Fortress Forever

Go Back   Fortress Forever > Editing > Mapping

View Poll Results: Chokepoints?
Chokepoints that can be doorblocked by players are a good thing. 4 25.00%
Chokepoints that can be doorblocked by players are a bad thing. 12 75.00%
Voters: 16. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-24-2007, 04:34 PM   #1
Ihmhi
[AE] 0112 Ihmhi *SJB
Wiki Team
Fortress Forever Staff
 
Ihmhi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Newark, NJ, United States
Class/Position: A little bit o' everythin'
Gametype: Also a little bit o' everythin'
Affiliations: [AE] Asseater, *SJB Straight Jacket Brigade
Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times
Send a message via AIM to Ihmhi Send a message via MSN to Ihmhi Send a message via Yahoo to Ihmhi
Chokepoints/Doorways

In your opinion as a mapper or player, are chokepoints that can be blocked by a player (top spiral entrance and elevator entrance in 2fort) a good thing or a bad thing?

One of the things I am hoping for in future iterations of 2fort is wider doorways at the chokepoints. It is kinda lame that someone can just stand there and basically gun you down; really hurts the Scout IMO. There should be opportunity to move around a bit, ya know?

Well?
__________________
Support FF:
Anime: The Thread: Reloaded
The one and only anime thread on these here forums.

Select the pistol, and then, select your horse.
Ihmhi is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-24-2007, 04:53 PM   #2
paranoidkirb
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Class/Position: O/D Pyro
Gametype: Invade and Defend
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
Send a message via AIM to paranoidkirb Send a message via MSN to paranoidkirb Send a message via Yahoo to paranoidkirb Send a message via Skype™ to paranoidkirb
I hated that a single demo could basically lockdown spiral as long as he had ammo.
paranoidkirb is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-24-2007, 04:57 PM   #3
Ihmhi
[AE] 0112 Ihmhi *SJB
Wiki Team
Fortress Forever Staff
 
Ihmhi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Newark, NJ, United States
Class/Position: A little bit o' everythin'
Gametype: Also a little bit o' everythin'
Affiliations: [AE] Asseater, *SJB Straight Jacket Brigade
Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times
Send a message via AIM to Ihmhi Send a message via MSN to Ihmhi Send a message via Yahoo to Ihmhi
Yeah. I think one of the main issues in TFC's lean towards defense was not really just the gameplay balance but also map design.

ff_flare, I think, Blister's map... in its earliest versions, the thing was more open than Paris Hilton's legs after three appletinis. It was such a bitch to defend because there were basically four different ways into the flagroom that were about as wide as 2fort's ramproom (yes, hallways THAT wide).

Thankfully, the defense aspect was balanced out some more and the hallways were compressed and shrunk in some ways. Some are still pretty big, but none of the ones leading up to FR are any bigger than, oh, roughly four men standing side to side. It leaves it less to "Stand here as Solly and just keep shooting down" and more to a battle of skill. Is the Scout skilled enough to get past the Solly in that situation?

I think one of the things that can make or break a map is the chokepoints... you find somewhere with a small enough hall that leads to a critical area, and you can bet players will learn to lock that place down tighter than Paris Hilton's va-

Wait, that's not tight at all. Well, tighter than something tight.
__________________
Support FF:
Anime: The Thread: Reloaded
The one and only anime thread on these here forums.

Select the pistol, and then, select your horse.
Ihmhi is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-24-2007, 08:06 PM   #4
BlisTer
Fortress Forever Staff
 
BlisTer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 4 Times
It's not only about making corridors wider to prevent chokepoints.
You can make tight corridors but add something to the map that makes it disadvantageous for the defender to be crawling back in it and spamming it all the time. Flare's T corridor is quite tight in fact, but if you stay in it as a defender, you leave the airlift open to defenders. The trick is to lure the defender forward, into the open, because it's advantageous for the team to have the T defender also attack the ppl going airlift (otherwise you'd have to sacrifice another defender to defend the airlift). As it's more difficult (read: interesting) for the T defender now, you can help him a bit by making both the T entrance and the airlift entrance tighter.
__________________
Support FF:
untils you cry for the mercy like little shaven squirrel in my eating pot. - deathstriker666
BlisTer is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-24-2007, 09:18 PM   #5
Doughnut-4|4-
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
Two things suck about 2fort:

Narrow Doorways

and a useless water access
Doughnut-4|4- is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-25-2007, 12:19 AM   #6
own3r
Custom mapper
 
own3r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
Things which suck without fail:

A lack of choice of routes for most classes, 2fort spiral.
Entrances with doorways which clip with the player and prevent concing, 2fort spiral.
Areas where the player cannot move sufficiently to dodge anything, 2fort spiral and elevator entrance
Long corridors, 2fort spiral
Low roofs, 2fort spiral and elevator entrance
Corridors which can be blocked, 2fort spiral and elevator entrance

I think its fair to say 2fort is ruined by more than anything else by the entrances to the basement sections.
own3r is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-25-2007, 08:53 AM   #7
Ihmhi
[AE] 0112 Ihmhi *SJB
Wiki Team
Fortress Forever Staff
 
Ihmhi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Newark, NJ, United States
Class/Position: A little bit o' everythin'
Gametype: Also a little bit o' everythin'
Affiliations: [AE] Asseater, *SJB Straight Jacket Brigade
Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times
Send a message via AIM to Ihmhi Send a message via MSN to Ihmhi Send a message via Yahoo to Ihmhi
It has its hard parts, yes. Gotta admit it sucks that a Heavy can mow nearly anyone down if they catch them in that long first floor corridor. The small doorways are the worst offenders though IMO.
__________________
Support FF:
Anime: The Thread: Reloaded
The one and only anime thread on these here forums.

Select the pistol, and then, select your horse.
Ihmhi is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-26-2007, 02:37 AM   #8
Thomas
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
It's impossible to just say arbitrarily if they are bad or good... Their creation must be gauged on the difficulty of the area. If the area is too easy to get to by offense and yields too great a reward, such as access to the flag, then putting in a blockable corridor can be a good thing as it will increase the difficulty of the area for offense, and thus create a balance in that they must take a greater risk and apply greater effort for a greater reward. Conversely, if the area is already easy to lock down by defense and does not yield such great rewards, such as only getting security, then the designer should consider widening the corridor to make the map more balanced. IMO there should be a constant balance between task and reward. The more "rewarding" areas should be more difficult to get to.

Pertaining to 2fort specifically, the map is a defense-oriented map which is evident by how cramped the base is. The small doorways add a level of depth to the gameplay and I'm not sure if they should be removed. If you did want to make the map more balanced in terms of defendability, I would consider widening the other areas to give the offense more maneuverability, but keeping those specific passageways narrow to retain that aspect of strategy.

tfc philosophy 101
Thomas is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-26-2007, 07:49 AM   #9
Doughnut-4|4-
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
Door too small. Zog can't get through, ug.

Caveman 101
Doughnut-4|4- is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-26-2007, 10:36 PM   #10
Defrag
Retired FF Staff
 
Defrag's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Scotland
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
Depends on the map. Some chokepoints are OK. The ones that really irk me are the ones in maps that are otherwise wide-fuckin'-open. E.g. lots of maps have really huge dimensions in nearly every room, but then they have a few tiny connecting corridors elsewhere. End result is a spam & block fest in the tight corridors because the rest of the map is too big to defend.
__________________
Fortress Forever.
Level Designer, Gameplay Dude and whatnot.
Defrag is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-27-2007, 12:17 AM   #11
Marshmallow Noob
D&A Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
LOL dustbowl gates.
Marshmallow Noob is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-27-2007, 08:18 AM   #12
Elmo
Gets tickled by FF
Fortress Forever Staff
 
Elmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: UK
Class/Position: Med Solly HW
Gametype: Any/CTF
Posts Rated Helpful 41 Times
all i'm gonna say is that mapping a balanced map is almost an art.
Elmo is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-27-2007, 12:51 PM   #13
own3r
Custom mapper
 
own3r's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas
It's impossible to just say arbitrarily if they are bad or good... Their creation must be gauged on the difficulty of the area. If the area is too easy to get to by offense and yields too great a reward, such as access to the flag, then putting in a blockable corridor can be a good thing as it will increase the difficulty of the area for offense, and thus create a balance in that they must take a greater risk and apply greater effort for a greater reward. Conversely, if the area is already easy to lock down by defense and does not yield such great rewards, such as only getting security, then the designer should consider widening the corridor to make the map more balanced. IMO there should be a constant balance between task and reward. The more "rewarding" areas should be more difficult to get to.

