11-20-2008, 04:12 AM | #41 | |
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A large part of AVD issues revolve around the jump pad. Remove the jump pad and AVD becomes much more doable on defense. That thing really caused a lot more problems than it fixed =\.
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11-20-2008, 04:37 AM | #42 |
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I'd say the jumppad absolutely devastated cornfield, as did pyro jumping (don't get me wrong, I like both of those things). It had less of an impact on dustbowl though. Either way, FF has seen a lot of changes slanted towards offense. The new hwguy is a step in the right direction for helping D, but they definitely need some more help.
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11-20-2008, 04:47 AM | #43 |
Altitude Junkie
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I'd like to take this moment to add once again that:
1) Every map is different and different classes behave differently on different maps....go figure. It's all about how to play a map. Some are high scoring fast paced affairs, and some are not. It would virtually impossible to balance every map to every class so that they all contain no clear area where one class had an advantage. 2) Altering the abilities of a particular class only affects the scoring balance of OvD or Hunted maps, and not ones where the they switch if all the cap points are taken. Class balance is equal given an equal chance at the objective for either team even if a particular class is more advantageous to play on a certain map. The thing about this Mod is that the changes they make to the classes are based on clan play and not the pubbers. If the Modders feel that the changes they make help clan play, then I say so be it. The pub play will adapt as it needs to, and I still get killed by Engys and their guns plenty enough to not give a rat's ass about SG strength. I would also like to hear less bitching about Congestus being broken. It's a high scoring map.....that's it. Albeit, if you don't have anybody on your team that's good at concing you will lose.....but that's just too bad for your team. Every CTF map ever made is all about capping more than the other team, and if you can't keep up, it's not the map's fault.
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11-20-2008, 04:48 AM | #44 | |
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11-20-2008, 05:29 AM | #45 |
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Ha, I just pulled congestus out of a hat as an example, I didn't realize it had problems.
Peon: Of course there are differences in the levels. Except like you said, some maps are fast, others are not. Dustbowl is a long game of attrition that's meant to last in the neighborhood of 20+ minutes. The existing changes have turned it into a 5-10 minute capfest. And like you said, that's it, no sides reset, the map's over, it's turned into one of my favorite maps to a rather unsatisfying experience. |
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11-20-2008, 05:55 AM | #46 |
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Well guys, I dunno. I thought the problems with the engy would have been clear as day to everyone, but looks like that's a no. You guys do sound obsessed with build times rather than these other huge problems, but whatever. Some of you get what I'm talking about, but not the people in charge I'm guessing.
I guess you answered my question bout how to keep the sg alive. Basically you don't, unless your whole team pitches in. I don't understand why the whole team should have to support the engy when none of the other classes are that way. I thought it was the other way around, the engy's supposed to support his team, but instead he's the one who needs a babysitter. It all sounds backwards to me, but if that's what you guys want for clanning, then I guess good luck with that. I'll check back for 2.2 to see if engy's been fixed at all, but if the devs are trying to keep the sg so weak then I'm probably gonna bail, cuz its just not as much fun as other TF games then. Anyway, good luck with the mod, its seriously awesome in almost every other way, that's why I'm bummed that this probably isn't gonna be fixed. |
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11-20-2008, 06:14 AM | #47 | |
Stuff Do-er
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11-20-2008, 05:43 PM | #48 |
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splurbp: If you want a map where the sg can actually hold its own in pubs, try ff_vertigo. Get enough people in there and it's hell getting through to the sg. For everything else though, things do not bode well.
squeek: I'd call it situational nerfing, since it's skewed hard in pubs, but ph balanced for league play apparently. |
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11-20-2008, 08:37 PM | #49 | |
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some things were right, most things were wrong with the changes. most the active community that are non-leaguers/beta will agree. |
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11-21-2008, 12:01 AM | #50 | |||||
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Splurbp, the SG in 2.1 was balanced so you could leave it and let it die, and quickly rebuild another one in a different place. It was designed to stop the 2.0 "build in one place and +attack1 behind it and rack up 50 kills". (if you booted FF and expected free frags for sitting behind a SG, sorry!)
