2.42 First Impressions

[Trailer]

At first glance I thought the changes were decent, but that was because I was playing defense. After playing a little O I realized that getting past the defense is completely frustrating now.

There is a fine line between having a legitimate effective defense, and having a complete annoyance defense. HW crosses WAAAY over this line. Over pressure needs a much longer cool down. 8 seconds is too short. and with Medic nerfed, there isn't too many ways around the defense anymore.

[chilledsanity]

I finally got in some games and tried it for a few hours. Except for one major detail (maybe many more for some), I think it's the best patch ever to come to FF (since I thought 1.0 was fine). Really it's a little painful to think that this comes 3 years after the fact when O got all their toys in 2.0, but better late than never.

Pros:
Almost everything. Overpressure, being able to destroy jumppads in hot zones, more sg push, more grenade options, defense received a badly needed boost and it shows. For the first time in years, I actually felt real resistance playing as O and couldn't just fly in time and time again. I actually had to use tactics and circumvent defense or else wait for openings when a lot of D got taken out. This is how it SHOULD be, it reminded me much more of TFC than the capfest we've had for such a long time. I like pretty much all the new changes to D, they really help. The improved visuals on some maps look good too.

Cons:
I didn't get to play every map, but by far the biggest issue I found with the patch was that some I/D maps (cornfield, palermo, maybe others) feel like a slap in the face now because of the new enforced 2 minute time limit for each cap. I think this is insane and counter-productive to enjoying these game modes. In the past I thought I/D moved too fast which I didn't like since I enjoy games of attrition and exploiting openings when they are created. Now that D has more tools to slow down the pace, it matteres less since a 2 minute limit for each cap is enforced, regardless of the circumstances, then round/game over. So say one cap is a real bitch to get through, but the team breezes through the others. That doesn't matter now; if any cap isn't done in 2 minutes you're fucked. Having rounds stopped frequently because of the clock is not fun. I really think the time limit per cap makes the game less fun for maps that have it.

Other thoughts:
Since infections are becoming less and less relevant, I think maybe the medic could use something else to make him more distinct. I did see a few people complaining a disproportionate amount about the patch, though only some of their arguments seemed relevant. For instance, I saw an all-scout O team in CTF bitching about how awful and overpowered the patch was until they finally decided to try OTHER classes to break up D and not make capping a rushing no-brainer. Whatever changes come in the future, I'd like to plea with the devs NOT TO WHOLESALE NERF DEFENSE or disproportionally boost O again like you (or somebody) did in the past. I think the current state is excellent in terms of balance and I hope it stays at similar levels.

EDIT:

Regarding the 2.43 changes mentioned, reducing the slowfield I don't think would create many problems, I did find some issues getting out of the gate on palermo with them.

[Crazycarl]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Cons:
I didn't get to play every map, but by far the biggest issue I found with the patch was that some I/D maps (cornfield, palermo, maybe others) feel like a slap in the face now because of the new enforced 2 minute time limit for each cap. I think this is insane and counter-productive to enjoying these game modes. In the past I thought I/D moved too fast which I didn't like since I enjoy games of attrition and exploiting openings when they are created. Now that D has more tools to slow down the pace, it matteres less since a 2 minute limit for each cap is enforced, regardless of the circumstances, then round/game over. So say one cap is a real bitch to get through, but the team breezes through the others. That doesn't matter now; if any cap isn't done in 2 minutes you're fucked. Having rounds stopped frequently because of the clock is not fun. I really think the time limit per cap makes the game less fun for maps that have it.

Certainly ending the round is preferable--for both teams--to a shutout that lasts fifteen minutes. I wanted the scoring to be more straightforward--you get points by capping, so you want to be on offense as long as possible. If you do well on defense, your reward is getting back on offense.

Should the time limit be raised? Probably. I think I gave more time originally but I lowered it to create more tension, and so that more rounds would fit into a standard server time limit. But the new defensive tools certainly make it easier to stop fast caps now.

