Anybody in networking here?

[battery]

The main goal of college, Circuitous, is actually not teaching just technical knowledge. Any technical knowledge you learn in college would be quite superficial. The real objective of going thru college is to be exposed to many different field in a short amount of time. This way, students get trained in doing critical thinking, being open-minded, developing strategies in learning unfamiliar concepts, and describing ideas to audience with various background. In short, one goes thru college not to become a tech-savvy person. Rather, college trains students in philosophy, or the correct principles in reasoning.

A fresh college grad is not as knowledgeable as someone with a technical certification. He will not be as productive as the technical person for the next couple years. Still, employers prefer to hire the college grad. Why? Because that college grad is more likely to become a competent manager in the future. As you move up in the hierarchy, you won't be relying on personal knowledge anymore. Instead, you will depend on the technical people for technical advices. At that point, you will need the skills you developed in college to make correct decisions. This is when general education really pays off.

Circuitous, I am not doubting your smartness. But do you agree with me that you can train yourself of become even smarter? Would you agree that you can be trained to become even smarter in many different areas? Don't limit your mind to what you think you are capable of. You can better than that.
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Butane vaporizers

[Circuitous]

I think you completely failed to grasp what I'm talking about.

Suffice it to say: college won't give me anything I don't already have.

That's the plain and simple of it.

[battery]

That's only your current belief. Perhaps you should do some research and survey to confirm that belief?

[Circuitous]

Dude.. yes. Why in the fuck do you keep pursuing this? Do you honestly think you have a chance at convincing me that college is worth a shit if college itself couldn't?

[battery]

When I got my first job I thought the time and money I spent in college was a waste. It wasn't until I switch field did I realize college was useful.
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Herbal Vaporizers

[Innoc]

Originally Posted by Circuitous

Certs first degree later, degree first certs later?

Degree and certs simultaneously?

I don't think that the order of the certs and degree matters in terms of finding work at the lower levels. You should, however, consider that if you leave college now (and that seems likely given what you've expressed) there is a good chance you will not ever go back.

I am, presently, returning to college. My degree is not far off but it was never completed. My story is similar to yours in some ways. I was working 3 jobs and carrying a load of 18 credits. I had some really horrible professors back to back in the midst of that stress and I burned myself out. I left before my degree was complete. Since that time I have worked up to holding the positions of CFO and CIO and held those for many years. My experience and abilities are VERY broad. I almost completely self taught aside from my military training and I am extremely intelligent. That said, the fact that I cannot check off "BS" on the online job opening submissions means that my application receives no further consideration on many openings.

Right now that may not be a big deal since you're so worn out with general ed requirements. However, you may come to regret that decision years later if you don't tough it out and obtain your degree. Doing it later in life is MUCH harder as your commitments and obligations are sure to be much greater than they are now. If I had known then what I know now I would have taken much lighter credit loads for a few semesters and changed things up some...but I would have persevered.

[Mooga]

All college is, is earning a piece of paper. That's the truth.
I would say it worth it, even after all the dull classes.

[Circuitous]

I'm going back to class, guys. That's not the issue. I'm just wondering if the certs are more valuable overall or what.

So far it seems not, so schoolin' it is.

[Mooga]

Your better off with a degree then just certs. My question is if they are needed WITH a degree...

[battery]

A degree gives partial qualification to any field and any industry you may enter in your life. I am in no position to plan your future, but my guess is, you won't stay in computer technology field forever. A degree confers values beyond just specialized knowledge and chance of being hired as IT.
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Suzuki boulevard s50 specifications

[DarkeN_HellspawN]

College is awesome but I would never hire someone who had a general basis and not specilized in a particular field. If someone walked in for a networking position with a general college degree I would explain to him "Thanks for wasting my time". You wont even get past HR without the proper credentials. Remember..........at a corporate level you go through a process where HR reveiws the apps first usally. If you have general based with no studies towards the position you get filed and thats it. Period. No one cares if you went through the process of learning to learn if you dont have the skills needed. A general college education is a waste of money and time. If you are going to go through the motions make sure it is worth your time and money. I know people who spent 80,000 dollars at a good four year school to major in landscaping design. Guess what. WASTE OF F'CKING MONEY and now they are still looking for a landscape design position. hmmmmmmmmmmmm.......lets see. I can pay an illegal immigrant $50-75.00 bucks a day or pay someone $60,000 a year to put in bushes, pavers and mow. You do the math.

dh

[Dr.Satan]

holy crap...this is like the 6th thing DH has said that I actually agree with...I do believe the world is coming to an end!

