Beliefs on God, the Universe, and Everything - Page 3

uBeR · 01-12-2010, 03:29 AM

Er, yes, what I meant to say (evidenced by the subsequent sentences) is what you said: "no one believes that what you see or hear is not believed to be true by you." (It would have been easier if I wasn't trying to write a double negative.) I've corrected it. Thanks.

Scuzzy · 01-12-2010, 11:40 AM

Which isn't his point, he's asking if you'll accept that he's allowed to feel it's true, which most of you don't. You deride him, say he's delusional, say it's just a dream, say it's a misfire in the brain, discount his experience. You'll never accept that he has experienced something that is true and honest that you will not. I am also fairly certain that none of you hear understood that fire would burn you, or believed it to be true, until you felt the heat when you were a child. Just as you were not sure if a certain dish would taste good the first time without seeing it, smelling it, tasting it.

Scuzzy

uBeR · 01-12-2010, 02:48 PM

Actually, everyone so far has said "he's allowed to feel it's true." You would do well to actually bother to read what's been posted. Furthermore, what I and others have said, which you would know if you bothered to read, was that just because one feels something is absolutely true does not make it true. That's based on the simple fact that empiricism is not fool-proof. I can absolutely believe there's a unicorn sitting in my room reading Frege out loud. That doesn't make it true though, does it? I can of course say that such an experience is ineffable, must be experienced to be realized, etc., but that means absolutely nothing.

Does anyone here believe the sun will rise tomorrow? How can you know if you've not experienced the future? If you actually doubt that you cannot know what you have not experienced, you ought to be skeptical as to whether the sun will rise tomorrow morning. You, of course, would be opposed to long philosophical tenet of logic called inductive reasoning.

Scuzzy · 01-12-2010, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uBeR

Actually, everyone so far has said "he's allowed to feel it's true." You would do well to actually bother to read what's been posted. Furthermore, what I and others have said, which you would know if you bothered to read, was that just because one feels something is absolutely true does not make it true. That's based on the simple fact that empiricism is not fool-proof. I can absolutely believe there's a unicorn sitting in my room reading Frege out loud. That doesn't make it true though, does it? I can of course say that such an experience is ineffable, must be experienced to be realized, etc., but that means absolutely nothing.

I did read the thread uBeR, you do not need to jump to personal attacks right from the beginning. You have a common framework with Iggy, I'm surprised that you don't support him based on the same evidence you two have together.

Scuzzy

uBeR · 01-12-2010, 04:13 PM

No, sorry, I don't hear whispers from the dead.

[AE] 82694 · 01-12-2010, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uBeR

Does anyone here believe the sun will rise tomorrow? How can you know if you've not experienced the future? If you actually doubt that you cannot know what you have not experienced, you ought to be skeptical as to whether the sun will rise tomorrow morning. You, of course, would be opposed to long philosophical tenet of logic called inductive reasoning.

I believe you just described Faith, None of know for sure the sun will rise tomorrow but we have faith it will.

uBeR · 01-12-2010, 04:30 PM

No, faith means a lack of evidence. We have evidence that the sun will rise tomorrow, though we have yet to experience it. Inductive reasoning is "moving from a set of specific facts to a general conclusion." That is, there are facts that support but do not deductively entail the conclusion. It is in this way the inductive reasoning results in probable (but not certain) conclusions. From the specific to the general. I can say with a high degree of probability the sun will rise tomorrow morning, just as it has everyday in the past. That's inductive reasoning. Saying God exists because I hear whispers means nothing. There's no evidence to support either case. It's not inductive reasoning.

Scuzzy · 01-12-2010, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uBeR

No, faith means a lack of evidence. We have evidence that the sun will rise tomorrow, though we have yet to experience it. Inductive reasoning is "moving from a set of specific facts to a general conclusion." That is, there are facts that support but do not deductively entail the conclusion. It is in this way the inductive reasoning results in probable (but not certain) conclusions. From the specific to the general. I can say with a high degree of probability the sun will rise tomorrow morning, just as it has everyday in the past. That's inductive reasoning. Saying God exists because I hear whispers means nothing. There's no evidence to support either case. It's not inductive reasoning.

That doesn't mean that it is not true or that is false. For instance, uBeR, from what you have said in the past you believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God. Is it true that he the son of God or is it false? Iggy's knowledge of the truth of his situation is probably like your knowledge of the truth of yours, which is what I was saying prior. If you're unwilling to say that it isn't "true" that Jesus is the son of God then frankly you're in the exact same boat as he is. You know something to be true based on your own personal experience, but that which you can not explain or transmit to others.

Scuzzy

uBeR · 01-12-2010, 10:10 PM

I don't know that Jesus was the son of God based on any personal experience, neither do I know it based on any other evidence. I do not know it. If I do not know it, I especially would not expect anyone else to accept it as as truth, so I don't. In fact, I expect them to be very skeptical of any such claim, as they should be.

Etzell · 01-12-2010, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scuzzy

That doesn't mean that it is not true or that is false. For instance, uBeR, from what you have said in the past you believe that Jesus Christ is the son of God. Is it true that he the son of God or is it false? Iggy's knowledge of the truth of his situation is probably like your knowledge of the truth of yours, which is what I was saying prior. If you're unwilling to say that it isn't "true" that Jesus is the son of God then frankly you're in the exact same boat as he is. You know something to be true based on your own personal experience, but that which you can not explain or transmit to others.