I can give harder cap points more time, but that will require more testing and research to get it right. I welcome your suggestions on this matter.

[FreaK367]

It feels like defense has been boosted a lot, and offense has been nerfed a little.

Jump pads may last forever, but they are quite easily destroyed, medic infection no longer kills, and doesn't last very long (not too bad of a change), but the super nail gun now has clips, and the reload time seems unnecessarily long.

It seems like nothing good has went the way of Offense, yet defense get a better SG, a massively improved Heavy that is actually useful now, and the Soldier secondary is quite good now. And with the ideas flying around the forums, if the devs listen, the Engineer will become more powerful.

Someone mentioned to me something about a spy grappling hook?, that could be useful if it was implemented.

And of course 2.42 is quite buggy, rail gun, crashing etc...

[episkopos]

Originally Posted by FreaK367

It feels like defense has been boosted a lot, and offense has been nerfed a little.

Jump pads may last forever, but they are quite easily destroyed, medic infection no longer kills, and doesn't last very long (not too bad of a change), but the super nail gun now has clips, and the reload time seems unnecessarily long.

It seems like nothing good has went the way of Offense, yet defense get a better SG, a massively improved Heavy that is actually useful now, and the Soldier secondary is quite good now. And with the ideas flying around the forums, if the devs listen, the Engineer will become more powerful.

Someone mentioned to me something about a spy grappling hook?, that could be useful if it was implemented.

And of course 2.42 is quite buggy, rail gun, crashing etc...

I agree. I would argue that the Medic in particular has been hurt by this patch, and it's not really deserved. He was a fairly tricky class to play to begin with.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

Certainly ending the round is preferable--for both teams--to a shutout that lasts fifteen minutes. I wanted the scoring to be more straightforward--you get points by capping, so you want to be on offense as long as possible. If you do well on defense, your reward is getting back on offense.

Should the time limit be raised? Probably. I think I gave more time originally but I lowered it to create more tension, and so that more rounds would fit into a standard server time limit. But the new defensive tools certainly make it easier to stop fast caps now.

I can give harder cap points more time, but that will require more testing and research to get it right. I welcome your suggestions on this matter.

I really think a time limit in ADDITION to map time is the wrong way to go about this for several reasons:

-If you have double stalemates (say someone switches sides in between, which I saw actually), you can have a round over in 4 minutes + gate waiting time. This is not fun. AvD maps already end once the round is over. To have I/D maps end after a quick side switch AND time limits means less I/D time than CTF on a simple rotating server, pure and simple.

-If someone is JUST ABOUT to cap after having a rocky start, it can end abruptly and be a real "fuck you" to the team.

-It produces kind of an ADHD attitude towards I/D, like proclaiming the game over before it's really gotten anywhere. It reminds me of some RTS games where someone will quit as soon as they've had one battle loss. Some of my favorite games are ones where the team makes a comeback, this basically makes that impossible.

-It adds additional time pressure where you feel like the flag has to be moved forward as fast as fucking possible, whereas due to D buffs, waiting 10 seconds to allow your O heavy-hitters to break up D might make more sense. This discourages more tactics and promotes the old rush-rush-rush mentality.

-While I'm happy with the boosts to D, I think this is totally unfair mechanic for them on I/D. Now instead of having to hold 4 caps for as long as you can, you have to hold ONE cap for 2 minutes. I think this unfair to O and less satisfying for D. Again, just because the teams switch sides doesn't stop players from switching teams as well.

I've found most lockouts occur because of skewed teams, not a fundamentally flawed aspect of I/D. I really think the old timer system was fine, but if you feel like something needs to change after 2 minutes, maybe you could have it AvD style where alternate routes on the map open up after a fixed amount of time. Whatever you decide on, these time limits feel like an awful addition for an otherwise great patch.

Also I played ksour for quite a while (which did NOT have the time limit) and it felt great on both sides.

Originally Posted by FreaK367

It seems like nothing good has went the way of Offense, yet defense get a better SG, a massively improved Heavy that is actually useful now, and the Soldier secondary is quite good now. And with the ideas flying around the forums, if the devs listen, the Engineer will become more powerful.