[battery]

Originally Posted by DarkeN_HellspawN

College is awesome but I would never hire someone who had a general basis and not specilized in a particular field. If someone walked in for a networking position with a general college degree I would explain to him "Thanks for wasting my time". You wont even get past HR without the proper credentials. Remember..........at a corporate level you go through a process where HR reveiws the apps first usally. If you have general based with no studies towards the position you get filed and thats it. Period. No one cares if you went through the process of learning to learn if you dont have the skills needed. A general college education is a waste of money and time. If you are going to go through the motions make sure it is worth your time and money. I know people who spent 80,000 dollars at a good four year school to major in landscaping design. Guess what. WASTE OF F'CKING MONEY and now they are still looking for a landscape design position. hmmmmmmmmmmmm.......lets see. I can pay an illegal immigrant $50-75.00 bucks a day or pay someone $60,000 a year to put in bushes, pavers and mow. You do the math.

dh

Small companies may hire people based on specialized skills. Larger corporations have resources to invest in new college grads with a more general academic background. Think about it. Where do all these college grads with history and psychology degree go? McJobs? I think not! They often start out with an entry level generalist, and may later move on to become managers.

As for trying to look for a position in landscape design with only a undergraduate degree...that's a terrible career strategy. You need at least a professional or advanced degree for a designer position. Same with physicists and chemists. You cannot expect to be hired as scientist with an undergrad degree! You either have to get more schooling, or you look for an entry-level technical job. College does not qualify you as a professional. We have pHD programs, med school, law school, business school, etc or that purposes.
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Bmw X6 History

[DarkeN_HellspawN]

but you are way off. I am at a Fortune 700 corporation and the coporate worl is way different then what you think it is so I hope to god you are not saying this based on what you are going through now. HR are applicant taker goes through and matches up criteria based on the resume. I will give them a (need X years of expereince, needs at least X amount of schooling in networking field, needs X amount of experience with CISCO, needs X certification....blah blah. If you do not match that then you are out of the pile. Simple as that. People with Hx degrees or general degrees 20 years ago could morph into IT someday but in todays world that is not feasible. Their are too many people with the skills needed now and either you have what is needed or you dont. Sure if hired you will not be a Senior Level Network Analyst or Senior Systems Engineer but you will start off as a Network Technician or Network Specialist. Corp. world rarely takes chances on trainging people out of the field in IT because it takes way to long and they might not even bve good at it. You always take someone who wnats to work in the field and has proven themselves by schooling or experience. You cant just be into networking as well. You have to be able to cross fields. I want network admins that can work on the PBX and do telecomunnications in a pince if needed and also be well versed in server OS's, server based software.

Degree's that do not mean nothing such as Hx may get your foot in the door for something but IT is not one of them so do not fool yourself into thinking that. You are spouting verbative of college career counselors who dont know sh!t and that is what they will plan for you....SH!T. It is a very demandinig and daily changing field and starting from scratch is not an option if you want to do more then answer then phones at the help desk your entire career.

dh

[Innoc]

Entry level is one thing. But if you find yourself looking when you're well past the age of being ok with entry level then that degree that is relevant to the field will mean the difference in most cases.

[SWAMPTHING360]

i hope you really enjoy networking as much of some of us do circ...it's a dieing trade but theres work out there for huge business'

i have a server and 4 other comps and it's great fun to hook em all up
and watch em all light up

happy networking circ

[bokko]

Yes, networking is a dieing trade, much like shoe making and carpentering!

[Hammock]

Originally Posted by DarkeN_HellspawN

but you are way off. I am at a Fortune 700 corporation and the coporate worl is way different then what you think it is so I hope to god you are not saying this based on what you are going through now. HR are applicant taker goes through and matches up criteria based on the resume. I will give them a (need X years of expereince, needs at least X amount of schooling in networking field, needs X amount of experience with CISCO, needs X certification....blah blah. If you do not match that then you are out of the pile. Simple as that. People with Hx degrees or general degrees 20 years ago could morph into IT someday but in todays world that is not feasible. Their are too many people with the skills needed now and either you have what is needed or you dont. Sure if hired you will not be a Senior Level Network Analyst or Senior Systems Engineer but you will start off as a Network Technician or Network Specialist. Corp. world rarely takes chances on trainging people out of the field in IT because it takes way to long and they might not even bve good at it. You always take someone who wnats to work in the field and has proven themselves by schooling or experience. You cant just be into networking as well. You have to be able to cross fields. I want network admins that can work on the PBX and do telecomunnications in a pince if needed and also be well versed in server OS's, server based software.

Degree's that do not mean nothing such as Hx may get your foot in the door for something but IT is not one of them so do not fool yourself into thinking that. You are spouting verbative of college career counselors who dont know sh!t and that is what they will plan for you....SH!T. It is a very demandinig and daily changing field and starting from scratch is not an option if you want to do more then answer then phones at the help desk your entire career.

dh

I graduated with nothing but a degree in computer programming. The market died out before I even graduated so I ended up doing other stuff for awhile. I worked on composites repairing aircraft components for 3 years after that. The work died out there so I moved cross country. I got a job as a swabbing hand for a slickline truck (this job takes no brains what so ever). Not even half a year into that, I got a change of departments into the well optimization end. This job required a little more computer knowledge, and this is where my degree came in handy.

