Snipers! They don't belong.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by Mikael_hs

. . . the sniper is not interacting one bit . . .

wat

[Bridget]

I am going to rewrite my post from a page ago now that I have reflected on it. I believe I have a good argument for why long range mechanics break the game. For this example, I want you to first imagine the game with no Snipers. This Fortress Forever is made up entirely of classes that do best at short ranges.

When a close range class enters close range with another, he negates his opponent's safety. However, not without negating his own safety. He gains the ability to interact at his maximum potential. However, not without passing on the same advantage of maximum interaction to his target.

When a close range class enters long range against another, he negates his opponent's ability to interact. However, not without negating his own ability to interaction. He gains the promise of safety. However, not without passing on the same promise of safety to the person targeting him.

It is a one to one system here. Now, you may say something like "What if I don't want those advantages or disadvantages imposed on me? I don't care if I get the ability to interact when my opponent does even if he jeopardizes the same safety he negates from me. I prefer safety over interaction." and that's perfectly fine. You can avoid these situations with range, the 'safety zone' relative to close range classes.

You might say something like "But, quite the opposite, I don't care if I get safety when my opponent gets safety. I don't care if he can't interact. I want to interact! I want to fight and crush the enemy!" and that's perfectly fine. You can avoid these situations by preventing the enemy from retreating.

You can not be safe without losing the ability to interact. You can not be interactive without losing safety. In other words, you can not both have your cake and eat it too. In addition, when you do eat your cake, you share it with your enemy, and when you don't eat your cake, neither does your enemy. I hope that makes sense. It's a one to one system here. You get what your opponent gets and lose what your opponent loses. You can reserve the situation in your favor, but it never disfavors your opponent.

What happens if we throw a long range class into the mix here? Let's assume he's playing at close range with others at the same range. The Sniper is the only example of a long range class in Fortress Forever. Alright, so the Sniper is at close range. What advantage does he get? Interaction. Does his opponent get it too? Yep! So far so good! What does he lose? Safety. Does his opponent lose it too? Yep! Wow! The Sniper is balanced, by this standard, in close range. Woo!

What about long range? What does the Sniper get? He gains the ability to interact and safety. Alright, usually he gains one advantage and the other becomes a disadvantage. As long as the other classes have both of these advantages, then it's balanced. Well, there's the problem. They don't. What about disadvantages? Because both interaction and safety are advantages for the Sniper, there's nothing to fill the disadvantages for Sniper. What about his target's disadvantages? They lose both interaction and safety at long range.

In all those other cases, the classes had one or the other, and when a class had x so did his opponent and when a class lost y so did his opponent. This even worked at close range with the Sniper. The Sniper is balanced by this standard in close range. At long range, the Sniper gains both x and y as advantages and his opponents lose both x and y as they become disadvantages.

The problem is with how Sniper uses long range. The Sniper's ability to interact is constant. The only thing that changes is whether or not he is safe, and given his constant ability to interact, he can usually kill enemies long before they get close enough to jeopardize his safety. The Sniper can not be fixed, because what makes him a Sniper (according to the community: long range) will always be broken.

You can avoid the above mentioned situations. You can retreat to long range for safety at the expense of interaction. You can keep your opponent near you at the expense of safety. Where is the safety range against a Sniper? Retreating further back never negates his ability to interact (though it does your own) nor do you ever obtain safety (though you give him more safety by drawing yourself away and becoming ineffective). It's so broken.

Chart for lazy people: http://semperaugustus.mine.nu/chart.png

I want to add that this problem is not just with the Sniper, it's just he's the biggest culprit. It's a problem in weapons that can function at long range too. The railgun? You can use that from safety (long range) and interact just as effective as close range. Right now the only thing that limits range is how practical or effective something is. Realistically, the rocket launcher could be used from safety while dealing the same damage when it lands from across the map.

The only thing that prevents that from happening is how unlikely it is you can use it consistently (therefore effectively) in that manner. The railgun doesn't have quite as many of these limitations. It's fast enough to make it to long range to be practical. That's why range needs to be restricted in code, whether rockets or railguns or other projectiles fizz out after a certain range or hitscan weapons only reach so far or all of these things lose damage with range. I dunno.