Admittedly though, it's not perfect right now, and we will be changing the engineer more after this next patch is out. Particularly the frustration of relying on other players to defend your SG, but being unable to leave your SG to defend it yourself. Also, it is designed to stop fast classes, scout, medic and pyro. If the other team is playing heavier classes on offense, then you should be playing a different class (sniper, pyro, spy, soldier are all good vs heavy classes). It is designed to mop up the remainder of an attack force, not be at the forefront of a defensive line. Quote:
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P.S. If you could give examples of positions in certain maps you've played where you think your SG should have been doing better than it has, i'd be interested to hear. We lack accurate feedback from the regular public players. |
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11-21-2008, 12:06 AM | #51 | |
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11-21-2008, 12:17 AM | #52 |
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Well, Yes I think we can. I just need to apply it properly. later If I have more time I can .
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11-21-2008, 12:37 AM | #53 |
A Very Sound Guy!
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it needs the CP hold thing from CZ2 on each point imo \o/
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11-21-2008, 04:37 AM | #54 | |
Stuff Do-er
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#FF.Pickup ¤ Fortress-Forever pickups My Non-official Maps Released FF_DM_Squeek - FF_2Mesa3_Classic - FF_Siege_Classic Beta FF_Myth - FF_Redlight_Greenlight Sick of the people on the internet, always moanin'. They just moan. - Karl Pilkington |
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11-21-2008, 09:55 AM | #55 | |
Interzone technican
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11-21-2008, 10:10 AM | #56 |
A Very Sound Guy!
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yeah, sorry. i spend most of my time over in ubuntu these days, and FF for some reason crashes at the menu
and when i do get FF time in, its usually CTF |
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11-21-2008, 12:10 PM | #57 | |
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openfire resup to building: 5 seconds. Medic to flag room: 9-12 seconds aardvark resup to building: 5 seconds. Medic to flag room: 11 seconds And if you already have a dispenser / discarded bags you can get level 2 instantly. So yes. I have played my own game. Maybe the only map you've played is 2fort? |
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11-21-2008, 12:33 PM | #58 | ||||||
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dustbowl: Anywhere near the gates (all 3). These don't have a reputation of staying up for very long anyway, but it's FAST now. It barely even slows down the enemy. Also near cap for cap 2 and 3 (unless its hidden out of the way for 3). They just go down so damn fast. Also I'd like to add that while the ones around cap 1 stay up reasonably well, they don't do their job. Enemies can make decent progress on the flag before dying even with 3+ sg's that wouldn't have been possible before (it would have taken some tactics). It's the lack of push that doesn't deter enemies from straight-lining it. cornfield: Behind the tow truck near the 3rd cap. In older version of FF I could keep this up for a fair while. Now it goes down very fast. Same deal for the corner next to the wall by the bridge on cap 4. openfire: pretty much anywhere congestus: pretty much anywhere epicenter: On the crates after the main crossover area. An elevated sentry here used to hold its own for a little bit, not much at all now. aardvark: on top of the 2 catwalks when you come up the ramp, and the raised platform opposite the flag. Enemies basically run up to them and start blasting away rather than getting pushed back. anticitizen: I don't have much comparison since this came out in 2.1, but about the only effective area is at the end of cap 2 since everyone is drained by that point anyway. They go down fast for Caps 1 and 3 (3 because of the range) and again, for Cap 1, they don't do their job of stopping the enemy from capping. |
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11-21-2008, 12:51 PM | #59 | |
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The biggest issue with the FF SG, besides it being backwards to how it should be, is that the tracking speed and time it takes to attack the enemy are a nearly completely redundant feature. I don't need accurate pointing when the thing turns fairly fast, but the whole situation is tits up when there are various situations where an SG will not fire on an enemy despite being able to see him. Part of the deal in TFC was that you had to aim your gun in the direction you wanted it to shoot and it had a hard time not shooting enemies that weren't close its LOS. Now, due to how long it takes for the SG to start shooting, aiming it is almost redundant. It's either going to shoot and hit the, or spend forever attempting to track and shoot at the enemy. Of course, when you have people protecting your gun and disrupting enemy movement, it's going to make the gun able to do its job. IMHO the best solution to this issue is to revert to TFC style turret turn speed while also reverting back to the instant track of the TFC SG. This way, aiming is an important part of it, it will start shooting enemies once it tracks them (or very very shortly after), and if an enemy gets past it from a good conc, it's game over. Mainly I hate hate hate hate hate having to babysit someone elses gun in competitive play when I'm not even that damned class.
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11-21-2008, 01:49 PM | #60 | |
Interzone technican
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