Skimming Momentum Theory - Page 4

Circuitous · 05-13-2008, 11:29 PM

It's not slowing you down in midair, though!

KubeDawg · 05-13-2008, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Circuitous

It's not slowing you down in midair, though!

Yeah that was lag apparently...

fireb0rn · 05-14-2008, 12:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Credge

scouts become the offense of choice due to them being able to maintain their conc speed (again, higher skill required due to higher BHop speeds), and medics share the role of D breakers with pyros, sollies, and demos.

Don't you think that medics would simply replace scouts? They would both have concs and have the same BHop speed. The only difference is that scouts would reach that speed slightly faster (which would be negated by the conc).

edit: unless you mean that the concs should actually give them more speed, in which case I dunno. I think it's worth trying out anyways.

Hoopajoo · 06-04-2008, 02:17 AM

I think the balance is good right now as far as the skimming goes.

If you reduce skimming speed you need to reduce the rocket splash and SG reaction time, at least.

A good demo can stop a single scout most of the time. If two scouts get right in simultaneously, the soldier(s) and engi or whoever is up front is failing....

The real problem in the game is most people suck too bad to hit scouts and some maps are wiiiide open which is just bad map design really.... The SG reaction time is fast enough to stop most scouts in most instances in this game, taking several tosses or perfect concs to get a touch or movement.

I could see that the progressive slow down would make scouts/medics be able to perform most of the same moves, its just that their getaway will be slower after a certain distance... so like on openfire for example it would be easier to get stopped in the water, or in aardvark when trying to get out of the base, etc.

The movement of this game is good... The real problems are fundamental balance issues with pyro/hw/engineer(sg's).....

Tsukasa · 07-17-2008, 06:59 AM

Prediction: If the hard cap gets put in place some D classes will become horribly overpowered, and we will go through several nerf/buff phases like we did with the HW.

Circuitous · 07-17-2008, 07:09 AM

Fact: the primary test for the hard cap thus far has been base entry against front door defenders.

Tsukasa · 07-17-2008, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Circuitous

Fact: the primary test for the hard cap thus far has been base entry against front door defenders.

Did I say you or the rest of the dev team weren't testing it or trying to balance it? No, I didn't. I just believe balancing something properly requires thousands of games, both public and clan style.

Circuitous · 07-17-2008, 07:33 AM

If they were going to be "horribly overpowered" we would've seen signs of it by now, surely?

Tsukasa · 07-17-2008, 07:38 AM

Like I said, I'm basing this prediction off the HW. Maybe 2.1 will be magically perfectly balanced and all classes are played equally in pubs and clan style. But I doubt it.

GeoKill-----> · 07-17-2008, 07:43 AM

Well you just have to wait and see then

Tsukasa · 07-17-2008, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeoKill----->

Well you just have to wait and see then

...Whaaaaat?! You have to wait to see the outcome of a prediction?! Thats... So insightful!

**squeek.** · 07-17-2008, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tsukasa

Prediction: If the hard cap gets put in place some D classes will become horribly overpowered, and we will go through several nerf/buff phases like we did with the HW.

Fact: Defense classes have been adjusted to compensate.

Tsukasa · 07-17-2008, 11:07 AM

Quote:

will go through several nerf/buff phases

Fact: This is a really annoying style of communicating.

Ihmhi · 07-17-2008, 12:08 PM

Aren't you just arguing with yourself at this point?

TFC went through a buttload of patches and it's still not as balanced as it could have been. The FF Devs are dedicated guys who will be working on this game for many years to come.

You know what we would love? The ability to use Steamworks. It's a brilliant idea that would be a godsend for mods, except Valve forgot where they came from and don't want mods to use it. Or something.

If we had something like that in place (that was the Crosus attempt previously, but no surprise that people didn't want to install an additional program), patches could be brought down a lot faster and automatically.

Regrettably, we don't have such a luxury and probably won't for the foreseeable future. Even Valve - you know, professionals, making games for money, instead of for free, like us - patches TF2. Don't they usually release a patch after a "big patch" to fix some sort of balance problem?

The best we can do is have our testers and devs do their job (shocking!) and test the changes to the best of our ability. We will never be 100% prepared for what's going to happen when a patch is released into the wild but are doing everything we can to make sure things work out as well as they can with the resources we have at hand.

Lastly, when we have some of the best concers and offense players in the game (who are, for very good reasons, also beta testers) signing off on the direction we are going (see Hoopajoo's post), then I think we're doing something right.

