The state of TFC's gameplay in pubs

[own3r]

Before I start ill explain the reason for this thread; I don't want FF to coppy TFC's very poor gameplay in public servers.

Whats wrong with TFC's gameplay?

Offence is made a nightmare, so much skill is required even then its nigh on impossible. This is caused by HWguys standing on choke points, then soldiers are able to impact huge dammage without much effort or skill. The only thing the scouts can do is conc, medics can use frag grenades but several are required to do anything to the defensive classes.

So then you are stuck, the maps are poorly designed with too many narrow corridors, low ceilings and choke points just turn gameplay into a stalemate. It gets worse then several snipers join and hide in alkward places out of reach of offence and pick them off. Well is THE worst for this with a protected sniper deck, roof on which to camp, corners of both sides to camp, on top of water grate on which to camp, behind the doors either side.

All of these things just lock up the game and drain the fun out of offence making it more of a chore. I suggest that classes like HWguy, soldier and sniper are made harder to play maybe even add some skill to them. Grenade radius is being decreased for a start, the AC should be made slower fireing it just obliterates everything atm, snipers normal rifle should have a clip and they should be made to glow or something so they cannot hide, remove the sniper's autorifle - why should a sniper get a machine gun? The ability a sniper has is to snipe not pick off weaker classes with a machine gun surely.

This if implimented would increase the chances for offence and make it a less frustraiting position to play. It also acts as more of a reward for all the skills required to play it. Stalemates currently rife in TFC drive people away from the game they are frustraiting and can be avoided so less work it out from the start.

[Guy Incognito]

As Spy.

Sniper ...to kill > 1 nade, or 1 nade, 1 shotty blast
Demo ...to kill > tranq, gas gren, stab
Pyro ...to kill > shotty blasts, nade
HWguy ...to kill > gas gren, strafe, knife.
Medic ...to kill > shotty, 1 nade
Spy ...to kill > take your pick
Engineer ...to kill > nade, or nade, 1 shotty blast
Scout ...to kill > shotty, 1 nade

My point being every class has the potential to murder the other equaly if played properly.

And chokepoints, are for defending... or if attacking make you use a strategy.

Otherwise it'd be two empty buildings, a yard and coloured deathmatch.

I agree that teamplay is more or less lost on pubs, but there more or less for practice anyhow. So nothing really wrong with the gameplay, it just takes time to learn, as with anything else. Also the beauty of it doesnt really shine through when people are playing a map as every man for himself.

[own3r]

It simply sucks scouts and medics dont stand a chance with the lack of teamplay on pubs need more chokepoints so its not so focused.

[zSilver_Fox]

Originally Posted by Guy Incognito

As Spy.

Sniper ...to kill > 1 nade, or 1 nade, 1 shotty blast
Demo ...to kill > tranq, gas gren, stab
Pyro ...to kill > shotty blasts, nade
HWguy ...to kill > gas gren, strafe, knife.
Medic ...to kill > shotty, 1 nade
Spy ...to kill > take your pick
Engineer ...to kill > nade, or nade, 1 shotty blast
Scout ...to kill > shotty, 1 nade

My point being every class has the potential to murder the other equaly if played properly.

And chokepoints, are for defending... or if attacking make you use a strategy.

Otherwise it'd be two empty buildings, a yard and coloured deathmatch.

I agree that teamplay is more or less lost on pubs, but there more or less for practice anyhow. So nothing really wrong with the gameplay, it just takes time to learn, as with anything else. Also the beauty of it doesnt really shine through when people are playing a map as every man for himself.

Are you by any chance Incognito from Axl's TFC?

Anyway, pubs are pubs. They're made for DMing and having a hell of a time shooting the shit of out people. When a scout can try out defence on dustbowl, or an HWG doing esad_strafe2...

I've been playing on Odin's Graveyard lately, and it can be hard to defend on some maps that are too open. Choke points force the offence to work together if they want to cap the flag.

[Digital_Ghost]

Teamplay still exists on pubs, just gotta find the right servers or catch a server at the right time. Ifind the moments when teamplay drops from my experience is when there are WAY too many snipers ( the whores), then thats when i go spy and cut out thier slimy spines.

[Johnny Mullet]

It all comes down to Team-play

[Fail]

Originally Posted by own3r

I suggest that classes like HWguy, soldier and sniper are made harder to play maybe even add some skill to them.

Alright man, I'm so fucking sick of people talking about 'skill' in FPS games. It's all skillful, if there was a completely unskillful class that everybody can own with then guess what? Everybody would use it. Not only that but what you claim to be skill-less is very daft including a rapid fire weapon, projectile weapon, and hitscan weapon.

[Ihmhi]

I think most of the current stuff now is not all that bad.