[Dr.Satan]

Bridget's got a chart! He must be right!!

seriously though, I agree with that ^ completely.

[Green Mushy]

Bridget outlines the problem and makes it clear without any bias. This is just an observation of what happens. The next step of the thought process, which bridget didnt directly outline but should be understood, is that this situation is unfair. This is showing why we believe, OBJECTIVELY, the sniper is unfair. There is actually very little that either side can disagree with in his post, as it is basically just a description of what happens in-game. The only major thing u could point out is that this situation( of sniper having the ability to interact without sacrifice ), is actually fair. That would require, i believe, a misconception, or misunderstanding of what "fair" is. Otherwise, you would have to explain why an unfair mechanic belongs in FF, and u cant win that argument.

[Credge]

Mushy, shutup dude. Reason has no place here.

[eomoyaff]

bump

[eomoyaff]

Wow, I came back again. And I'm impressed Bridget!. You've managed to impress someone who despises you . No, I'm kidding. But I do have a suggestion that might help with the long range.

I don't know whose played borderlands, but playing with a sniper rifle, if I were to get hit, that would disrupt my aim slightly.




The Red Line with the Arrow is how far / close the player is from the sniper. The Green Squiggled Line is how far/ close that player is shooting the sniper. Notice that the closer the player gets to the sniper, the person shooting is going to effect the sniper. The green line gets more squiggly as the player shoots closer and closer to the sniper. That squiggle is how far it throws the snipers aim off of the target shooting him.

In conclusion, this allows a better chance for players to get by the map before getting popped. This will also increase the players skill with the sniper. If you don't hit your target the first time, you'll have a harder time shooting him the next.

What do you think?

(Btw, How about that MS Paint Job eh? lol)

[Bridget]

I don't get it. The Sniper can be interacted with more at close range? That's a given. The Sniper isn't a problem at close range (in this context.) However, he can not be interacted with at long range. Note, when we mention 'interacted with at long range' we mean with some minimum of effectiveness. People have been saying stuff like "Bah! Just shoot them with your shotgun." but that stray pellet isn't going to damage them nor even cause them to flinch at the least. The problem still exists. At long ranges, the Sniper has both great interaction ability and safety, while the close range class has neither.

[immortal]

as i've posted on the other sniper thread:
http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...2&postcount=18

[eomoyaff]

I completely disagree with taking the sniper out of the game Immo.. It's stupid.

@ Bridget - How do you not get it? I can't make it any Clearer then what it shows.

Medic shoots sniper from long distance - Sniper's aim gets knocked off a hair.

Medic shoots sniper from medium range -Sniper's aim gets knocked off target but not far.

Medic shoots sniper from medium range - Sniper's aim gets knocked off target completely.

Think as though you've just conced a sniper. Apply that but lessen the effect greatly.

And as for weapons. The stronger the weapon applied on the sniper, the more his aim gets knocked off. Bullets or nails have lesser effect then shells.

[Bridget]

And that proves what?

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by Bridget

And that proves what?

What the hell are you referring to? lol

[TheKing]

Originally Posted by mervaka

its been said many times before, the range/damage combination. yes it makes a sniper what it is, but as has been pointed out more recently in this thread, snipers in real life (and yes spies too if you like) are designed to be at an unfair advantage, where the enemy cannot fight back.

Every class has a situation/damage combination that isn't fair. Similarly, in real life every soldier on the battlefield is designed to have an unfair advantage. If you want to just list those that exist outside of traditional combat though - don't just limit yourself to the sniper or spy, we can apply that to most of the classes.

Originally Posted by mervaka

lets take a new example, ff_well. the midmap is huge. there is no easy alternative route. there is little cover bar the middle bunker. the snipers have a plethora of relatively safe places to take aim from. yes, a lot of this is down to map design, but if we stuck a bunch of trees up it'd ruin pretty much every other major aspect of gameplay (grenade tossing, movement etc)

so please, without merely turning what i just said on its head, can you provide me with how you feel towards that.

Well is actually a somewhat difficult map on which to snipe. The only place where you really get a good view of the entire yard is the top of either base, which is very accessible, provides little cover, and is therefore pretty dangerous. Yes the sniper has an advantage over range on well, but the gap is fairly quickly closed and it's easy to throw the sniper off and kill him. Keep in mind that this is even on a map with a huge midmap, as you said. Gwar dominates me every time I play with him on well.