Well you have to understand that this in practice, is basically a balance patch against the changes made in 2.0 / 2.1 from 2-3 years ago. In those patches O received some real boosts (jump pads, flame jumping, reduced scout damage, extra spy abilities, etc.) and D was nerfed, particularly with sg push and hwguy effectiveness. The result was that some maps that had worked for years on TFC and 1.x FF became broken and it's been that way until now. It may seem D-centric, but this patch has been a LONG time coming for the O centric patches that have happened over the years.

As for the medic, I don't think the nailgun was much of a dealbreaker to begin with (that I noticed). Combining that with even less effective infection it feels like his nerfs may be unncessary.

[squeek.]

Thanks for your input, guys. Some valuable stuff here.

[Mikael_hs]

lasergren thingy is too weak, hwguy is slightly too strong (or allow meds to shoot some more nails before reload either is fine I suppose).

[carryonplease]

yea, the hw having overpressue and the slowfield is overkill. I say give the slowfield to a different class. even demo could benefit from the slowfield. maybe give the mirv back to HW and give demo the slowfield. in match play hw can still spam mirvs on the flag if needed? I dunno. oh and longer cooldown for that too

and yes the laser gren is too weak. Since the learning curve to avoid it seems not too steep, 2 laser touches should kill a scout.

other than that, i think its great

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by carryonplease

yea, the hw having overpressue and the slowfield is overkill. I say give the slowfield to a different class. even demo could benefit from the slowfield. maybe give the mirv back to HW and give demo the slowfield. in match play hw can still spam mirvs on the flag if needed? I dunno. oh and longer cooldown for that too

and yes the laser gren is too weak. Since the learning curve to avoid it seems not too steep, 2 laser touches should kill a scout.

other than that, i think its great

The idea is that, when a player is avoiding the laser grenade, they are moving very predictably and are much easier to hit with rockets. It's not meant to be super effective on it's own, but to gain effectiveness when the soldier takes advantage of it.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by carryonplease

yea, the hw having overpressue and the slowfield is overkill. I say give the slowfield to a different class.

Just don't take away overpressure. They need that.

One thing I really like now is you actually have a nice array of defenders who can really stop shit if they need to. Before the patch, it felt like if an O player was good enough, EVERYTHING rested on the demoman as being the last line of defense against stopping somebody from flying in and grabbing the flag. Now, the hwguy serves the exact same purpose and it's fantastic. The sg push also has more bite now so I feel like defense is MUCH more well rounded so that if one guy dies you're not just screwed against an attacker coming in at full speed.

[Trailer]

God forbid a skilled offensive player be able to get a cap out.

[chilledsanity]

I saw plenty of caps when I was playing today, they just weren't happening once per minute.

EDIT:

I guess my point is you have to mix up your classes more with O now. It's a more functionally diverse defense, which calls for a more diverse offense. In pub games, simply throwing nothing but scouts and medics at the flag like a meat grinder doesn't seem to work so well now, which I consider a good thing. I saw several situations today that called more for spy, soldier, or pyro to break D up and create openings for the lighter classes (or use for better mobility in games where grenades weren't available).

[Crazycarl]

Chilled: In I/D maps, how would you solve these problems:

• unequal scoring opportunities for each team
• defensive shutouts (maybe the teams are stacked or whatever, but I've seen it happen plenty of times)
• the need for intuitive, meaningful scoring

(and if you think about it, that's really just one problem)

I think many of your issues with the new system are valid, so how can those be solved? 5 minutes per cap? 20 minutes per round? overtime/second chances? What if holding the flag stopped the clock? Should extra time roll over, a la TF2? Is there any acceptable way for Offense to "lose" before the map ends?

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

Chilled: In I/D maps, how would you solve these problems:

• unequal scoring opportunities for each team
• defensive shutouts (maybe the teams are stacked or whatever, but I've seen it happen plenty of times)
• the need for intuitive, meaningful scoring

(and if you think about it, that's really just one problem)

I think many of your issues with the new system are valid, so how can those be solved?