There are a few problems with the game that are being adequately addressed in FF.

The Scout is a fairly well balanced class. The ability to remove Spy disguises is a good defensive capability that is rarely used (and duplicated by the Spy). Caltrops are a great defensive tool, whether to slow down incoming enemies or to give the Scout a chance to get away. The Scout's advantage is speed and that is where he wins. The ability to disarm detpacks is also a very good ability (and something I use often). (Is this staying in FF? I hope so, because then detpacks lose the counter-balance.)

The Sniper is overpowered in some ways and underpowered in others. The sniper rifle will charge up again (like it used to), so that will bring back some of the skill. The AR is overpowered (in the sense of accuracy) and the cone of fire change will address this serious advantage. The sniper's main drawback is that stealth is a Sniper's strength and most maps practically force snipers to be on battlements where they are vulnerable from many angles of attack. I hope that there will be more maps where the Sniper will have an adequate place to hide out better and gain the rare advantage of stealth in this game.

The Soldier's only real shortcoming is his rockets are slow. In close quarters the rockets are very useful, but when you start getting into areas about the size of 2fort's yard the speed of the rocket greatly reduces a Solly's chance of hitting an enemy. The speed increase for rockets will address this nicely.

The Demoman is a good class as it is; there are not really any balance issues that come to mind.

Medic, same thing. Very nicely balanced and probably the best "jack of all trades" class. He is outfitted with tactical weapons (conc, infect, super nailgun), good direct damage weapons (nade, shotty), and has some nice additional abilities (heal teammates, cure infections, automatically heal health).

The HW is a bit too overpowered at the moment. Novice snipers will be lucky to pop a HW in two shots, much less one. The HW's job is to tank though, so this is probably not so much an imbalance as the class's strength. The AC is overpowered in close quarters and a novice O edic or Scout will have to be damn lucky to get past an enemy HW in a good chokepoint. The changes to the AC (could someone please detail them in this thread, or link a thread where they are discussed?) will likely fix this.

The Pyro is altogether weak and seen as more of a harassment class. Skilled snipers are not bothered by the fire of IC rockets anymore; they just fear the damage (weak as it may be). This makes one of the ICs main purposes (counter-sniper) moot. I like how the IC is going to be a ballistic instead of a straight fire projectile as it will add some more skill needed to play the class. As I understand it the Pyro is also getting a boost in damage which is also great.

The Spy is underpowered in FF and takes a lot of skill to play effectively. (Remember, Spy is the only class where you have to actually fool people instead of just out bhop or strafe them.) The Sabotage SG and ability to switch disguised weapons address this shortcoming very nicely in my opinion.

The Engineer is another "jack of all trades" class that has a good balance as it is. I can not think of any balance issues with this class, either.

All in all, things look good for FF. Let us hope that these class balance changes in combination with the changes to the release maps will fix a lot of the offense issues that currently exist in TFC.

Lastly, the one upside to the ability of the D to clog up their base so much is that it has bred a generation of highly skilled O players that might not have otherwise existed. Granted, playing in clan 5v5 or 9v9 is an entirely different ballpark, but pubbing on large servers (16+ people) and playing O will teach a player to innovate very quickly.

[allisvoid]

Originally Posted by Guy Incognito

I agree that teamplay is more or less lost on pubs

Originally Posted by Guy Incognito

map as every man for himself.

THIS is why "game-play" is poor on pubs. it is not poor because offense is too hard.

sure, you can say "a soldier or hwguy takes no skill to play," but you're most likely the only one on offense who is worth any kind of crap, or the only one playing offense at all for that matter. if that is the case, then the guy with "no skill" has probably been playing this game (TFC, not just class based fortress games) since it was first released and actually has a significant amount of experience (skill) [more than you].

game-play is poor on pubs because you never have two teams with offensive and defensive squads and good communication of in-comings/outgoings/flag movement [etc.] AND all the players are of an approximate equal skill level. additionally, that "no skill" hwguy or soldier could quite possibly be accompanied by one or more additional defensive players (very common).

this BALANCED [offensive/defensive squads, communication] game-play is found in leagues and other organized forms of play, though not perfect but at the very least 75% better than "pubs."

if you are someone who plays in leagues (i apologize as i assumed that you don't play in a clan in a league etc.) then maybe the league is too small to have enough divisions to properly balance game-play OR I'm stoned off my ass (i am).

and yeah, this is not true 100% of the time because nothing in TFC game-play, or any multiplayer online game, is the same all the time.