In any event, and I don't think that this is turning what you said on its head, the advantage described is not unprecedented by any means. On ff_2fort, the spiral is very long, there is no easy alternative route, and the whole thing is very enclosed. A solider has a GIANT advantage over every other class in that spiral.

Originally Posted by squeek.

I think this is an interesting point and one that requires far more justification on your end. Why does removing something like long range and cloak mean that the classes are less unique (assuming the mechanics aren't just removed, but replaced or revamped; or even more drastically, the class is redone completely)? Are you saying that no possible combination of mechanics exist that could lead to uniqueness without using some or all of the current mechanics (long range, for example) in that combination?

I don't see how that could be the case.

No, that's not what I'm saying at all - I'm certain that you could have a combination of mechanics that lead to some level of uniqueness without using some or all of the current mechanics. But add those mechanics to the new mechanics and you've got much more variety. You're attempting to replace the sniper's long-range ability with something that matches the rest of the classes, thereby muting the sniper's range abilities and removing one important aspect from the game (bringing us one giant step closer to a game where all interaction is mulch/dm).

My point was that tweeking is a good thing - but when the direct result of your adjustment is to remove a huge chunk of variety from the game, there's a problem there. Long range is an important aspect of the game - I don't want your watered-down let's all mulch and DM game.

Originally Posted by Born_In_Xixax

But...once you reach a certain level (and I would submit TK is pretty much there,) the effect of such a sniper is INDISTINGUISHABLE from an aim bot for the opposition. Playing against an aim bot is the exact opposite of fun.

I appreciate the complement <3! However:
1) I'm nowhere near an aimbot - good scouts and medics get past me a large majority of the time.
2) It's frustrating when any class kills you frequently. Playing offense against a good solider in a hallway is at least as frustrating.

You're still interacting with the sniper - you can try to get by them (and even kill them with some of your long range weapons, though you're probably not going to be successful because of the range advantage). Similarly, you can try to get by a solider in a tight hallway or even kill them while they're bouncing you up in the air like a juggler, but you're probably not going to be successful because of the splash-damage advantage.

Originally Posted by Raynian

This thread in a nutshell, act I:

Everyone but snipers: man, snipers are fucking lame. Let's nerf them.
Snipers: but nerfing sucks! boohoo they're just a NICHE! they're not overpowered, just misunderstood!
Everyone: here's about five different reasons and explanations why they don't fit, are overpowered at what they do, and why they're not fun.
Snipers: but it takes skill to be a sniper! newbs suck! don't nerf all the snipers!
Everyone: that is a piss poor argument, here's a deconstruction of it. devs, please still nerf them.
TheKing: NOOO it takes super skill to be a sniper! look how good I am I am totally a pro!
Everyone: Sure, you're good, doesn't mean the class works well.
TheKing: *FAPFAPFAPFAP* UHHHN I AM SO GOOD oh by the way nobody else is as good as me, CLEARLY you are just basing it on me (FAPFAPFAP) so plzzzzzz dun nerf
Everyone: okay seriously what

I haven't brought up my particular level of amazingness except to refute someone who says I'm bad and to provide some perspective on the capabilities of the best snipers. I could be the worst player in FF and my argument remains exactly as valid.

Originally Posted by Mikael_hs

enugh pseudos... Regardless of potatos, longrange effectiveness or other quasimetaphysical questions, the sniper is not interacting one bit (in the maps where it's a problem, in some maps it's not rly a problem because its "naturally nerfed", but that leaves out almost every ctfmap), and in many ways it feels like that autogun that kills you when you enter someone else's spawnarea, only that this ones out in the open. You don't really care about killing it, because its not even part of the gameplay (in most maps); for all you know the thing standing there could just be a bot. However you soon become so damn frustrated that you quickly just have but one objective: make the fucker bleed. Unfortunately that doesn't work well either because snipers generelly stand just outside of their own spawnarea.

If one were to program a robot to play FF (similar to how each class actually is played), which class would be easiest? Obviously sniper. All you would need is to "tell it" to stand just beside the spawnarea on the battlements and snipe enemies. Whenever someone gets close you run into resup and waits till the enemy has gotten tired of waiting and disappears (or gets killed by the snipers BFF: the spawnautogun), and out you go again.

