Assisted Movement, does it break AVD?

[Bridget]

Here's a quick little discussion: Who agrees that assisted movement breaks AVD maps? There are so many movement skills in this game with the jump pad included, that I think demoman piping their team mates or detpacking them across the map is absolute nonsense. Here's a scenario for you. This happens a lot.

The map is anticitizen and the defending team has put up an amazing defense. The first level defense was amazing and any offending player got owned. The second level (the inside) was intense but the O manages to break through the little room and capture the flag. The time is dwindling, and it's neck to neck. The defense rushes out of their spawn and set up. The timer ticks down to 0 and the offensive team climbs the ladder.

It goes good for a few trade-offs. The Snipers pop off some exiting offensive players and anyone who makes it up the hill is mowed down by a sentry or heavy. The D soldiers distract enemies on the ground. It seems to be going good, until a dozen pipes come spewing out of the little bunker that houses the spawn exit ladder. Everyone tenses up on defense. Oh shit.

BAM! A Scout steps on a dozen pipes and goes sailing through the fucking air like he's superman, flying past the Snipers, hauling ass past the sentry guns and coming to land a few feet infront of the cap. Usually, he can practically walk onto the point before the defense can respond. Don't you think this is a bit unfair?

It happens in a ton of AVD maps. Palermo, for instance. Once they break the first capture point, demomen just sit outside the spawn piping players to the second capture point. Scouts can sail through the air and land smack on the capture point with some decent air strafing. It happens on the next capture point, the Scout or other class goes sailing over the concrete wall and tosses the flag at the capture point. The last one isn't so bad, but it can be exploited in the same way.

Yeah, I wrote a ton of shit, because I prefer my messages be somewhat informative or 'funny' to read. I could post' yo avd is broken fix it no demomangz plz' but that would get written off like a bad check. So, to condense this thread down for people too lazy to read my wall-o-text: Does assisted movement break AVD? What can be done about it if so?

NOTE: I haven't played since 2.4 was released. If the 'hitting people in midair' does sufficient stopping power to negate this, then tell me. If it isn't good enough, how can it be fixed? I never experienced it or tested it out.

[GenghisTron]

Stuff like this is what makes AvD fun, and it's balanced as long the teams switch when the 'HQ' is captured (Like ksour, as oppossed to dustbowl).

[GenghisTron]

Also, it's safe to say that the 'brokeness' of these types of 'exploits', are due to poor map design, lack of foresight on the mappers end, etc. I don't think when maps like palermo was made, 'exploits' were kept in mind. You have to remember that almost all AvD maps currently out are based on TFC maps.

[Firefox11]

Originally Posted by GenghisTron

Stuff like this is what makes AvD fun, and it's balanced as long the teams switch when the 'HQ' is captured (Like ksour, as oppossed to dustbowl).

And even when the teams don't switch, in my opinion. The main difference is that in TFC the map skybox was lower - In dustbowl, for instance, you had to time the jump very well, otherwise you would hit the ceiling ruining the jump. Even then, there was always a demo with the CP piped.

I'd say in FF is easier due to map design (higher skyboxes/big open areas in new maps) and people not being used to AvD, the latter being the greatest issue. I mean, I remember TFC games in sandbowl_r, whose CP3 is HUGE, taking a ton of time to capture even with successive jumps due to amazing defensive teamwork, which gave it the thrill that made it fun to play.

Oh yeah. The J.Pad breaks this, too (And everyone is aware of this). You had to take damage/armor damage in order to do successive jumps in TFC, now people flies across the map like it's no thing.

[Green Mushy]

Originally Posted by Firefox11

Oh yeah. The J.Pad breaks this, too (And everyone is aware of this). You had to take damage/armor damage in order to do successive jumps in TFC, now people flies across the map like it's no thing.

This is totally right. One thing i have observed in FF, which i think is important that we retain, is that players must make some sort of sacrifice to obtain fast aerial movement. In both the cases of using a jumppad and getting boosted by a demoman teammate, this rule is broken. ( you can also jump off of teammates detpacks ) This allows full hp attackers into the air at fast speeds, which FF currently does not have a strong counter to, so i believe it is overpowered.

In coming up with a solution, it is also important that the demoman does not deal his teammates damage, as the dev team agrees that we dont want to give players the ability to grief in any way, or have the ability to accidentally have a negative impact on his team. So, some solutions for those 3 problems i have at the top of my head: Jumppads are team oriented and destroyable( so they have a counter ), and friendly push forces from teammates have a max cap of a very low push. So you could jump on an 8 pipe trap, and would get pushed no more then 2 pipes no matter the pipe number. This would be a good improvement to those broken movement mechanics, but i believe it doesnt completely fix the underlying problem.

[rezz0r]

I think offense is a bit weak in this game. I would not remove any feature that would cause stalemates because the defense is owning everyone on the offense.

[Sidd]

Originally Posted by Bridget

Who agrees that assisted movement breaks AVD maps?

Assisted movement is an essential part of AVD. The problem is none of the counters to a long range jump work very well.

The solution is clear; give the civilian an umbrella, which instagibs anybody landing on his head.

[thiz]

If people do this a lot I always do a friendly fire vote, it makes AvD and waterpolo pretty dull watching people do detpack/4+ pipe jumps.

[Elmo]

Originally Posted by Sidd

The solution is clear; give the civilian an umbrella, which instagibs anybody landing on his head.

made me "lol" ;D

[Raynian]

Jumppads, yes, because everyone can use it instantly and zoom across the map.

Team boosts, no, because they take time to set up, are harder to manage (not many newbs would be able to aircontrol well after being hit by 6 pipes), and can only be used by one person at a time.

[Bridget]

Though I don't think it fixes the problem, I think the jump pad should have a 'recharge' delay between jumps to stop entire teams just stepping one after another onto it and getting propelled toward the defense with minimal effort. I agree with reducing the friendly push of pipes, perhaps make detpacks have non-existent friendly push.

@Raynian: I'm not sure about the 'one person' thing. If you space out pretty well, multiple people can get air off the pipes. In some scenarios, too, there is little need for air control. On the first capture point of Palermo, piping to the second requires some air control, but blasting team mates over the concrete wall to the next is pretty damn linear, as is the last capture point on Anticitizen. You can press forward, jump, and let go of your mouse/keyboard and let generic forward momentum take you to the target.

There's also the flamethrower. Demoman pipes plus the flamethrower is stupid. Even if the pyro can't make it to the capture point, he can propel himself up above the map and 'parachute' down with some air control. This is what ruins waterpolo. It's usually fun trying to pick off the pipe jumping Scouts, but when you see a Pyro a million miles up flaming across the sky for a full minute, then ... ugh.

What about increasing the weight of flag holders? I don't mean reducing their run speed; That's another discussion. I'm suggesting that they fall faster in the air due to the flag. This might not fix the problem, but it's a start.

[Born_In_Xixax]

The AvD 'boost' issues are easily solved by enabling friendly-fire, if you are so inclined. This is how the game was 'intended' to be played (see leagues.)

However, I doubt this will ever fly on actual servers as people really like the 'boost' aspect of AvD - despite the fact that it 'breaks' maps. Note, historically even league AvD play in TFC never enabled friendly-fire.

I actually agree with you that it does break maps, but godam - it's so fucking fun...

Regarding the jump pad, I think adding a 'recharge' timer is a good idea to tone down the 'free' advantage. I've definitely seen endless streams of heavy offense jump-padding up to the next cap being a problem in AvD. Also, making the pad destroyable (health similar to a sentry) would make it something the opposition can at least do something about.