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Old 10-23-2007, 08:45 PM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scuzzy
Keep in mind that some people do not dislike gays because they are physically/genetically/hormonally attracted to other members of their sex. They disapprove of people's actions and mindset when they intentionally act upon sinful urges, whether that is to steal, kill, lie, or perform homosexual acts. I don't see those people as stupid, they have an opinion and are welcome to it.
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As much as people are welcome to an opinion, that doesn't protect what they say/believe from being classified as stupid. It is good to look beyond the level of understanding that people regard those acts as sinful and instead, looking at why they think what they do, going deeper down into their reasoning, because having religious text saying it is not reason enough. Is it a good thing for religious/nonreligious moral teachings to label those actions I bolded in your quote as sinful?
Stealing - of course, stealing involves one person negatively affecting another.
Killing - Even worse than above, it is not just harming someone but snuffing out their life entirely
Lying - Usually not tremendously harmful relatively speaking but nonetheless something that causes more than harm than it solves, again one person harming another.

I can understand why they object to those, and make avoiding those actions central to their beliefs. Those things are against my moral standards as well. As for homosexual acts, the reason I don't think it deserves to labeled as sinful is because it doesn't hurt anyone. No one is negatively affected by homosexual acts.

That is what I believe Qwerty was trying to say, he was looking at the reasoning behind the beliefs and not just the beliefs at face value to ask questions like "Was the there intelligent though process behind making disapproval of homosexual acts part of [insert religion]?"

I think it is good to remember that people have a right to an opinion but at the same time it shouldn't stop us from examining other people's opinions and seeing whether or not they are intelligent ones. I'm sure everyone has had to deal with some asshat who says a bunch of stupid horse shit and defends themselves with the line "It's my opinion".
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Old 10-23-2007, 08:57 PM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YomMamasHouse
It is good to look beyond the level of understanding that people regard those acts as sinful and instead, looking at why they think what they do, going deeper down into their reasoning, because having religious text saying it is not reason enough.
I disagree. You may feel that a person's religious beliefs are stupid, and they may feel peoples lack of religious beliefs are stupid, but for this matter I don't think it has to go beyond a person stating, "This is what my God has stated is good and evil and I shall abide by those rules." Either way, neither belief is "stupid", it's just a belief.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YomMamasHouse
Is it a good thing for religious/nonreligious moral teachings to label those actions I bolded in your quote as sinful?
Stealing - of course, stealing involves one person negatively affecting another.
Killing - Even worse than above, it is not just harming someone but snuffing out their life entirely
Lying - Usually not tremendously harmful relatively speaking but nonetheless something that causes more than harm than it solves, again one person harming another.

I can understand why they object to those, and make avoiding those actions central to their beliefs. Those things are against my moral standards as well. As for homosexual acts, the reason I don't think it deserves to labeled as sinful is because it doesn't hurt anyone. No one is negatively affected by homosexual acts.
I don't think that they need to feel a certain behavior has a direct negative impact upon anything else to believe that it is sinful, they just need to know that their God has stated that the act is an abomination in his eyes. That's pretty much the rule of law in religion. Human logic, reasoning, and understanding isn't required and it's impossible to know (for somethings) why a God feels the way he does.


Quote:
Originally Posted by YomMamasHouse
I think it is good to remember that people have a right to an opinion but at the same time it shouldn't stop us from examining other people's opinions and seeing whether or not they are intelligent ones. I'm sure everyone has had to deal with some asshat who says a bunch of stupid horse shit and defends themselves with the line "It's my opinion".
I agree, but qwerty isn't doing just the opposite. He isn't remembering they have that right and that their opinion is just as equal as his, he's saying it's "stupid". He's saying, my opinion is right and all others are wrong... that's no different than bigotry.

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Old 10-23-2007, 09:03 PM   #103
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I disagree. You may feel that a person's religious beliefs are stupid, and they may feel peoples lack of religious beliefs are stupid, but for this matter I don't think it has to go beyond a person stating, "This is what my God has stated is good and evil and I shall abide by those rules." Either way, neither belief is "stupid", it's just a belief.
The Terry Pratchett book 'Monstrous Regiment' overturns that argument in some style by taking that philosophy to one of its logical conclusions. It's a decent story too. You don't really need to read it. Just take what you're saying through to it's logical, and mightily fucked up, conclusion.
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Old 10-23-2007, 09:15 PM   #104
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Quote:
He isn't remembering they have that right and that their opinion is just as equal as his
No one in this thread as of yet has forgotten that people have the right to an opinion, or has outright stated that they don't. When he, I and others who have argued this before say these things we are aware that people have the right to their opinions. But with that said opinions on things like this topic are different from opinions on music and such. With music there is no logical process to deciding what you like, it is just something that you feel. With things like homosexuality or a variety of other topics that exist, there is some reasoning involved. Like I said before, with actions like stealing, killing, and homosexuality you can put logic to use.