Pertaining to 2fort specifically, the map is a defense-oriented map which is evident by how cramped the base is. The small doorways add a level of depth to the gameplay and I'm not sure if they should be removed. If you did want to make the map more balanced in terms of defendability, I would consider widening the other areas to give the offense more maneuverability, but keeping those specific passageways narrow to retain that aspect of strategy.

tfc philosophy 101
Balance can be achieved without stagnating gameplay, as 2fort does. Doing so does not add depth, it makes people loose interest. Narrow corridors which can be blocked kill the fun of playing 2fort as any competant soldier can simply aim anywhere near you and hit you every time. That makes playing scout anoying as you cannot dodge or conc to avoid them.
own3r is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-27-2007, 01:27 PM   #14
Norris
The Good German
 
Norris's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Germany
Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times
ummm 2fort requires aiming on offence. it's not one of the 'look I triple conc past you' maps. you can still easily conc past defenders on lift or to/in the spiral and probably need to. doing a one man show will definitely be hard. but isn't TFC about teamplay? I always enjoyed maps like shutdown_l or 2fort. sure it might suck for people who just try to conc or can't kill anybody.. but umm shit happens? become better!


people tend to forget that maps like 2fort are beloved by new players over maps like orbit or high flag. why? it's simple and easy. they choose soldier or heavy and can still kill somebody. best for publics.

Last edited by Norris; 08-27-2007 at 01:35 PM.
Norris is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-27-2007, 06:21 PM   #15
Circuitous
Useless
Retired FF Staff
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Class/Position: D Soldier, O Scout
Gametype: AvD
Posts Rated Helpful 9 Times
Send a message via AIM to Circuitous Send a message via MSN to Circuitous Send a message via Yahoo to Circuitous Send a message via Skype™ to Circuitous
Owner bitches about 2fort like it's a giant rock of unplayable shit, instead of the #1 map ever.

CONFUSING.
__________________
Look at all those dead links.
Circuitous is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-28-2007, 01:26 AM   #16
Marshmallow Noob
D&A Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by Circuitous
Owner bitches about 2fort like it's a giant rock of unplayable shit, instead of the #1 map ever.

CONFUSING.
Then why isnt it being made for release of FF?
Marshmallow Noob is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-28-2007, 01:39 AM   #17
squeek.
Stuff Do-er
Lua Team
Wiki Team
Fortress Forever Staff
 
squeek.'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Northern California
Class/Position: Rallygun Shooter
Gametype: Conc tag (you just wait)
Affiliations: Mustache Brigade
Posts Rated Helpful 352 Times
Send a message via AIM to squeek.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshmallow Noob
Then why isnt it being made for release of FF?
What? How is that question relevant? But, I think 2fort is in secret development at the moment. So far, it's been hidden from everyone.
squeek. is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-28-2007, 04:50 PM   #18
Circuitous
Useless
Retired FF Staff
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Class/Position: D Soldier, O Scout
Gametype: AvD
Posts Rated Helpful 9 Times
Send a message via AIM to Circuitous Send a message via MSN to Circuitous Send a message via Yahoo to Circuitous Send a message via Skype™ to Circuitous
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marshmallow Noob
Then why isnt it being made for release of FF?
See here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by squeek.
But, I think 2fort is in secret development at the moment. So far, it's been hidden from everyone.
Squeek wins. Flawless victory.
__________________
Look at all those dead links.
Circuitous is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-28-2007, 05:20 PM   #19
Ihmhi
[AE] 0112 Ihmhi *SJB
Wiki Team
Fortress Forever Staff
 
Ihmhi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Newark, NJ, United States
Class/Position: A little bit o' everythin'
Gametype: Also a little bit o' everythin'
Affiliations: [AE] Asseater, *SJB Straight Jacket Brigade
Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times
Send a message via AIM to Ihmhi Send a message via MSN to Ihmhi Send a message via Yahoo to Ihmhi
Edit: Fine. d:
__________________
Support FF:
Anime: The Thread: Reloaded
The one and only anime thread on these here forums.

Select the pistol, and then, select your horse.

Last edited by Ihmhi; 08-28-2007 at 09:40 PM.
Ihmhi is offline   Reply With Quote


Old 08-28-2007, 09:25 PM   #20
Circuitous
Useless
Retired FF Staff
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Class/Position: D Soldier, O Scout
Gametype: AvD
Posts Rated Helpful 9 Times
Send a message via AIM to Circuitous Send a message via MSN to Circuitous Send a message via Yahoo to Circuitous Send a message via Skype™ to Circuitous
Quit.

Fucking.

Hotlinking.
__________________
Look at all those dead links.
Circuitous is offline   Reply With Quote


Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:44 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.