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Old 01-29-2010, 03:22 PM   #41
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I firmly believe that this game has been designed and implemented the best way it could have been, considering the player base that it caters to.

These threads are a wash, it's the same old players with their same old personal issues with the game. Nothing will happen here, other than getting carpal tunnel from typing these long-winded unqualified diatribes on game theory.

If you have a problem with this game, do what everyone else does. Play another game that you have more fun with for a while. When you come back to FF, you can appreciate it for what it is, not what you wish it was.

Thanks.
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Old 01-29-2010, 04:19 PM   #42
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meanwhile... things will continue to change as we will continue break down a number of things we want to address.

It urks and amuses me when I hear someone saying "NOTHING will come of these threads." Some recent threads have been particularly useful as the community have been finding the same problems that we, the developers, have also previously identified. The only problem is finding the time to get round to making such changes, having to do what we believe needs to be done before such changes or focussing on other higher priority changes.

In general, I hate this repeated "ALL HOPE IS LOST" I keep hearing from the community. If thats how you feel then fine, keep it to yourself cause we'll continue to work on FF regardless.... when we find time from 'RL' of course.
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Old 01-29-2010, 04:42 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonoXideAtWork View Post
I firmly believe that this game has been designed and implemented the best way it could have been, considering the player base that it caters to.

These threads are a wash, it's the same old players with their same old personal issues with the game. Nothing will happen here, other than getting carpal tunnel from typing these long-winded unqualified diatribes on game theory.

If you have a problem with this game, do what everyone else does. Play another game that you have more fun with for a while. When you come back to FF, you can appreciate it for what it is, not what you wish it was.

Thanks.
You're assuming that this game was supposed to cater to that niche group of gamers. What if that was never the intention and all the poorly received implementations or changes have just dwindled down to that player base? These threads are not a waste, because if they were, you would find it redundant to point that out to us. If you have a problem with this thread, do what everyone else does: move along. The whole 'appreciate FF for what it is, not what you wish it were' argument encourages the development to remain static. It doesn't provide an incentive to better something that can obviously be improved. It's an appeal to ignorance. "If I ignore all the problems, they don't exist, right?" Why is there even a false dichotomy there? Maybe I enjoy Fortress Forever for what it is and wish to improve it at the same time? I mean, realistically, isn't my appreciation of the game the only thing that motivates me to want to improve it? Why would someone waste their time if they didn't give a shit?
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Old 01-31-2010, 04:21 AM   #44
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Bridget for someone who doesn't currently play, as you posted elsewhere, you certainly enjoy stirring up a lot of angst in these discussions =\

I agree with Monoxide in that i feel instant gratification in capping a long sought after flag, especially when it's a great battle with the defense. I played tfc from it's beggining to about a year or two ago on and off. I'm going to have to agree that this game has been ported perfectly for what it is, a tfc upgrade. All this complaining for change in the game, I think playing another game instead really is the solution, because this game is a perfect port pretty much for what it is! The ff team did a fantastic job. The maps are beautiful, the classes are quite well done, I enjoy the game for what it is, just have fun or stop playing, no sense complaining, life is too short

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Old 01-31-2010, 04:51 AM   #45
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It's a Team Fortress game, not a Team Fortress Classic game.
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Old 01-31-2010, 08:40 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MonoXideAtWork View Post
I firmly believe that this game has been designed and implemented the best way it could have been, considering the player base that it caters to.

These threads are a wash, it's the same old players with their same old personal issues with the game. Nothing will happen here, other than getting carpal tunnel from typing these long-winded unqualified diatribes on game theory.

If you have a problem with this game, do what everyone else does. Play another game that you have more fun with for a while. When you come back to FF, you can appreciate it for what it is, not what you wish it was.

Thanks.
Honestly the only reason this game has such a limited player base is because it's not called TF2 and not marketed in over steam in the same way. Can anyone name another steam game that has significantly better without a corporate advertising superpower behind it?
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Old 02-02-2010, 06:26 AM   #47
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Dr. Satan & squeek: Those are the big ones, though there are several smaller ones. Hwguy doesn't have as much bite (the original AC was more like an auto-shotgun), less sg push, sg's don't block splash damage, spies have more abilities. Not sure if the new speed mitigation balances out the extra speeds or not, also the sg is better with some types of tracking, worse with others, so that's also in grey area.