Very few maps have sniper positions where respawn is easily accessible. Aardvark is one for sure. 2fort and well might qualify, but on well those spots right outside of respawn kind of suck and on 2fort the only spot that qualifies is the right side of battlements. Can you think of more?

You're right though, a sniper would probably be one of the easiest classes to program because it relies so heavily on aim and doesn't necessarily move a ton.

Originally Posted by Green Mushy

Bridget outlines the problem and makes it clear without any bias. This is just an observation of what happens. The next step of the thought process, which bridget didnt directly outline but should be understood, is that this situation is unfair. This is showing why we believe, OBJECTIVELY, the sniper is unfair.

Awesome, I'm happy that we got that cleared up. But now we have bigger problems. It appears that the spy, solider, engineer, and a few other classes are also OBJECTIVELY unfair. She chose range, I could chose cloaks, hallway environments, buildables, etc.

That's fine though, ALL of the classes are unfair in certain scenarios and that's a good thing - it provides a level of uniqueness and variety. The more unique abilities the better - keep adding them instead of talking about removing them!

[mervaka]

a medic coming up against a soldier in the spiral has a fair chance of winning. use of grenades levels the playing field to some degree, and gives a lighter class some chance of tackling heavier classes. you cant throw grenades at a sniper on the other side of the midmap.

also lets not forget soldiers also have a clip of 4 rockets and a massive reload time. now lets suppose the sniper rifle had a small clip and a massive reload time?

[Ronzui]

Why doesnt the TF2 sniper rape like the FF sniper does? Bolt action reload and darkened scoped should be tried I believe. Thinking about removing the class shouldnt even be a option.
Class limits on maps Snipers, Spies, and NGs should be regulated. Keeping it simple

[Green Mushy]

Originally Posted by TheKing

It appears that the spy, solider, engineer, and a few other classes are also OBJECTIVELY unfair. He chose range, I could choose cloaks, hallway environments, buildables, etc.

Nobody is targeting any other mechanic right now other then sniper. You keep bringing up cloaking. Weve said before that cloaking is broken. Then ull say, "oh but people bitch about all things being unfair." Hallway environments, and many other imbalances can be blamed on poor map design, and buildables are not breaking any FF rules. When people accuse something of being unfair, they either dont understand how to judge fairness, and are ovelooking something, or the mechanic truly is unfair. What is happening here is that you can not judge what is and isnt fair. You cant explain why a rocket launcher is unfair. You can say, that in small corridors the soldier has a very easy time killing people, but the difference between sniper and soldier is that a player can kill a soldier, interact with him, deal 100% of their potential damage during a fight. Fights will take time, people will be severely damaged on both sides of the battle. Both players are given opportunity to use their skills and actually impact one another. That is a design principle that the game is going to adhere to. Thats what this is about: the sniper is not adhering to what we believe are FF design rules. You could say that the rules to the game are subjective, and fairness is subjective, and game design is subjective. I wouldnt disagree, but we are a dev team, and we have the power to make subjective decisions. If you cant convince people why taking sniper out would do more bad then good, then your argument doesnt help a dev team.

Originally Posted by TheKing

That's fine though, ALL of the classes are unfair in certain scenarios and that's a good thing - it provides a level of uniqueness and variety.

Except all classes have counters and the ability to interact with their opponent during any fighting.

When i get sniped across a map, explain how that is fair. One class has an advantage and kills me before im able to do anything to them. Explain.

[Sidd]

"All classes have counters"
This seems to be the most fundamental design rule that the sniper doesn't follow. What is the counter to a sniper? What should the counter to a sniper be? I would suggest the medic is 2/3 of the way there already, he has the ability to cross the distance quickly and do damage when he's closer.

Lets get back to basics. When is the sniper most frustrating? I think it's when you're playing scout or medic and you get killed at range a) too frequently and b) in a way that isn't fun.

Here's some of the more obvious solutions to this problem. They all have downsides, but every one of them fixes the problem.
Part a) - reduce the sniper's ability to kill scout/medic at range.

1. Remove the sniper from the game.
2. Lower damage at range, projectile requiring lead, wind, gravity.
3. Sniper does less damage to the lightly armoured classes.