Everyone is also aware that some people believe things just because they think that a God wants that. You and I both know they have the right to that, but now, using your often forgotten and neglected (not by you but by the human race as a collective group) right to free thought, do you think that is a smart thing to do? Is blind faith a sign of intelligence?

Wouldn't it be smart for those people to ask themselves if those commands they are taking are coming from a God they would want to worship? Does a loving god force you to hold in contempt/hate/disapprove of( the list goes on as far as persecute depending on the God) someone for something that is benign? Does a real divine being, existing on a level greater than our consciences can fathom really disapprove of something that is so insignificant? Again using the previous examples, I can see why a moral God would not take kindly to those who murder and those who lie and anyone who asked themselves that question about the Christian commandments about killing and the one I think exists about stealing they would probably be able to see right away why a good God would want those rules to be followed.

That is along the lines of what we are thinking. The only thing better than knowing something is understanding it.
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Old 10-23-2007, 09:24 PM   #105
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YMH has never seen bottom that couldn't keep digging past.
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Old 10-23-2007, 11:01 PM   #106
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YMH thinks there is more room to dig once he gets to the other side of the Earth.
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Old 10-24-2007, 01:55 AM   #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YomMamasHouse
Is blind faith a sign of intelligence?
I think that those who have faith would chuckle at this, faith is not blind...

Quote:
Originally Posted by YomMamasHouse
Wouldn't it be smart for those people to ask themselves if those commands they are taking are coming from a God they would want to worship?
Again, I don't believe that intelligence has anything to do with faith. This is not to say that many intelligent people do not have faith and many dumb people do not have faith... Faithful indeed look for a greater understanding and knowledge of God, but there is a component of faith where you just say, "Well, I understand what he's saying, I don't know why, but I understand the message." Some people can't be comfortable with that, others understand it is truely a matter of faith.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YomMamasHouse
Does a loving god force you to hold in contempt/hate/disapprove of( the list goes on as far as persecute depending on the God) someone for something that is benign?
I agree that it does depend on the God. Many Gods aren't labeled as "loving" Gods. Gods like Christ teach people to love those that sin and help those that repent. Other Gods are interpreted to say "slay em!". It would also depend on your human definition of "loving". Many people believe that "loving" means they get what they want and what they believe from someone (or their God)... if isn't in their realm of belief then the God must not be a "true" loving God. So point of a view can scew it pretty badly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YomMamasHouse
Does a real divine being, existing on a level greater than our consciences can fathom really disapprove of something that is so insignificant?
It may be insignificant from our understanding, but at least from a Christian God point of view sin is the intentional separation and moving oneself farther away from God... I wouldn't consider that insignificant. If your children are doing things that are harmful to themselves (like running into the street), even though they may not understand how it really is harmful, you still love them... you try to help them from hurting themselves as best you can, but you don't "approve" of the behavior just because they don't see the light.

Quote:
Originally Posted by YomMamasHouse
That is along the lines of what we are thinking. The only thing better than knowing something is understanding it.
And faith isn't about understanding, it's about knowing, nor does it have to be.

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Old 10-24-2007, 02:14 AM   #108
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Quote:
faith is not blind
Blind is not the best word I guess, I used it as a metaphorical reference to unquestioning. I should have asked of you thought unquestioning faith was intelligent, because it is important to consider that their faith was taught to them by other humans, and the scripture that came from was written by other humans. I was wondering what you thought about people taking what they are told unquestioningly, never asking themselves if what they are told about God is really true, and if it is smart to make your moral foundation based off an impalpable and unprovable concept like God without thinking critically about it.
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Old 10-24-2007, 03:27 AM   #109
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YMH your straw man only represents a portion (and a small one I believe) of those that claim to follow the tenets of Christianity. As there is no monolithic "Church" there is, also, no homogenenous "follower". They are of all shapes and sizes. By cleaving to this idea of a unthinking dogmatic follower you are showing your own form of bigotry. I can tell you, with all certainty, that within the groups who's membership represent the highest levels of intelligence there is no uniform view of the Supernatural. You have the same splits.
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Old 10-24-2007, 03:32 AM   #110
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K. Now this argument has turned into stupidity.