If that isn't enough for you guys you're never going to be satisfied. Sorry.

**Elmo** · 07-17-2008, 12:26 PM

damn right

Tsukasa · 07-17-2008, 12:34 PM

Wow Ihmhi, you decided to actually address me as a person, rather then flaming. I respect that.

Look, I am not against hardcap. I never was. I think that a drastic change will provoke imbalance, and in lieu of another 6 month patch time, change is bad.

There is of course an easy fix: release patches whenever imbalances occur, going from the yearly scope down to the weekly scope. If the patch is small, people will patch on their own. I would like to see the "release early, release often" mindset adopted.

And as far as your little Steamworks spiel there are two solution. The first is to make the FF installer include a bit of cygwin, which rsyncs the FF dir on launch. It's a bit dirty but it works; you could either launch from the shortcut or more elegantly (if the sdk allows it) pipe output from the shell to a window in Fortress (pre-load). Another is to optionally allow FF to be bought from Steam for $5-10. It would then include SDK base, and you can use Steamworks to your hearts content. Use any revenue for patch servers. People can still download for free, but they have to deal with keeping up with each patch on their own.

trepid_jon · 07-17-2008, 03:41 PM

Considering how hard it was to port FF to the Orange Box engine, I don't want that OB patch to take forever to release. I just want to release 2.1 and then start working on the Orange Box FF patch...

So yeah, don't assume it'll be a long time for the patch after 2.1 to be released.

Hammock · 07-17-2008, 03:53 PM

Can't you just impliment a "Check For Updates" and "Download Updates" feature on the FF welcome screen?

zE · 07-17-2008, 03:59 PM

but orange box port does mean u have to buy the orange box ?

v3rtigo · 07-17-2008, 04:23 PM

No

05-13-2008, 11:29 PM	#61
Circuitous Useless Retired FF Staff Join Date: Jun 2005 Class/Position: D Soldier, O Scout Gametype: AvD Posts Rated Helpful 9 Times	It's not slowing you down in midair, though! __________________ Look at all those dead links.

06-04-2008, 02:17 AM	#64
Hoopajoo Join Date: Aug 2007 Affiliations: ( GoodFellas . ) Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I think the balance is good right now as far as the skimming goes. If you reduce skimming speed you need to reduce the rocket splash and SG reaction time, at least. A good demo can stop a single scout most of the time. If two scouts get right in simultaneously, the soldier(s) and engi or whoever is up front is failing.... The real problem in the game is most people suck too bad to hit scouts and some maps are wiiiide open which is just bad map design really.... The SG reaction time is fast enough to stop most scouts in most instances in this game, taking several tosses or perfect concs to get a touch or movement. I could see that the progressive slow down would make scouts/medics be able to perform most of the same moves, its just that their getaway will be slower after a certain distance... so like on openfire for example it would be easier to get stopped in the water, or in aardvark when trying to get out of the base, etc. The movement of this game is good... The real problems are fundamental balance issues with pyro/hw/engineer(sg's)..... Last edited by Hoopajoo; 06-04-2008 at 02:23 AM.

07-17-2008, 07:09 AM	#66
Circuitous Useless Retired FF Staff Join Date: Jun 2005 Class/Position: D Soldier, O Scout Gametype: AvD Posts Rated Helpful 9 Times	Fact: the primary test for the hard cap thus far has been base entry against front door defenders. __________________ Look at all those dead links.

07-17-2008, 07:33 AM	#68
Circuitous Useless Retired FF Staff Join Date: Jun 2005 Class/Position: D Soldier, O Scout Gametype: AvD Posts Rated Helpful 9 Times	If they were going to be "horribly overpowered" we would've seen signs of it by now, surely? __________________ Look at all those dead links.

07-17-2008, 07:43 AM	#70
GeoKill-----> Community Member Server Owner Beta Tester Forum Moderator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Hawthorne, California Class/Position: Soldier/Spy/Scout Gametype: AvD Affiliations: :e0:Eternal Order Leader Posts Rated Helpful 12 Times	Well you just have to wait and see then __________________ Fortress-Forever Guides All Your Mapping Needs :e0: Will live on Forever Support FF:

07-17-2008, 06:59 AM	#65
Tsukasa Join Date: Sep 2007 Class/Position: O Gametype: CTF Affiliations: mimic- Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Prediction: If the hard cap gets put in place some D classes will become horribly overpowered, and we will go through several nerf/buff phases like we did with the HW.

