can't think of many maps at all where the sg isn't highly vulnerable to either a soldier, demoman, or sniper. While those aren't the classes of choice for pickup CTF, they're very commonplace in AvD.
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