AND... lol

Originally Posted by Fail

Alright man, I'm so fucking sick of people talking about 'skill' in FPS games. It's all skillful, if there was a completely unskillful class that everybody can own with then guess what? Everybody would use it. Not only that but what you claim to be skill-less is very daft including a rapid fire weapon, projectile weapon, and hitscan weapon.

absolutely fabulous. i couldn't have said it better.

dammit...

Originally Posted by zSilver_Fox

Choke points force the offence to work together if they want to cap the flag.

another great statement. this is exactly the point of organized fortress-style play, but who said that is how this game was meant to be played? maybe organization was never meant to be in the game?

yeah.............................................. ...............

[3vil9rin]

The only map that really grates when one team goes all out defence is rock2. The feeling you get when you beat an 8 man def on 2fort, well etc. is superb. And on public servers it is far easier than you make out.

[Guy Incognito]

No, I go by Guy Incognito... used to be TheJabMan as JAB are my initials way back in QTF days untill the last few months I played it, then carried over to Guy Incognito.

And yeah, spy you have to fool people with, but thats what makes it so much more rewarding when you shank them.

[ekiM]

TFC isn't really about teamplay.

[Player]

Rofl, own3r, you make me laugh :P

I was there, on that very server, reading every one of your sentences; each was a complaint--mainly due to snipers hurting your feelings...

Some quotes for the viewing public to digest:
"Get some skill..." - []own3r
"Play a class that requires skill" - []own3r
"ARGH SNIPERS ARE POOP" (Something along those lines, anyway) - []own3r

And yes, offence is hard on a pub if you are the only offence and a large proportion of the opposition's team is defence. You, therefore, should know what to expect.

Next time you play, play as a sniper. I can garuntee that you will enjoy it (and to play sniper effectively you need more skill that you think it needs). I will agree with you on one point though: the autorifle is completely bollocks.

And please, play for fun rather than trying to "PWNED!" people.

Also, changing a game to suit public playing style really would diminish the quality of the game.

[own3r]

Im sure seeing as how more than half the player base play their games on public servers.

EDIT
This is the point, its not any fun to get constantly sniped its darn irritating, its also anoying to be constantly mullered by a hwguy spraying on your general direction.

[puppychow]

nothing wrong with pubs...pubs are pubs for a reason - people just want some quick fun and it can be very fun, even when it degenerates into medic infect spamming, someone being naughty and spamming a little spawn here and there, or using exploits. pubs may not be very team play or serious but i still always end up laughing.

not really sure what your point is. it's not suppossed to be a serious experience. and if you want something more competitive or by the book, play in clans.

and not to be a dick, but with all your complaints about snipers or hw's you come of just as someone who can't change tactics or someone with little skill.

snipers becomming irritating? effing go spy and knife em and gas grenade spam their ass. they will change their ways. better yet, go pyro and go IC Cannon crazy.

[Agret]

Pubs are fun, especially on well. Just go demoman and blast open both grates (yeah, your own ) and then go into the middle and jump into the water, come up under their bridge for air, conc to the flag, grab it, escape out the water, run into your water, swim to your cap, cap. Repeat. Pubbers never catch on and you can just keep capping their flag while they fight in the mid You may occasionally have to shotgun some noob in your waterway though, other than that it's smooth sailing.

If you're playing OvD just use your microphone to tell your team what to do, nobody will pay attention to your text messages but they almost always follow your orders on mic. As long as you aren't sending them to their deaths too often, then they'll just say 'screw you' and do their own thing like before.

[allisvoid]

Originally Posted by own3r

its not any fun to get constantly sniped its darn irritating, its also anoying to be constantly mullered by a hwguy spraying on your general direction.

so learn to kick their ass or learn a way around them. duck around a corner and wait until the hwguy stops firing or runs out of bullets. play smart, not gun-ho...

you're missing the entire point... pub game-play is how it is because of the people playing. no one works together or everyone plays sniper or a whole team is on defense or whatever is happening. it is not poor because some classes take no skill... they all take skill, yes even hwguy. and yes, all he does is shoot in a general direction but hell, that's what he was designed to do. you just need to adapt and learn to whoop their ass instead of complaining and trying to get the game warped into what would make it easier for you.

this is silly.

if the sniper on well is bothering you, exit your base via your water and swim to the middle area... go through it to the other side and enter through the enemies water... yeah it takes longer, but he can't snipe you. problem solved.

[mistermojo]

hopefully there will be enough interest in FF to have

1) pubs
2) lots of pickup games
3) leagues

then you can just dick around on pubs, have a good game if you dont have enough time/dont want to join a clan, and have good clan games

[Fail]

Originally Posted by Player

Also, changing a game to suit public playing style really would diminish the quality of the game.

If you design a game well it works well in pubs and competitive play without having to cater to either.

[Fjorn]

In fact, it does that right now, both clanners and pubbers can have fun in the same game