How do devs balance this game?

[caesium]

segundo, i still don't really understand. the primary weapon IS the strongest.

if the problem is that these "auxilary" weapons, which you really shouldn't be trying to use in most situations anyway, are cluttering up the game and making it too complex for new players to easily select the right weapon for the situation, then surely my suggestion of a good default config with a "switch between your best 2 weapons" button would solve this?

to explain exactly what i mean, my cfg uses right mouse button to toggle between:

scout: nailgun / small shotty.
sniper: sniper-rifle / auto-rifle.
sol: rckts / ssg.
demo: blue pipes / yellow pipes.
medic: nailgun / ssg.
hw: AC / ssg.
pyro: rckts / IC.
spy: knife / ssg.
engy: spanner / ssg.

the beauty of a 2 best weapon toggle system like this is that (if we forget about the auxilary weapons for now, because they are definitely not an essential part of being able to learn and enjoy the game) if you've got the "wrong" weapon selected for the situation all you ever have to do is press right mouse button... simple!

have i still misunderstood? even if i have, what does everyone else think about putting a good 2 best weapon toggle system and better gren keys in the default cfg? i think it's really important for someone new to the game to be able to play it properly without having to edit configs.

[Credge]

The problem with that is not everybody likes the same setup. For example, my friends all use the hold-down grenade style while I use the two-tap method. To them, the two-tap just doesn't make sense. To me, it does.

Instead of just making the "default CFG" a certain way that some of us may like, why not give them options of two or three CFG's.

[Firefox11]

Originally Posted by Segundo

to firefox: yeah shotgun kills, but i am betting you, you never tried using it as your only weapon, have fun with that. so do crowbars but you dont see people toting the crowbar. effectivly each class has only one or two weapons, primary, and super shotgun.

Of course I never tried using it as the only weapon. Same applies with every other class in the game: if you only use one weapon, you are doing it wrong. I would say I use 35% the flamer, 35% the IC, 20% the shotty and 10% the crowbar, but everyone plays however they want.

Probably classes like Soldier and HW don't really need the single shotty, but Demomen and Pyros do not have the Super shotgun because they don't need it due to their nature (high damage at close range weapons). And this is why they need the single shotgun, to have a chance to damage fleeing targets. Trying to hit someone far away with the IC relies extremely on luck, and the pipes can't get to someone running away.

As for the weapon swap suggestion, I guess it's up to everyone. I for one know that Mouse2 as Soldier swaps between RPG and SShotty, but I'm used to pressing the numbers of each weapon or even Q (LastInv or however it's the name). However, I do use M2 as Pyro to swap between IC and flamer =O! Also, classes that have the Specials binded to M2 would need yet another button to use their ability, and not everyone has 3+ button mouse.

[Segundo]

Originally Posted by Firefox11

As for the weapon swap suggestion, I guess it's up to everyone. I for one know that Mouse2 as Soldier swaps between RPG and SShotty, but I'm used to pressing the numbers of each weapon or even Q (LastInv or however it's the name). However, I do use M2 as Pyro to swap between IC and flamer =O! Also, classes that have the Specials binded to M2 would need yet another button to use their ability, and not everyone has 3+ button mouse.

we need training mode that teaches the keys.

[caesium]

Originally Posted by Segundo

we need training mode that teaches the keys.

yes

i'm not sure what the status of the official training stuff is atm, but we really need a good one for teaching all the basic class/movement skills. perhaps this is something that community mappers could contribute to and help out with?

[R22B]

Yesterday, I played an AvD map where every single player on the defending team was a heavy weapons guy. Yes, it was madness. Nothing like 10 or so fatties popping up a tent and eating weenies over the camp fire right in front of your spawn.

The lag was nothing short of OMGWTFBBQWEENIES. Eventually, somehow, a guy with the flag made it past (there was no defense past them and capped).

Obviously, this is a case that probably never came up during beta testing and it was an absurd balance issue. I just became a demo man and just threw my lonely grenade and pipe bombs. The medics/scouts/everyone else just was getting sawed in half by the amount of bullets. Oh well.

It was funny at the time, it just goes to show, no matter how much testing or planning, every scenario can’t be thought of and planned for.

(but really, that many heavies firing pretty much non-stop, the lag was horrible)

[MonoXideAtWork]

Our beta team is quite small, so in order to test full game AvD, we borrow a bunch of kids fromt he special ed class of the local highschool. We weren't able to uncover any particular balance issues, but thats how we settled on the particular kill beep, it made our testers giggle.

[Credge]

FYI: We tested multiple heavies in a similar fashion. The lag is an understandable by product of how the class operates. Because it's not a typical scenario, it's not a worry. It becomes a worry when it becomes a typical scenario.

It's no different than everyone spawning as demoman and spamming blues and MIRVs.