Let's go over the definition of the word faith.

1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one's promises (2): sincerity of intentions

2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust

3: something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>

So, depending on which application of the word faith we are talking about, it could be good or stupid. Having firm belief in something for which there is no proof is stupid while swearing allegiance to a duty or person is not.

Blind faith, though, is stupid no matter how you want to try to spell it out. When you blindly support something despite evidence, the destructive nature of your faith (all of it's implications including allegiance to someone/thing), and general douchebaggery of your belief is pretty fucking lame.

You can easily see the negative impact that blind faith has had on our world, just look at extremists or people that uphold a belief to such a degree that they are willing to kill and murder innocents for it.

I'm more than 100% sure someone is going to take what I said and try to make an argument for how blind faith can be good and then take what I said out of context and will, generally, look stupid. So, to prevent this I'll try to make this as clear and concise as possible.

Blind faith is bad. Not because it can have a positive impact, but because having blind faith means you would continue the actions/belief you hold regardless of the outcome.

Blind faith is stupid. Not because it can have a positive impact, but because having blind faith means you would continue the actions/belief you hold regardless of proof, evidence, and the outcome.

Edit: Jesus christ, what does this have to do with gay wizards?

Last edited by Credge; 10-24-2007 at 03:39 AM.
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Old 10-24-2007, 04:54 AM   #111
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Your opinion smells like your asshole.
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Old 10-24-2007, 12:20 PM   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Credge
Blind faith is stupid.
And my point is that all faith is not blind, but the removal of blind faith does not require the questioning of Gods law. Faith, as I am referring to it, is more than the definition you provided, it also entails the gift of faith from God. That faith is not blind. This is why I've said that faith does not require intelligence, only knowing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Credge
Edit: Jesus christ, what does this have to do with gay wizards?
Please read through the whole thread again, you'll see where this particular tangent began and my argument on how and why some parents may be upset. If you don't understand at that point how the topics of faith and gay wizards have been linked I can't help you. Come back to us with a report on the explanation, 50 words or less, double spaced.
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Old 10-24-2007, 12:27 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YomMamasHouse
Blind is not the best word I guess, I used it as a metaphorical reference to unquestioning. I should have asked of you thought unquestioning faith was intelligent, because it is important to consider that their faith was taught to them by other humans, and the scripture that came from was written by other humans. I was wondering what you thought about people taking what they are told unquestioningly, never asking themselves if what they are told about God is really true, and if it is smart to make your moral foundation based off an impalpable and unprovable concept like God without thinking critically about it.
By human nature all people question their faith and ask God for guidance and answers to why the universe is made the way it is. I have never met anyone who has blind faith, nor have I heard of anyone who has true blind faith. Do you know anyone who has never asked their God for better understanding?

Again, I think this goes back to this scenario:

If your children are doing things that are harmful to themselves (like running into the street), even though they may not understand how it really is harmful, you still love them... you try to help them from hurting themselves as best you can, but you don't "approve" of the behavior just because they don't see the light.

There can/could easily be other reasons we could not comprehend for why homosexual behavior is an abomination. I'm sure there are reasons we can outline that would make sense, there are plenty of negative outcomes to improper sexual behavior that have occurred, there are examples everywhere.

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Last edited by Scuzzy; 10-24-2007 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 10-24-2007, 06:00 PM   #114
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Old 10-24-2007, 06:10 PM   #115
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Quote:
faith is not blind
That is exactly what faith is. When your actions are ultimately decided by the law of God you are blind in a metaphorical sense. Faith is believing and putting all your trust in God, there is no room for individual reasoning.
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Old 10-24-2007, 06:12 PM   #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bokko
That is exactly what faith is. When your actions are ultimately decided by the law of God you are blind in a metaphorical sense. Faith is believing and putting all your trust in God, there is no room for individual reasoning.
There's always room for questions and room for reasoning. There's very few people of faith that have not had times of questioning and doubts. At the outset and throughout their time on this rock.
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Old 10-24-2007, 06:18 PM   #117
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And when they come back around to 'believing' they haven't found any reasoning have they? Essentially you just blindly accept that God is.
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Old 10-24-2007, 06:20 PM   #118
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I just want to throw this out there.

