Assisted Movement, does it break AVD?

[Bridget]

Here's a quick little discussion: Who agrees that assisted movement breaks AVD maps? There are so many movement skills in this game with the jump pad included, that I think demoman piping their team mates or detpacking them across the map is absolute nonsense. Here's a scenario for you. This happens a lot.

The map is anticitizen and the defending team has put up an amazing defense. The first level defense was amazing and any offending player got owned. The second level (the inside) was intense but the O manages to break through the little room and capture the flag. The time is dwindling, and it's neck to neck. The defense rushes out of their spawn and set up. The timer ticks down to 0 and the offensive team climbs the ladder.

It goes good for a few trade-offs. The Snipers pop off some exiting offensive players and anyone who makes it up the hill is mowed down by a sentry or heavy. The D soldiers distract enemies on the ground. It seems to be going good, until a dozen pipes come spewing out of the little bunker that houses the spawn exit ladder. Everyone tenses up on defense. Oh shit.

BAM! A Scout steps on a dozen pipes and goes sailing through the fucking air like he's superman, flying past the Snipers, hauling ass past the sentry guns and coming to land a few feet infront of the cap. Usually, he can practically walk onto the point before the defense can respond. Don't you think this is a bit unfair?

It happens in a ton of AVD maps. Palermo, for instance. Once they break the first capture point, demomen just sit outside the spawn piping players to the second capture point. Scouts can sail through the air and land smack on the capture point with some decent air strafing. It happens on the next capture point, the Scout or other class goes sailing over the concrete wall and tosses the flag at the capture point. The last one isn't so bad, but it can be exploited in the same way.

Yeah, I wrote a ton of shit, because I prefer my messages be somewhat informative or 'funny' to read. I could post' yo avd is broken fix it no demomangz plz' but that would get written off like a bad check. So, to condense this thread down for people too lazy to read my wall-o-text: Does assisted movement break AVD? What can be done about it if so?

NOTE: I haven't played since 2.4 was released. If the 'hitting people in midair' does sufficient stopping power to negate this, then tell me. If it isn't good enough, how can it be fixed? I never experienced it or tested it out.

[GenghisTron]

Stuff like this is what makes AvD fun, and it's balanced as long the teams switch when the 'HQ' is captured (Like ksour, as oppossed to dustbowl).

[GenghisTron]

Also, it's safe to say that the 'brokeness' of these types of 'exploits', are due to poor map design, lack of foresight on the mappers end, etc. I don't think when maps like palermo was made, 'exploits' were kept in mind. You have to remember that almost all AvD maps currently out are based on TFC maps.

[Firefox11]

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

Stuff like this is what makes AvD fun, and it's balanced as long the teams switch when the 'HQ' is captured (Like ksour, as oppossed to dustbowl).

And even when the teams don't switch, in my opinion. The main difference is that in TFC the map skybox was lower - In dustbowl, for instance, you had to time the jump very well, otherwise you would hit the ceiling ruining the jump. Even then, there was always a demo with the CP piped.

I'd say in FF is easier due to map design (higher skyboxes/big open areas in new maps) and people not being used to AvD, the latter being the greatest issue. I mean, I remember TFC games in sandbowl_r, whose CP3 is HUGE, taking a ton of time to capture even with successive jumps due to amazing defensive teamwork, which gave it the thrill that made it fun to play.

Oh yeah. The J.Pad breaks this, too (And everyone is aware of this). You had to take damage/armor damage in order to do successive jumps in TFC, now people flies across the map like it's no thing.

[Green Mushy]

Originally Posted by Firefox11

Oh yeah. The J.Pad breaks this, too (And everyone is aware of this). You had to take damage/armor damage in order to do successive jumps in TFC, now people flies across the map like it's no thing.

This is totally right. One thing i have observed in FF, which i think is important that we retain, is that players must make some sort of sacrifice to obtain fast aerial movement. In both the cases of using a jumppad and getting boosted by a demoman teammate, this rule is broken. ( you can also jump off of teammates detpacks ) This allows full hp attackers into the air at fast speeds, which FF currently does not have a strong counter to, so i believe it is overpowered.

In coming up with a solution, it is also important that the demoman does not deal his teammates damage, as the dev team agrees that we dont want to give players the ability to grief in any way, or have the ability to accidentally have a negative impact on his team. So, some solutions for those 3 problems i have at the top of my head: Jumppads are team oriented and destroyable( so they have a counter ), and friendly push forces from teammates have a max cap of a very low push. So you could jump on an 8 pipe trap, and would get pushed no more then 2 pipes no matter the pipe number. This would be a good improvement to those broken movement mechanics, but i believe it doesnt completely fix the underlying problem.

[rezz0r]

I think offense is a bit weak in this game. I would not remove any feature that would cause stalemates because the defense is owning everyone on the offense.

[Sidd]

Originally Posted by Bridget

Who agrees that assisted movement breaks AVD maps?

Assisted movement is an essential part of AVD. The problem is none of the counters to a long range jump work very well.

The solution is clear; give the civilian an umbrella, which instagibs anybody landing on his head.