Part b) - make getting killed at range more fun.

1. Projectile so you can dodge.
2. Ability to disrupt the sniper's aim to defend yourself.
3. Ability to shotgun/crowbar the bullet at range.

My preferred solution is a3. The fast moving classes should be the ones who can counter the sniper. Giving them some extra artificial help is very simple, solves the problem, and keeps the sniper as a counter against the classes with heavy armour.

[Gwarsbane]

My ears are burning I think someone is talking about me!!! :P


While TheKing is good, hes not an aimbot, heck hes not even close to one. When I want to get to him, I can get to him. It might take me a couple of times to get there some times but I will get to him.

Once he knows I'm after him (cause I told him I am over mic or just stabbed him 2 or 3 times in a row) he becomes a much less effective sniper because then hes paranoid about me being around, or under him, or heck a few times when I stood on top of him for a few minute or 2 telling him I was going to find him (hehe I love doing that to people)

I'm not the best spy or the best demo, or the best in any class, but if you can't get past the sniper on any map or have a problem getting past the sniper on maps then you just need to get better.

Originally Posted by mervaka

a medic coming up against a soldier in the spiral has a fair chance of winning. use of grenades levels the playing field to some degree, and gives a lighter class some chance of tackling heavier classes. you cant throw grenades at a sniper on the other side of the midmap.

also lets not forget soldiers also have a clip of 4 rockets and a massive reload time. now lets suppose the sniper rifle had a small clip and a massive reload time?

If a medic can easily get past a soldier many times then the soldier is just no good.

I can get to pretty much any sniper no matter where they are. The only place I have a slight problem with is on the top edge of aardvark and even there they can be killed.

Its easy enough to get past them. I might get killed once or twice trying it, but once I'm out look out. And thats even on aardvark.

As any class I can grenade jump/push out.

As a demo, a couple of pipes gets me off the deck quickly, 3 to the other side almost to the deck, 4 gets me on the enemy deck.

As a scout, I can set up a jump pad and conc out (though I suck with concs)

As a medic I can conc out (though I suck with concs)

As a soldier I can rocket jump out

As a heavy.... I can catch bullets and keep running

You get the point, with a little playing people can figure out how to get past snipers.

Snipers are not god like, and if they are then they are using an aimbot and even then people with aimbots can be beat, I have done it and even driven aimbot users off servers in TFC.




In the end, anyone using any class that they are even half way decent at, can scare off noobs. Using stuff like that as an excuse to nerf or get rid of a class just because you don't think it fits, well its the first step into nerfing or getting rid of other classes just because they can do something another class can't.

[mervaka]

so in short, you're putting the onus back onto the victim to "get skills"? hardly appealing to new players.

and anyway, avoidance isnt the solution we want, that's the point we're making. that doesnt solve the interaction problem in the slightest. it's not fun playing against a sniper at the moment.

[TheKing]

Originally Posted by mervaka

a medic coming up against a soldier in the spiral has a fair chance of winning.

Obviously it is dependent on the player.. but you act like a sniper is automatically going to kill anything in a yard. Well has a huge midmap, like you said, and tons of people get past even the best snipers. I honestly don't think there's a huge difference between the chance a medic has of killing a sniper on the top of a base in well and the chance that they kill a solider in spiral on 2fort (and the k:d stats of most servers support this).

Originally Posted by Green Mushy

Nobody is targeting any other mechanic right now other then sniper. You keep bringing up cloaking. Weve said before that cloaking is broken. Then ull say, "oh but people bitch about all things being unfair."

You said in one sentence that nobody is targeting any other mechanic and then said a sentence later that cloaking is broken... people ARE targeting other mechanics right now in active threads on these here forums (and it's DEFINITELY not limited to cloaking or snipers; medic's infection is just a few topics away from this one as well as a thread about the pyro and the bitching isn't limited even to these - spy's cloak is just one of many many mechanics targeted). People will bitch about situational or class-based advantages as long as they're a part of the game (which, hopefully, is forever).

Originally Posted by Green Mushy

Hallway environments, and many other imbalances can be blamed on poor map design

Sure, but there's as many hallway environments as there are large yards.

Originally Posted by Green Mushy

, and buildables are not breaking any FF rules.