[Segundo]

Originally Posted by caesium

yes

i'm not sure what the status of the official training stuff is atm, but we really need a good one for teaching all the basic class/movement skills. perhaps this is something that community mappers could contribute to and help out with?

you know what might help? a class selection screen with weapons on the left right side. like... hmmm ill have to whip up a photoshop image... but to give you an idea... use the bordering like the team selection menu has, have the class selection on the left, the rotating class model in the middle, and then the weapons on the right, with labeling like MAIN WEAPON, SECONDARY, DEPLOYABLE, MELEE. and make the primary weapon larger than the others to asthetically get across that its the best weapon. or highlight it with an aura. it could definitly get more complex with the class selection screen, but just for getting the idea of "what weapon is the strongest / main"

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Segundo

you know what might help? a class selection screen with weapons on the left right side. like... hmmm ill have to whip up a photoshop image... but to give you an idea... use the bordering like the team selection menu has, have the class selection on the left, the rotating class model in the middle, and then the weapons on the right, with labeling like MAIN WEAPON, SECONDARY, DEPLOYABLE, MELEE. and make the primary weapon larger than the others to asthetically get across that its the best weapon. or highlight it with an aura. it could definitly get more complex with the class selection screen, but just for getting the idea of "what weapon is the strongest / main"

We have plans for improving all facets of the class/team selection screens. It's only a matter of time.

[Toastie]

Originally Posted by Demasu

Is it really so hard for you to construct your ideas into a helpful format instead of an insulting one?

As a beta tester, you've gotta be a little more professional. I mean mixer is a dumbass, but he is obviously your average joe pubber, and he represents a demographic that you want to reach.

Sure he formed a terrible post, but how does it help you to say what you say as if you're scolding him? When i read his post I get a frustrated pubber that is used to other games out there, and isnt digging the rediculous speed that exists in FF. I dont agree with him personally, but alot of your average pubbers share his sentiment.

I could be wrong, and he could be an amazing clan player or something, though i doubt it, but he is at least that average pubber or a lower level guy who plays for fun. But again, this is a demographic you wanna reach.

[Demasu]

Originally Posted by Toastie

As a beta tester, you've gotta be a little more professional. I mean mixer is a dumbass, but he is obviously your average joe pubber, and he represents a demographic that you want to reach.

Sure he formed a terrible post, but how does it help you to say what you say as if you're scolding him? When i read his post I get a frustrated pubber that is used to other games out there, and isnt digging the rediculous speed that exists in FF. I dont agree with him personally, but alot of your average pubbers share his sentiment.

I could be wrong, and he could be an amazing clan player or something, though i doubt it, but he is at least that average pubber or a lower level guy who plays for fun. But again, this is a demographic you wanna reach.

I might have been more inclined to respond incredibly politely if it hadn't sounded like he was just insulting everything and not giving anything that I could construct into ideas for improvement. Saying "You suck and you should eat shit(I know it's not what he really said, but this is an example)," is a lot less helpful than, "I think you suck but this is what I think you could do to help you suck less." Hell, even, "You suck and you should eat shit, but here is what I think could make you suck less," would be better than the first example. Could I have been nicer? Probably. Would it have helped? Probably not. But this isn't the place to discuss this shit, it's a place to find out how the devs balance this game.

[Toastie]

it just looks bad. New guy glances at these posts and sees a beta tester responding that way to a person he's probably going to be inclined to agree with after playing the game from his own POV... is going to walk away and play COD4 or something

From my own impression of the game and without any knowledge of whats on the inside of the FF team's motives... I wouldve gone this route..

Originally Posted by mixer

well, they just dont do it ... it simple as that.
They've chosen the soldier to be ridiculously overpowered as a reaction to the far to fast conc-classes (and because they like to own everyone playing that class) and the rest has to remain 2nd-rate classes ...
Now they are doctering on that mess ... the solution would be easy:
detune conc-classes -> no handheld-concjumps, larger turn-raduis when on high-speed ... then that overpowerd soly wouldnt be needed anymore, so detune him, bring it on line with the other classes and then the whining about the weak sentry would cease as well ...
but no, they want their need-for-speed,as slippery as an eel, gameplay on such exciting (cough) maps like plasma_b1 so they can enjoy their own l33tness over and over again in pickups so they can quickly forget about the mess on the public-servers ...

All the classes have been sped up a bit as far as speed is concerned. In contrast to TFC, the only change to soldier has been the speed of the rockets, which have been increased(about 30% increase or so?) The vision for this game was to provide a faster paced game than the previous TF game in hopes that it would revive more exciting gameplay for the old and new.

The idea is that you need to select the best combination of classes while selecting the best positions for these classes to counter what the other team is doing. For example if you're facing an offense running 2 scouts, medic, and a spy. You will not want to run a 4 SG defense. The spy would move the flag to a spot the sgs cant see, and the scouts will take that flag. You would probably run an Engy/Demo/Soldier/HW setup to combat that particular offense. There is no particular class that will overpower another alone, its all within the person that plays these classes... In theory they are all checked by another, and in practice it just depends on who plays them

As for as the mess on pubs servers... be specific because it is not clear what your argument is there

[Ihmhi]

It might relect poorly on the devs and testers, but to be fair some of us are jerks (myself included)!

I don't think I've had a single conversation with Iggy without him calling me something like Chubby Checker and me calling him a pasty honky.

[yfni&len]

Originally Posted by caesium

when playing FF now i get that buz-feeling that i last felt back when the CS beta was first released - i'm not trying to compare the two, i'm just saying i personally haven't felt that spark since then

You mean when you couldn't distinguish T from CT and the only map available was a very dark mansion? hope not