[thiz]

If people do this a lot I always do a friendly fire vote, it makes AvD and waterpolo pretty dull watching people do detpack/4+ pipe jumps.

[Elmo]

Originally Posted by Sidd

The solution is clear; give the civilian an umbrella, which instagibs anybody landing on his head.

made me "lol" ;D

[Raynian]

Jumppads, yes, because everyone can use it instantly and zoom across the map.

Team boosts, no, because they take time to set up, are harder to manage (not many newbs would be able to aircontrol well after being hit by 6 pipes), and can only be used by one person at a time.

[Bridget]

Though I don't think it fixes the problem, I think the jump pad should have a 'recharge' delay between jumps to stop entire teams just stepping one after another onto it and getting propelled toward the defense with minimal effort. I agree with reducing the friendly push of pipes, perhaps make detpacks have non-existent friendly push.

@Raynian: I'm not sure about the 'one person' thing. If you space out pretty well, multiple people can get air off the pipes. In some scenarios, too, there is little need for air control. On the first capture point of Palermo, piping to the second requires some air control, but blasting team mates over the concrete wall to the next is pretty damn linear, as is the last capture point on Anticitizen. You can press forward, jump, and let go of your mouse/keyboard and let generic forward momentum take you to the target.

There's also the flamethrower. Demoman pipes plus the flamethrower is stupid. Even if the pyro can't make it to the capture point, he can propel himself up above the map and 'parachute' down with some air control. This is what ruins waterpolo. It's usually fun trying to pick off the pipe jumping Scouts, but when you see a Pyro a million miles up flaming across the sky for a full minute, then ... ugh.

What about increasing the weight of flag holders? I don't mean reducing their run speed; That's another discussion. I'm suggesting that they fall faster in the air due to the flag. This might not fix the problem, but it's a start.

[Born_In_Xixax]

The AvD 'boost' issues are easily solved by enabling friendly-fire, if you are so inclined. This is how the game was 'intended' to be played (see leagues.)

However, I doubt this will ever fly on actual servers as people really like the 'boost' aspect of AvD - despite the fact that it 'breaks' maps. Note, historically even league AvD play in TFC never enabled friendly-fire.

I actually agree with you that it does break maps, but godam - it's so fucking fun...

Regarding the jump pad, I think adding a 'recharge' timer is a good idea to tone down the 'free' advantage. I've definitely seen endless streams of heavy offense jump-padding up to the next cap being a problem in AvD. Also, making the pad destroyable (health similar to a sentry) would make it something the opposition can at least do something about.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by Born_In_Xixax

The AvD 'boost' issues are easily solved by enabling friendly-fire, if you are so inclined. This is how the game was 'intended' to be played (see leagues.)

As said, the development team doesn't want to include elements of the game that are easily abused. Friendly fire might be enabled in leagues because the players there have a reputation and expectation to play by the rules. In a pub, any lone griefer can start piping his team-mates.

Yes, it is fun. I used to faceroll D with it, but that doesn't stop it from being broken or unfair to the defense. It's one of those double edged swords. Damn fun on offense, but stopping it as defense (especially on pubs) is not going to happen unless the entire D is situated to stopping pipe-jumping flag-carriers.

The idea for damaging the jump pad is cool. For some 'spice', I think the jump pad should lose some of its push the more damaged it is, shown by the model. As it becomes more damaged, it begins to 'break' down visually and only propels you with a percentage of its maximum push. There could be four levels (25%/100% ofcourse) of its maximum power and visual condition.

The jump pad could even 'break down' from people using it. The 'decay rate' could be based on the class using it. If it gets used by a ton of heavy O classes, then it breaks down quickly. If it gets used by lighter O classes like Scout, then it degrades or decays very slowly. The more you put it to use, the quicker you lose it. I think that's a good sacrifice or a start.

[Firefox11]

Originally Posted by Born_In_Xixax

However, I doubt this will ever fly on actual servers as people really like the 'boost' aspect of AvD - despite the fact that it 'breaks' maps. Note, historically even league AvD play in TFC never enabled friendly-fire.

I played a season or two in the Skirmish AvD TFC league, and we had armor strip on to prevent detpacking a HWGuy at full HP/AP around.

Also, the .invade-defend public servers also had armor stripping on. Sure, some players who wanted to grief did so - until an admin warned/kicked/banned them.

In my opinion (I think my post was misunderstood), as long as there is some sort of damage (be it HP, AP or both) in order to get the benefits of a friendly push, it's fine. Sure, the flagcarrier will still fly around with full HP - but without armor, it only takes some well placed shotgun shells/SG bullets/a rocket in order to stop this. Hell, even a single pipe, allowing the demo piping the CP do the '9th pipe-1st det' trick if he shots at the target while airborne with the shotgun. I think armor strip is the best solution for AvD to retain it's uniqueness and fun factor; it should be up to the server admins to take care of the griefers.

Originally Posted by Bridget

Damn fun on offense, but stopping it as defense (especially on pubs) is not going to happen unless the entire D is situated to stopping pipe-jumping flag-carriers.

