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View Poll Results: Chokepoints? | |||
Chokepoints that can be doorblocked by players are a good thing. | 4 | 25.00% | |
Chokepoints that can be doorblocked by players are a bad thing. | 12 | 75.00% | |
Voters: 16. You may not vote on this poll |
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08-24-2007, 04:34 PM | #1 |
[AE] 0112 Ihmhi *SJB
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Fortress Forever Staff |
Chokepoints/Doorways
In your opinion as a mapper or player, are chokepoints that can be blocked by a player (top spiral entrance and elevator entrance in 2fort) a good thing or a bad thing?
One of the things I am hoping for in future iterations of 2fort is wider doorways at the chokepoints. It is kinda lame that someone can just stand there and basically gun you down; really hurts the Scout IMO. There should be opportunity to move around a bit, ya know? Well?
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08-24-2007, 04:53 PM | #2 |
I hated that a single demo could basically lockdown spiral as long as he had ammo.
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08-24-2007, 04:57 PM | #3 |
[AE] 0112 Ihmhi *SJB
Wiki Team
Fortress Forever Staff |
Yeah. I think one of the main issues in TFC's lean towards defense was not really just the gameplay balance but also map design.
ff_flare, I think, Blister's map... in its earliest versions, the thing was more open than Paris Hilton's legs after three appletinis. It was such a bitch to defend because there were basically four different ways into the flagroom that were about as wide as 2fort's ramproom (yes, hallways THAT wide). Thankfully, the defense aspect was balanced out some more and the hallways were compressed and shrunk in some ways. Some are still pretty big, but none of the ones leading up to FR are any bigger than, oh, roughly four men standing side to side. It leaves it less to "Stand here as Solly and just keep shooting down" and more to a battle of skill. Is the Scout skilled enough to get past the Solly in that situation? I think one of the things that can make or break a map is the chokepoints... you find somewhere with a small enough hall that leads to a critical area, and you can bet players will learn to lock that place down tighter than Paris Hilton's va- Wait, that's not tight at all. Well, tighter than something tight.
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08-24-2007, 08:06 PM | #4 |
Fortress Forever Staff
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 4 Times
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It's not only about making corridors wider to prevent chokepoints.
You can make tight corridors but add something to the map that makes it disadvantageous for the defender to be crawling back in it and spamming it all the time. Flare's T corridor is quite tight in fact, but if you stay in it as a defender, you leave the airlift open to defenders. The trick is to lure the defender forward, into the open, because it's advantageous for the team to have the T defender also attack the ppl going airlift (otherwise you'd have to sacrifice another defender to defend the airlift). As it's more difficult (read: interesting) for the T defender now, you can help him a bit by making both the T entrance and the airlift entrance tighter. |
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08-24-2007, 09:18 PM | #5 |
Join Date: May 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
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Two things suck about 2fort:
Narrow Doorways and a useless water access |
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08-25-2007, 12:19 AM | #6 |
Custom mapper
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
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Things which suck without fail:
A lack of choice of routes for most classes, 2fort spiral. Entrances with doorways which clip with the player and prevent concing, 2fort spiral. Areas where the player cannot move sufficiently to dodge anything, 2fort spiral and elevator entrance Long corridors, 2fort spiral Low roofs, 2fort spiral and elevator entrance Corridors which can be blocked, 2fort spiral and elevator entrance I think its fair to say 2fort is ruined by more than anything else by the entrances to the basement sections. |
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08-25-2007, 08:53 AM | #7 |
[AE] 0112 Ihmhi *SJB
Wiki Team
Fortress Forever Staff |
It has its hard parts, yes. Gotta admit it sucks that a Heavy can mow nearly anyone down if they catch them in that long first floor corridor. The small doorways are the worst offenders though IMO.
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08-26-2007, 02:37 AM | #8 |
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It's impossible to just say arbitrarily if they are bad or good... Their creation must be gauged on the difficulty of the area. If the area is too easy to get to by offense and yields too great a reward, such as access to the flag, then putting in a blockable corridor can be a good thing as it will increase the difficulty of the area for offense, and thus create a balance in that they must take a greater risk and apply greater effort for a greater reward. Conversely, if the area is already easy to lock down by defense and does not yield such great rewards, such as only getting security, then the designer should consider widening the corridor to make the map more balanced. IMO there should be a constant balance between task and reward. The more "rewarding" areas should be more difficult to get to.
Pertaining to 2fort specifically, the map is a defense-oriented map which is evident by how cramped the base is. The small doorways add a level of depth to the gameplay and I'm not sure if they should be removed. If you did want to make the map more balanced in terms of defendability, I would consider widening the other areas to give the offense more maneuverability, but keeping those specific passageways narrow to retain that aspect of strategy. tfc philosophy 101 |
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08-26-2007, 07:49 AM | #9 |
Join Date: May 2007
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Door too small. Zog can't get through, ug.
Caveman 101 |
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08-26-2007, 10:36 PM | #10 |
Retired FF Staff
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Scotland
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Depends on the map. Some chokepoints are OK. The ones that really irk me are the ones in maps that are otherwise wide-fuckin'-open. E.g. lots of maps have really huge dimensions in nearly every room, but then they have a few tiny connecting corridors elsewhere. End result is a spam & block fest in the tight corridors because the rest of the map is too big to defend.
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08-27-2007, 12:17 AM | #11 |
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Baton Rouge, LA
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LOL dustbowl gates.
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08-27-2007, 08:18 AM | #12 |
Gets tickled by FF
Fortress Forever Staff
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: UK
Class/Position: Med Solly HW Gametype: Any/CTF Posts Rated Helpful 41 Times
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all i'm gonna say is that mapping a balanced map is almost an art.
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08-27-2007, 12:51 PM | #13 | |
Custom mapper
Join Date: Mar 2007
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Quote:
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08-27-2007, 01:27 PM | #14 |
The Good German
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Germany
Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times
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ummm 2fort requires aiming on offence. it's not one of the 'look I triple conc past you' maps. you can still easily conc past defenders on lift or to/in the spiral and probably need to. doing a one man show will definitely be hard. but isn't TFC about teamplay? I always enjoyed maps like shutdown_l or 2fort. sure it might suck for people who just try to conc or can't kill anybody.. but umm shit happens? become better!
people tend to forget that maps like 2fort are beloved by new players over maps like orbit or high flag. why? it's simple and easy. they choose soldier or heavy and can still kill somebody. best for publics. Last edited by Norris; 08-27-2007 at 01:35 PM. |
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08-27-2007, 06:21 PM | #15 |
Useless
Retired FF Staff
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Owner bitches about 2fort like it's a giant rock of unplayable shit, instead of the #1 map ever.
CONFUSING.
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08-28-2007, 01:26 AM | #16 | |
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Quote:
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08-28-2007, 01:39 AM | #17 | |
Stuff Do-er
Lua Team
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08-28-2007, 04:50 PM | #18 | ||
Useless
Retired FF Staff
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Quote:
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08-28-2007, 05:20 PM | #19 |
[AE] 0112 Ihmhi *SJB
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Fortress Forever Staff |
Edit: Fine. d:
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Anime: The Thread: Reloaded The one and only anime thread on these here forums. Select the pistol, and then, select your horse. Last edited by Ihmhi; 08-28-2007 at 09:40 PM. |
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08-28-2007, 09:25 PM | #20 |
Useless
Retired FF Staff
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Quit.
Fucking. Hotlinking.
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