According to some of you guys, safety shouldn't be allowed while you're still able to damage people. The SG is the mechanic that provides the most safety:damage in the game - as an engy you can be afk in spawn in perfect safety and still be killing people. So if you consider a VERY low risk:damage ratio broken (I don't, necessarily), then yes buildables are breaking an FF rule.

Originally Posted by Green Mushy

When people accuse something of being unfair, they either dont understand how to judge fairness, and are ovelooking something, or the mechanic truly is unfair. What is happening here is that you can not judge what is and isnt fair. You cant explain why a rocket launcher is unfair.

Absolutely I can. The splash damage gives the soldier an insane advantage in closed hallways because they can deal significantly more damage while juggling people who can't fight back anywhere nearly as effectively. The sniper has a similar advantage over range.

Originally Posted by Green Mushy

You can say, that in small corridors the soldier has a very easy time killing people, but the difference between sniper and soldier is that a player can kill a soldier, interact with him, deal 100% of their potential damage during a fight. Fights will take time, people will be severely damaged on both sides of the battle.

Generally, if you're a good solider, the fights will be fast and the solider will take minimal damage while he's juggling you. Same goes for the sniper over very long distances (and we're talking aardvark here - there's very little time for real long-range advantage on most maps).

Originally Posted by Green Mushy

Both players are given opportunity to use their skills and actually impact one another. That is a design principle that the game is going to adhere to. Thats what this is about: the sniper is not adhering to what we believe are FF design rules.

If that's true, then the demoman is 'broken' as well (and this is just one example of a class that doesn't have mulch-type interaction, I can definitely give you more if you want). All he's got to do is lay a pipe trap on security go hide far away and there's not a lot of ways the offense can 'impact' him. Effectively, you can only try to juke him into blowing the pipes too early or too late. I still consider this a form of interaction in TF, but that's not the point.

Originally Posted by Green Mushy

You could say that the rules to the game are subjective, and fairness is subjective, and game design is subjective. I wouldnt disagree, but we are a dev team, and we have the power to make subjective decisions. If you cant convince people why taking sniper out would do more bad then good, then your argument doesnt help a dev team.

Indeed, my argument is only that there is no level of objectivity to why you think the sniper is 'broken'. I can try to change you're opinion by explaining that you're removing an important aspect of the game, but first I want to make it clear that this is an issue of opinion and not the objective proof that some people are trying to paint it as.

A little off topic, but I'm actually going to give you guys a huge shout out. This game ROCKS - I love it (I wish it were marketed better - but the dev team has done a SUPERB job of creating the game so far). We seem to disagree on what we want the future of the game to be and obviously I don't develop the game so I can't mold it into what I want - I can only say that I think you're making a huge mistake by removing some of the characteristics of the game that don't conform to a narrow DM/mulch style of play.

Originally Posted by Green Mushy

When i get sniped across a map, explain how that is fair. One class has an advantage and kills me before im able to do anything to them. Explain.

I don't think that the solider in spiral on 2fort has any less of an advantage. The odds of you getting past him are LESS than the odds of you getting past a sniper, and the odds of you killing him are about the same as the odds of you killing the sniper. Again, it's certainly dependent on the player, but the k:d stats seem to support me.

In response to Sidd's post, who I appreciate trying to look at this in an unbiased way, I feel that:
1) The sniper certainly has counters on most maps. Aardvark is a crazy good sniper map. Most maps are limited to a range where soldiers (and most classes, really) have a chance of killing a sniper even at the longest distances on the map (2fort/openfire range) and spies are certainly a counter almost everywhere.
2) Your 3A solution, which you say is your favorite, is something that I can probably live with, but those classes are already at an advantage in getting past snipers. Even on aardvark decent scouts and medics get past even the best of snipers a large majority of the time.

Originally Posted by mervaka

so in short, you're putting the onus back onto the victim to "get skills"? hardly appealing to new players.

Every game that relies heavily on skill and less on luck is going to put off new players, and I think FF qualifies. I don't think that that's necessarily an excuse to make the game more noob-friendly though.

Originally Posted by mervaka

it's not fun playing against a sniper at the moment.

It's not fun playing against any good players - particularly if you're playing offense and keep getting owned before you ever touch the flag. Every defensive class in the right hands can do this.