Well first off I should say I generally don't care at all about the score in any game mode, I generally just care about the objective. However, I can understand where this matters to some people, so here's what I would do to try and satisfy all sides:

1. Unequal scoring opportunities.

I think the easiest way is just to take a page from other modes like AvD and murderball. Let's use the current 2 minute limit you have now as an example. Say 2 minutes pass on a cap and O still hasn't captured it. Instead of essentially saying "fuck you, game over" and ending things, the game continues as normal, but instead D starts having points added to their score based on the length of time, murderball-style. If O caps in under 2 minutes, D gets nothing extra. If they cap in 3 minutes, D keeps getting points the longer the cap remains under their control. While it's an asymmetric method, it does provide both sides with scoring opportunities. The same thing happens with AvD. Even though all I care about is the objective, some games where the cap falls, O technically "loses" because they took too long.

This method has the advantage of providing a fair scoring opportunities for both sides, but doesn't interfere with the fun of the game for people like me who just want to see the cap point taken (or protected).


2. Defensive shutouts.

Well first off, I think this is a tad unfair since other game modes like waterpolo, hunted, even CTF can get unduly stacked and stay there as well, whereas you're making it sound like I/D should be the exception to the rule on principle. Regardless, I think new paths to the caps AvD-style (again, say after your 2 minute limit) that open up is a very solid way of preventing this. This brings down more heat on D and gives O a boost while still keeping it fun. The downside is you'd have to go in and add all these routes which could be a pain in the ass and take a while. If you want more of a stop-gap solution you could have server options to prevent team-stacking and/or auto-kicking AFKs.


3. the need for intuitive, meaningful scoring

Again, I don't really perceive this "need," but I think going with the method listed on #1 could be used to illustrate which team beat the other out when it's not obvious. O gets large points for capping, D gets gradual points for protecting the cap past a certain time limit.

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

5 minutes per cap? 20 minutes per round? overtime/second chances? What if holding the flag stopped the clock? Should extra time roll over, a la TF2?

I'm not sure if you want me to answer all these individually or not. In general I think it's POSSIBLE a combination of these methods could work out okay, but it sounds like it would be quite complicated to come up with good numbers. Maybe a combination of a total time pool + clock stopping and/or overtime, I'm not sure. The bottom line is I don't want the map to be over way faster than normal because one player got lucky, I kind of want time to get my enjoyment out of the map.

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

Is there any acceptable way for Offense to "lose" before the map ends?

Well for me personally, yes. You would have to change CTF so that it's also score/round based and not timer based. That way it's a more level playing field. Then you don't have 3 20-minute rounds of CTF followed by a 10 minute I/D game. Otherwise it feels like it's getting shortchanged a bit.

[zE]

One of the strong points of FF to me since the begining was that it was fun to attack since it wasn´t that hard, patch after patch offy gets nerfed and defense get the goodies.

But its good to see stuff beyng made overall. And btw squeek / bully good job on ff_training I had a good time playng it.

[Crazycarl]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

Well first off I should say I generally don't care at all about the score in any game mode

I don't either, but since we have scoring, it should make sense and immediately reflect how well your team is doing.

This method has the advantage of providing a fair scoring opportunities for both sides, but doesn't interfere with the fun of the game for people like me who just want to see the cap point taken (or protected).

I don't see how attacking or defending one point the entire game is any more fun than taking turns. Don't think of it as screwing over the offense, think of it as breaking the monotony and giving them another chance.

2. Defensive shutouts.

Well first off, I think this is a tad unfair since other game modes like waterpolo, hunted, even CTF can get unduly stacked and stay there as well, whereas you're making it sound like I/D should be the exception to the rule on principle.

It already is an exception because it's asymmetrical. If you can't cap on an ID map, you will think, "O is too hard". On waterpolo, you can't blame the map if you are losing. I'm trying to take this asymmetrical game mode and make it symmetrical.