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Honestly the only reason this game has such a limited player base is because it's not called TF2 and not marketed in over steam in the same way. Can anyone name another steam game that has significantly better without a corporate advertising superpower behind it?
Zombie Panic Source. As of the time of this post it has over 200 people playing, Fortress Forever has 7. Zombie Master has 24 people playing right now. I don't play them, but I think Insurgency, Modular Combat, and Empires have a decent playercount as well.
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Old 02-03-2010, 09:10 PM   #48
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Those games aren't tied directly to heavily marketed games like FF is to TF2, being basically the same game. You could argue this for zombie panic and master, but those games are very different than left4dead, And Insurgency is an amazing acomplishment for a mod. That game could easily be a sellable game.
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Old 02-04-2010, 04:45 AM   #49
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You're suggesting that TF2 is directly pulling away potential players of FF, but not other games?
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Old 02-04-2010, 06:52 AM   #50
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In my past experience playing TF2, or transitioning from the TFC to TF2/FF community, few players that i knew transfered over to FF, or few from TF2 played or stuck with FF for more than a quick distraction. That's all i was saying is that in my experience those i know are playing TF2 over FF, and if TF2 weren't around i'm sure there would be far more on FF.

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Old 02-04-2010, 05:48 PM   #51
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By your logic blackout, I shouldn't even be playing this game. I started as a TF2 player and decided to try out FF. Initially, I was offput by the crazy movement mechanics, so I quit for a couple months. However, TF2 has been annoying me lately with the cheesiness of updates and the general instability of the game, so I came back to FF.

I now play FF more than TF2. Why? Pyro is a class that actually requires skill and movement ability. Engineer needs more planning and needs to be more reactive to counter enemy pushes, and has a weapon that requires real skill to be effective with (Railgun). Heavy is not a total failfest because he is genuinely effective at middle range and doesn't have a crippling spindown time. Demoman isn't as much of a chokepoint whore. (I rarely ever see Demos spamming sticky pipes all over the flag in TF2 except when it's been dropped halfway to the enemy cap. usually they are camping chokepoints with stickies all over the walls) CTF is actually fun sometimes and has good maps.

My one gripe with FF, and the likely reason that offense is so annoying in pubs, is that the Medic isn't actually contributing anything to the effectiveness of his team like he is in TF2. Pushes can't move forward because their HP isn't being healed and their armor is more important to staying alive. Since armor will virtually always run out before HP in the case of the heavier classes, and the buff mechanic isn't very useful because everyone will lose the buff before they even reach an engagement, something needs to be done to improve the Medic's team support ability and slightly downplay his role as a heavy fast class.

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Old 02-05-2010, 10:19 PM   #52
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Easy now, I'm not personally attacking you Eon, i stated this was the case with those I knew from the TFC community and TF2 community. Unfortunately pyro takes no more skill in FF than it does in TF2 =\ It's still an annoyance class that spams fire, albeit also in grenade form in FF. The heavy in TF2 is a very powerful tool, and with critz becomes amazing in a long range fight. As for the medic, he's a fighter in this style of TF, he's used to kill the defence for the other offensive classes, or at least sideline them enough for his team to get by. Although I get what you're saying about the medic in pubs.

Now like you i had problems with TF2 which is why i'm posting in these forums. I'm not putting down FF, I really enjoy the game, I'm just stating what I've beein in contact with.
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Old 02-06-2010, 12:39 AM   #53
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My one gripe with FF, and the likely reason that offense is so annoying in pubs, is that the Medic isn't actually contributing anything to the effectiveness of his team like he is in TF2. Pushes can't move forward because their HP isn't being healed and their armor is more important to staying alive. Since armor will virtually always run out before HP in the case of the heavier classes, and the buff mechanic isn't very useful because everyone will lose the buff before they even reach an engagement, something needs to be done to improve the Medic's team support ability and slightly downplay his role as a heavy fast class.
The problem there, isn't in the Medic class, but in how it's played. In TFC, a medic would try to help out his team mates, while still going for the flag/objective. I can't tell you how many times I've reached the area near the flag room with low heath, and had a medic run by and jack me back to full, so I could help him get the flag and get out.

The Medic DOES need some help, as the hitboxes for the medipad are still a bit messed up. The main issue is that too many players play "for me" rules. Unless we put an aura around the Medic, to heal his team without his direct intervention.... it's going to continue to be a problem.

It comes down to this: Do we change the game, or try to change the player?
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Old 02-06-2010, 05:29 AM   #54
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On DvD: people like to kill things. It's satisfying, it feels good to beat someone and see your score go up and your name on the left side of the kill-spam. Offense is less about killing and more about evasion, and being the guy that tosses the flag through the lasers, though more important than a kill, doesn't really feel much different than dying on a basic level (which sucks).

I don't know if this can be fixed in CTF, in a non-competitive context. You could turn on team damage but that's an invitation for abuse on public servers. This same problem existed in TFC, and what's interesting to me, is that it seems to be more intense in FF than it was in TFC.