The degree showed to my employeer that I spent the extra time and effort and took post 2ndary schooling. You don't even have to get a job in the field of your degree for it to work for you, and this is where the value of the degree comes in. Yes it's just a piece of paper, but it's noticable part of your resume.

Since the company I work for is an international oil field service company the opportunities are abundant, after 2 years working there I actually received the opportunity again to move departments and cities to work in the Canadian IT department for this company. This is with no certs or anything and infact being removed from the computer world for almost 6 years.

My degree did this, not any certs I had but the degree itself opened the doors for this opportunity.

That's the beauty of a degree, sure you're saying stuff you'd never hire a guy without this know how and stuff, but that's just you. There are thousands, hundreds of thousands of companies you can work for with nothing behind you but a degree.

The certs should come later yes to further your advancement in the field. But when it comes times to promotions and advancement within a company, if you take two guys one has a shit load of certs and the other just has a degree and a few certs. The guy with the degree has a better chance of becoming the guy with nothing but certs' boss.

It is very difficult to advance, without a degree. And a degree can work for you in other fields. Say some guy 10-15 years down the road has a shit load of certs but no degree, decides he doesn't like what he's doing. Well he can't go to his new field of interest with all his IT certs and says look i'm qualified to manage this department store because I have the following certs.

A degree is a foundation, and someone should get it early on in life, because going back to school for it later is extremely hard, not just because of different obligations and shit, but because as you get older it get's harder and harder to get yourself back into a schooling mindset.

So I say get the degree first, and worry about the certs after.

[MarketGarden]

Very interesting topic, let me add in my 2 cents.

A cert in IT will, in most cases, land you an entry-level job faster than a college degree. It takes less than 2 years to study and pass exams. Low-level IT positions do not require, nor do they have special preference, to any academic degree. They desire candidates who can be highly productive starting on day one.

A college degree is something entirely different. By itself, a diploma qualifies you for absolutely nothing. I don't care if you majored in Statistical Quantum Mechanics, Nuclear Track. As far as your bachelor's degree says, you have completed nothing more than general studies with slight emphasis on physics. A degree does, however, certifies that you have developed effective study skills. It indicates that you have the dedication and means to complete a long study program.

So, between a certified IT tech and a fresh college grad, who has the easier time getting a entry-level job? Surprisingly, they are equally likely to get the position, without regarding other factors. Employers can trust the IT certified because of his up-to-date knowledge. Meanwhile, employers can trust the college grad to utilize his study skills to come up to speed quickly. Even more, the college grad can be expected to get creative in his tasks due to the analytical skills developed at school.

A academic degree has it drawbacks. First, college education is expensive. Second, it takes 4 years of your life just to get thru those boring, soporific humanity + math + writing + language + literature classes. You must endure. Third, bachelor's degrees are getting less valuable because 50% of Americans hold them.

IT certs are not as valuable as you may think. It takes 1-2 years of intense study on a narrow topic to get pass the exam. After you have passed, you must continuously update your cert. This forces you to spend more time preparing. In the end, you may spend more time studying than an average college student.

But, asides from all these considerations, I have an advice for you, Circuitous. If you plan stay in IT for more than a decade, think again! You won't be able to take it. It is will nothing more than a job. It's not a career by anyone's standard. Believe me, unless you accidentally knock up your wife or girlfriend, you will try to get out of IT soon after you've started. This is when a college degree really shine: MBA, CFA, CPA, advanced degree in science, engineering and arts, Education degrees, health science, psychology. Look at all these specialized programs that will give you both advanced-level knowledge and $$$. What do they have in common? What do they invariably ask for as the minimum prerequisite?

Completion of a college degree program with high distinction.

So don't limit yourself to 5 or 10 years down the road. You are still young, and you want to leave yourself as many options as you can.

And above all, don't flunk your classes. Just because you have no interests in what you are studying doesn't mean you should allow yourself to ruin your academic records. You are only hurting yourself. If you are so bored of your classes, then why don't you use your intelligence to cramp thru the material in the shortest time possible. If something is boring, finish it quickly to minimize waste of time and pain of boredom. Why vent your frustration by vandalizing your academic records, something that cannot be erased? Don't enroll in classes until you are ready to ace them.
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CB600F

[AWPerator]

College is for smoking weed, going in bed with innocent college chicks, and pwning the freshman in basketball. Pleasure is the #1 goal in college, not knowledge. Cramming the day before final exams is, believe it or not, fun! Nothing beats the thrill of pushing one's brain to the max under the real threat of flunking. You have drug, sex, thrill, and some violent sports. I love to live my life dangerously!

Screw those certification programs man. Get some fun today. You can always make money later on in life, but you can't live a real life after you have started a family. Put off your money-making ability for now.