07-17-2008, 07:38 AM	#69
Tsukasa Join Date: Sep 2007 Class/Position: O Gametype: CTF Affiliations: mimic- Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Like I said, I'm basing this prediction off the HW. Maybe 2.1 will be magically perfectly balanced and all classes are played equally in pubs and clan style. But I doubt it.

07-17-2008, 12:08 PM	#74
Ihmhi [AE] 0112 Ihmhi SJB Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Newark, NJ, United States Class/Position: A little bit o' everythin' Gametype: Also a little bit o' everythin' Affiliations: [AE] Asseater, SJB Straight Jacket Brigade Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times	Aren't you just arguing with yourself at this point? TFC went through a buttload of patches and it's still not as balanced as it could have been. The FF Devs are dedicated guys who will be working on this game for many years to come. You know what we would love? The ability to use Steamworks. It's a brilliant idea that would be a godsend for mods, except Valve forgot where they came from and don't want mods to use it. Or something. If we had something like that in place (that was the Crosus attempt previously, but no surprise that people didn't want to install an additional program), patches could be brought down a lot faster and automatically. Regrettably, we don't have such a luxury and probably won't for the foreseeable future. Even Valve - you know, professionals, making games for money, instead of for free, like us - patches TF2. Don't they usually release a patch after a "big patch" to fix some sort of balance problem? The best we can do is have our testers and devs do their job (shocking!) and test the changes to the best of our ability. We will never be 100% prepared for what's going to happen when a patch is released into the wild but are doing everything we can to make sure things work out as well as they can with the resources we have at hand. Lastly, when we have some of the best concers and offense players in the game (who are, for very good reasons, also beta testers) signing off on the direction we are going (see Hoopajoo's post), then I think we're doing something right. If that isn't enough for you guys you're never going to be satisfied. Sorry. __________________ Support FF: Anime: The Thread: Reloaded The one and only anime thread on these here forums. Select the pistol, and then, select your horse.

07-17-2008, 12:26 PM	#75
Elmo Gets tickled by FF Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: UK Class/Position: Med Solly HW Gametype: Any/CTF Posts Rated Helpful 41 Times	damn right __________________ Support FF: Done: ff_monkey Done: ff_bases Done: ff_warpath Forever Doing: ff_medieval (beta#99999999)

07-17-2008, 12:34 PM	#76
Tsukasa Join Date: Sep 2007 Class/Position: O Gametype: CTF Affiliations: mimic- Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Wow Ihmhi, you decided to actually address me as a person, rather then flaming. I respect that. Look, I am not against hardcap. I never was. I think that a drastic change will provoke imbalance, and in lieu of another 6 month patch time, change is bad. There is of course an easy fix: release patches whenever imbalances occur, going from the yearly scope down to the weekly scope. If the patch is small, people will patch on their own. I would like to see the "release early, release often" mindset adopted. And as far as your little Steamworks spiel there are two solution. The first is to make the FF installer include a bit of cygwin, which rsyncs the FF dir on launch. It's a bit dirty but it works; you could either launch from the shortcut or more elegantly (if the sdk allows it) pipe output from the shell to a window in Fortress (pre-load). Another is to optionally allow FF to be bought from Steam for $5-10. It would then include SDK base, and you can use Steamworks to your hearts content. Use any revenue for patch servers. People can still download for free, but they have to deal with keeping up with each patch on their own.

07-17-2008, 03:41 PM	#77
trepid_jon Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Dallas, TX Class/Position: D Civilian Gametype: Rocket Jousting Affiliations: EAFD Posts Rated Helpful 78 Times	Considering how hard it was to port FF to the Orange Box engine, I don't want that OB patch to take forever to release. I just want to release 2.1 and then start working on the Orange Box FF patch... So yeah, don't assume it'll be a long time for the patch after 2.1 to be released. __________________ Support FF: Trepid steamcommunity.com/id/trepid_jon/

07-17-2008, 03:53 PM	#78
Hammock D&A Member Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 13 Times	Can't you just impliment a "Check For Updates" and "Download Updates" feature on the FF welcome screen?

07-17-2008, 03:59 PM	#79
zE Pew pew ze beams Join Date: Jan 2008 Gametype: Gathers Affiliations: pew pew Posts Rated Helpful 11 Times	but orange box port does mean u have to buy the orange box ?

07-17-2008, 04:23 PM	#80
v3rtigo Lock 'n Loll! Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: 2fort Class/Position: Scout, Spy, Sniper Gametype: CTF Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	No

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