A symmetrical solution has the advantage of playing out the same on any kind of map. I don't want to have to tune the scoring per-map, and I don't want defense to be scoring more points than offense just because the map is more defensive.

I'm not sure if you want me to answer all these individually or not.

I wanted you to offer solutions, and I thought I could get the ball rolling.

You would have to change CTF so that it's also score/round based and not timer based. That way it's a more level playing field. Then you don't have 3 20-minute rounds of CTF followed by a 10 minute I/D game. Otherwise it feels like it's getting shortchanged a bit.

I'm currently editing the script so that, if needed, it will add more time onto mp_timelimit instead of ending early, which is what I should have done in the first place. I'll also increase the time limit. I do want running out of time to be a rare occurrence.

[Atreuce]

tldr..

i like cheese!

[chilledsanity]

I don't either, but since we have scoring, it should make sense and immediately reflect how well your team is doing.

Well I think what I described would do that.

I don't see how attacking or defending one point the entire game is any more fun than taking turns.

The entire game of cornfield I played lasted about 6 minutes. That is not fun. The level simply wasn't designed to Palermo lasted longer, but was relatively quick as well. If I'm enjoying a game mode and it feels like somebody is artifically pulling a plug on it because one cap lasted 2 minutes, this is not fun.

Don't think of it as screwing over the offense, think of it as breaking the monotony and giving them another chance.

It's screwing over both sides by resulting in a shorter game. If by "breaking the monotony" it means "ending the level", you're right.

It already is an exception because it's asymmetrical. If you can't cap on an ID map, you will think, "O is too hard". On waterpolo, you can't blame the map if you are losing. I'm trying to take this asymmetrical game mode and make it symmetrical.

In its current iteration it feels like you're emphasizing score tidiness over actual fun. Besides how does hunted and AvD fit into that sort of mentality?

A symmetrical solution has the advantage of playing out the same on any kind of map. I don't want to have to tune the scoring per-map, and I don't want defense to be scoring more points than offense just because the map is more defensive.

I find it kind of incredible a change this big was made without more in-depth analysis of what the consequences are, but here are some solutions for you:

Solution 1:

Take the total time of the map normally (20 minutes?) and divide it in half. Have a countdown timer. If offense hasn't capped the end point by the 10 minute mark, the sides switch and defense is declared the winner for that round. If they cap it BEFORE that mark, make a note of how long it took them. Keep repeating the process and show total time scores at the end and have a comparison. Whichever team was faster overall would be the winner. For odd game endings, the final game result would not count towards the total UNLESS it was faster than the time elapsed on the current round. So if there have been 5 rounds completed, but the 6th round is taking longer than the 5th did when the time runs out, the faster team is still declared the winner. Basically the scoring would work exactly the same as it does now (minus the 2 minute cap), but instead of just ENDING the game after 2 rounds, players could keep going. The more caps that go on, the more it can impact the score.

Solution 2:

Tally up the times for even rounds. Ignore results of the most current odd round (they could be "temporary" points even). If an odd number of rounds has been completed, go into overtime on the final round to get an even score.

[Crazycarl]

Besides how does hunted and AvD fit into that sort of mentality?

They don't. AvD maps just need to be tuned to typically last a certain amount of time, and hunted is just hunted. Who cares what the score is? If I could make those maps symmetrical without too much trouble, I would.

I find it kind of incredible a change this big was made without more in-depth analysis of what the consequences are

I got few complaints from beta testers, so I released it just to get some real feedback.

It's screwing over both sides by resulting in a shorter game. If by "breaking the monotony" it means "ending the level", you're right.

I already said I'd fix the map ending early(which is related to the two minute timer). Messing with the time limit is really annoying to do and can be unpredictable. If the map timer runs down the map will end, whether you're in the middle of a round or not. So it takes some surprisingly complex logic to determine what round should be the last one and when to add time to mp_timelimit.

Or maybe you just need some more time to get used to it.