To base morals on the bible in saying that it is a sin to be homosexual is not something I can respect. The bible says a lot of things and people just pick and choose it. Yes, it says though shalt not kill. We all pretty much agree on that one. It also says we should kill witches and stone children for not listening to their parents. Why don't we stone children? Is it because it's cruel, it doesn't make sence, and that it doesn't "fit the crime?"

I think so. So I choose not to stone children. I also choose not to condemn people for being homosexual. You all do the same thing. You pick and choose parts of the bible that you like, and parts you don't like. So, to those who think homosexuality is immoral I ask you why? Why have you chosen that part of the bible to listen to? (I don't expect an answer as I'm pretty sure no one here thinks that way... but incase someone happens upon the thread I guess)
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Old 10-24-2007, 06:25 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bokko
And when they come back around to 'believing' they haven't found any reasoning have they? Essentially you just blindly accept that God is.
You say that because it is the only way you can keep your straw man standing. Is it so hard to accept that there continues to be something you're not grasping?
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Old 10-24-2007, 07:33 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Credge
...Let's go over the definition of the word faith.

1 a: allegiance to duty or a person : loyalty b (1): fidelity to one's promises (2): sincerity of intentions

2 a (1): belief and trust in and loyalty to God (2): belief in the traditional doctrines of a religion b (1): firm belief in something for which there is no proof (2): complete trust

3: something that is believed especially with strong conviction; especially : a system of religious beliefs <the Protestant faith>
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by bokko
Quote:
faith is not blind
That is exactly what faith is. When your actions are ultimately decided by the law of God you are blind in a metaphorical sense. Faith is believing and putting all your trust in God, there is no room for individual reasoning.
The problem is that the word "faith" is a loaded term, and depending on a persons bias/world view, that term can be loaded to imply things that normally would not be applied to.

When you step on aluminum ladders, the presumption is that the ladder was made based on standards that require it to withstand certain amount of weight. The ladder instruction will tell you, do not go over this limit, or this will happen. You've never met the ladder maker, but you trust the ladder on "blind" faith, that the ladder maker had followed the standard to support the stated weight limit, even though you have not been present to see the ladder being made. If it wasn't on "blind" faith, you'd have to meet the guy, or do some experiement on the ladder first, or actually see the ladder being made, to understand that the chance of the ladder being defective is less than a certain percentage. Then, once you use the ladder, you use that experience to base your conclusion on other aluminum made thing such as bikes or baseball bats, or perhaps other things made by the ladder maker.

But for some reason, that's not called "blind" faith. But when a person has read some thing from the bible, and there's a cause-effect contract, known as promises, and decides to go and test it out, and when tested out, it turns out to do exactly what it said would do, and so on on good faith, decided to hold the contract maker on good esteem, that's called "blind" faith. Why is that?

People already take many things on "blind" faith. There was a pet-food incidence that happened several months ago, where imported pet food from china ended up killing several pets in american homes. And yet, most people still consume food from their local supermarket. Is that not blind faith, to trust the supermarket to provide non-toxic food for humans, when toxic pet food were sold only several months ago? Where's the outcry from the anti-religious groups of the blind faith for supermarkets?

In addition, to classify religious people to be prone to "blind" faith is double talk. In order to do that, you have to know everything related to faith AND the faith of every person who is considered to be religious. A sensible person would state something like "according to what i have experienced, from what i understand as faith, from what i understand as blind faith, and from what i understand as the general behavior of religious people, religious people tend to be guilded by blind faith."

And of course this cannot be done without a strong bias from the start. How can that be? Ask this question, "Am i smarter and more knowledgeable than Thomas Eddison, the same Thomas Eddison who is reknown for his inventions and contributions in fundimental designing of the x-ray, incandescent lightbulb, etc etc?"

This same Thomas Eddison had said "Its obvious that we don't know one millionth of one percent about anything." http://www.thomasedison.com/edquote.htm

If an intellectual giant such as Eddison admits that, then what does it say about those who claim to know enough about religion and faith to group them all as a "blind" group of people?

Sorry for the long post.
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