I think the more interesting question is: why is this more a problem in FF pubs than it was in TFC pubs? Is the movement aspect of offense not as compelling? Is FF movement weaker, slower? Are defensive classes overbalanced? Coming from someone who played primarily Soldier in all his years of competitive TFC, FF Soldier feels incredibly good - maybe too good. AC feels like it kills faster in FF. Demo feels about the same, like a niche class. SG's seem to respond faster and more consistently.

Maybe Scouts and Medics just need to be faster or hit harder. I can't speak for the Spy, as it was niche as hell in TFC and haven't experienced it much in FF. Ditto for Pyro.

One thing I think FF doesn't need is a Medic that primarily supports. It will slow the game down hugely, which is what distinguishes FF from its big brother. Medic has always been the bread-and-butter offensive class to match the bread-and-butter defensive class: Soldier. High mobility, moderate durability, and high damage potential.

Maybe the change to grenades - fewer and smaller radius, hurt offense more than defense.

Just throwing shit out there, seeing if anything sticks.
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Old 02-07-2010, 04:13 AM   #55
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Iggy's right about medics - the class is fine, it's just the players that refuse to help out their teammates that give it the bad rep. You saw the same thing in TFC, meds that would only try to solo the other team.
For pubs, one medic on defense can make a huge difference.

Greg, I wouldn't say that any one thing is "stronger" than in TFC. Quite the opposite - the AC isn't as good. A heavy v. heavy fight in TFC would be over in two seconds, tops. Rockets have less push. Just about everything in FF is weaker, damage wise.

In TFC, I find it hard to land a solid shotgun hit on someone that's bouncing around. I can't explain why, but the difficulty is there. When I do slug them, though, that person feels it. Projectiles are even harder. Rockets are slower, but when it connects, it hurts a ton and knocks the enemy into the air for a +shotty combo.

Compare it to FF. Everything's faster, sure. Shotties and rockets fire faster, projectiles are quicker. You fire off more rounds, so you hit a lot. But nothing has the stopping force that it did in TFC. It takes three people in FF to have the same DPS as two people in TFC. You need more defenders.

And by the time blue team gets enough defense to hold off any red offense coming their way, they won't have enough attackers to make a dent in red's base. So the would-be attackers then go D. And red's offense gives up too. DvD.
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Old 02-07-2010, 08:59 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Raynian
Greg, I wouldn't say that any one thing is "stronger" than in TFC. Quite the opposite - the AC isn't as good. A heavy v. heavy fight in TFC would be over in two seconds, tops. Rockets have less push. Just about everything in FF is weaker, damage wise.
I've always suspected this, but I've never had a way of proving it. You know, I think this could be a BIG reason why more players haven't stayed on. Up to a point, it's far more satisfying to have more powerful weapons than weaker ones. Considering how FF has more movement options and instant respawn, there's even less reason for it.
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Old 02-07-2010, 02:10 PM   #57
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The main thing I see as being bad for offense is the lack of Pyros (and other heavier classes) following up the Medics. Pyros, regardless of how much they may be hated, are important to offense. They are the 3rd fastest class with the 3rd heaviest armor and the 3rd most powerful weapons at close range. A couple Pyros working together can wreck a defense. Their main purpose is to keep the clusterf%$# away from the Scouts and Medics and occupy the defense.

No Pyros equals an offense with about half as much firepower (pun not intended) as it could have. However, none of the better players will run offense Pyro because it's a "noob class".

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Old 02-08-2010, 07:24 PM   #58
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Greg, I wouldn't say that any one thing is "stronger" than in TFC. Quite the opposite - the AC isn't as good. A heavy v. heavy fight in TFC would be over in two seconds, tops. Rockets have less push. Just about everything in FF is weaker, damage wise.

In TFC, I find it hard to land a solid shotgun hit on someone that's bouncing around. I can't explain why, but the difficulty is there. When I do slug them, though, that person feels it. Projectiles are even harder. Rockets are slower, but when it connects, it hurts a ton and knocks the enemy into the air for a +shotty combo.

Compare it to FF. Everything's faster, sure. Shotties and rockets fire faster, projectiles are quicker. You fire off more rounds, so you hit a lot. But nothing has the stopping force that it did in TFC. It takes three people in FF to have the same DPS as two people in TFC. You need more defenders.

And by the time blue team gets enough defense to hold off any red offense coming their way, they won't have enough attackers to make a dent in red's base. So the would-be attackers then go D. And red's offense gives up too. DvD.
Is it as simple as the fact that "red is defense", then? I don't see a way to fix that.
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Old 02-09-2010, 08:22 AM   #59
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Is it as simple as the fact that "red is defense", then?
No.
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