A single skilled demo can actually stop two or more consecutive jumps with the right settings (meaning, armor strip on so he doesn't need 4 pipes to kill the jumper). Either way, if the offense knows how to grenadejump/demoboost teammates/sniperboost and the defense doesn't know how to stop flagcarriers, I would say it's due to team-stacking more than due to the mode being broken.

[Born_In_Xixax]

Originally Posted by Bridget

As said, the development team doesn't want to include elements of the game that are easily abused. Friendly fire might be enabled in leagues because the players there have a reputation and expectation to play by the rules. In a pub, any lone griefer can start piping his team-mates.

A good point...taking for granted that friendly-fire will never actually get enabled on a real pub (or even league) server, what can be done to avoid boost breakage? I guess the next step is to modify the AvD maps themselves.

My first comment here would be that virtually all FF AvD maps that exist seem to have been _intentionally_ made to allow and encourage the super-boost to cap. The one exception I can think of would be Napoli, which seems to have been designed to at least prevent boosters from falling on the cap directly (all the CPs are covered.)

Another option for the mapmaker is to restrict the demo class from the map.

[Bridget]

It's about working out a solution that is simple to implement and doesn't rob another aspect of the game. Ridding AVD maps of the Demoman isn't ideal and recreating the maps to suppress the problem doesn't actually get rid of the problem. There have been a few suggestions. Reduce friendly push on pipes so eight pipes is equal to two or so (Green Mushy) and weigh the flag-carrier down in air so he doesn't gain such distance (I).

It can get annoying even with an enemy Demoman piping regular offensive members over the wall or across the map before your defense can set up. It creates additional fronts on some maps that the defense has to sacrifice resources to defend. With the third capture point on Palermo, the defense has to fix their guns in place to defend against the long stairs up the side and the tunnel coming up the other side. When you got demoman firing off team mates over the wall, then you have to defend against that as well. It's overwhelming.

Think about the first capture point. The enemies just pipe jump up over the wall. Because the wall is so tall, the sentry guns rarely have time to lock on by the time the enemy has landed on the capture point. It's almost pointless trying to defend the stairs, because of this. Pipe jumps are irritating still because if the person flying over the map isn't carrying a flag, you can bet your ass he's carrying a mirv and will rain it and a few frag nades down on the sentries to easily cap on his next jump. Pipe jumps = offense on steroids

It is map-based, but coincidentally, it's a problem on a lot of maps. The first capture point on kSour can become stale if the defense is good (why punish the D for holding its own?) so demomen just begin to pipe themselves to the little foundation and throw mirvs wildly trying to break up the sentry guns. I don't think that's a valid why people should be playing FF. That's pretty damn desperate. There needs to be another way to break through stalemates.

I'm getting a bit off topic. Assisted movement is a problem because pipe jumping in general is a problem. Meh, let the discussion go where it wants, I guess.

[Born_In_Xixax]

I wonder if reducing the demoman pipe's push would be so bad...perhaps removing the 'stack' effect? I think a demo doing a single pipe jump should get a push similar to a rocket jump for general movement, but currently the two/three-pipe jump (or more, for teammates) gives a truly ridiculous distance. With three pipes, the demo can jump higher/further (by an order of magnitude) than any other class.

Places where pipe push stacking (2 or more pipes) seems really broken:

- Most AvD maps
- Water polo
- Express
- Piping teammates

[Hawk Eye]

With 3 pipes the demoman usually dies on impact with the ground, unless the intended target is highly elevated.

[Bridget]

That's the thing about the Demoman piping his team mates. They get dealt no damage so they can go flying through the air off eight pipes without any downside. Demoman being able to propel themselves across the map is a huge problem, but at-least there's that downside of having to take a ton of damage. It's a bit risky, because anyone who catches you could shoot you in mid air, and there goes the flag in the water for a minute.

[eomoyaff]

Hey there,

Ok, I can see your point on this Bridget, but I'd have to slightly disagree with you because of map dependencies. Now Anticitizen is a good AvD map. It takes pretty good organization on the Defense side of things to keep the offense out. But, There's nothing you can do against 2/3 spies up until 3. They dominate the AvD offensive side. Once you get to 3 you can pretty much rule the spy out if everyone spy checks. As long as you have a really good demo and a bunch of sg's around the cap on 3 you can hold it until times up. and if they land the flag close, it gets easier to defend. I've won on defense plenty of times on that map.

But as for Dustbowl. That map is shit and can easily be taken. At 1) you pipe the flag carrier with 4 pipes, make sure he's a small distance from the pipes so he can get more x then y. At 2, you have a sniper shoot you in the back on the left side of the gate, pushing the flag carrier all the way to the tunnels. On 3, you get a sniper to shoot you from the left side of the gate to send you around the hill landing near the middle but with a bhop of 800ish. At 1 and 2, at the end you pretty much go with spies if you dont get it in with the flag carrier.. They'll get it in, in no time. As for 3, if the flag carrier is a scout, when he lands at mid 3, he can quickly place a JP and hit it before the defense gets to him. Thusly getting the cap if theres not d at the cap (which there usually isn't unless someone on d dies, or someone sets up a d on cap which still usually isn't enough vs a scout on a JP.)

Now with maps like avanti and Palermo, it's pretty balanced both ways.