Scuzzy

That's the difference between Truth and truth.
The Bible is seen as Truth. But it cannot be proven as truth.

Scuzzy · 01-12-2010, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uBeR

I don't know that Jesus was the son of God based on any personal experience, neither do I know it based on any other evidence.

I apologize, I should rephrase: You know something to be true based on the grace of God, but that which you can not explain or transmit to others. Is it "true" that Jesus is the son of God, or not? If you say no, then the discussion is over and I apologize for believing that you were a Christian. If you say that it is true, a fact, but you can not explain how you know it to be fact to others, then you and Iggy are in the same boat.

Scuzzy

Etzell · 01-12-2010, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scuzzy

I apologize, I should rephrase: You know something to be true based on the grace of God, but that which you can not explain or transmit to others. Is it "true" that Jesus is the son of God, or not? If you say no, then the discussion is over and I apologize for believing that you were a Christian. If you say that it is true, a fact, but you can not explain how you know it to be fact to others, then you and Iggy are in the same boat.

Scuzzy

You're expecting too much of Theology. Your answer can only be as precise as your science. Expecting Theology to be as exact as chemistry doesn't work, based on the nature of the beast.

uBeR · 01-12-2010, 11:45 PM

One cannot know something unless it's true. Otherwise it's not knowledge. Every epistemologist in the world believes this. Anyone who claims to know Jesus is the son of God, or that God exists for that matter, must prove that such a claim is true, in the epistemic sense. The same holds for anyone who claims they know they're hearing whispers from dead people. There's a difference between belief and knowledge.

Do I know Jesus is the son of God? I don't know it. I don't even believe it. I became an atheist in 2009.

Scuzzy · 01-13-2010, 12:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uBeR

One cannot know something unless it's true. Otherwise it's not knowledge. Every epistemologist in the world believes this. Anyone who claims to know Jesus is the son of God, or that God exists for that matter, must prove that such a claim is true, in the epistemic sense. The same holds for anyone who claims they know they're hearing whispers from dead people. There's a difference between belief and knowledge.

Do I know Jesus is the son of God? I don't know it. I don't even believe it. I became an atheist in 2009.

Well, then this is a case where the evidence all along has proved the fact suspected. How ironic.

Scuzzy

Etzell · 01-13-2010, 01:52 AM

Nothing like harassing someone because of their faith, eh?

uBeR · 01-13-2010, 02:41 AM

We shouldn't put anything beneath the troll, nor should we feed it too much.

Scuzzy · 01-13-2010, 02:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etzell

Nothing like harassing someone because of their faith, eh?

I don't believe you can harass an atheist for faith. Aside from that I didn't harass him, I agree with his supposition that when there's a massive amount of evidence to a fact, no matter what someone may say or lie about, that indeed the truth is usually still that fact. He's right, I admit that in this case. You should be happy that we agree.

Scuzzy

FrenchToast · 01-13-2010, 03:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scuzzy

I don't believe you can harass an atheist for faith.

Sure you can. Atheism is as much faithbased as any other ideology, just not in the traditional sense.

YomMamasHouse · 01-13-2010, 03:16 AM

I suppose that is correct if you talk about strong atheism.

What should we call a lack of belief in God that requires no faith? I really don't want to fit into the agnostic category, anything but that. Maybe I'll refer to myself as non-theist.

Quote:

Do I know Jesus is the son of God? I don't know it. I don't even believe it. I became an atheist in 2009.

What was the deciding moment that resulted in this?

GenghisTron · 01-13-2010, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FrenchToast

Sure you can. Atheism is as much faithbased as any other ideology, just not in the traditional sense.

Exactly. Most people don't realize this.

01-12-2010, 03:29 AM	#41
uBeR Not ****** Yet D&A Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Minnesota Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Er, yes, what I meant to say (evidenced by the subsequent sentences) is what you said: "no one believes that what you see or hear is not believed to be true by you." (It would have been easier if I wasn't trying to write a double negative.) I've corrected it. Thanks. __________________ OCCUPATION 101. *One would think a simple task would be, well, simple. Maybe not for simpletons.* Last edited by uBeR; 01-12-2010 at 03:33 AM.

01-12-2010, 11:40 AM	#42
Scuzzy The Old Timers Clan D&A Member Retired FF Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Server: 206.217.134.170:27016 Posts Rated Helpful 2 Times	Which isn't his point, he's asking if you'll accept that he's allowed to feel it's true, which most of you don't. You deride him, say he's delusional, say it's just a dream, say it's a misfire in the brain, discount his experience. You'll never accept that he has experienced something that is true and honest that you will not. I am also fairly certain that none of you hear understood that fire would burn you, or believed it to be true, until you felt the heat when you were a child. Just as you were not sure if a certain dish would taste good the first time without seeing it, smelling it, tasting it. Scuzzy __________________ "Player Quality, not Quantity, is what we strive for." - The LLama Wrangler "A clan is defined by the nature of it's enemies. - The Llama Wrangler

01-12-2010, 02:48 PM	#43
uBeR Not ****** Yet D&A Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Minnesota Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Actually, everyone so far has said "he's allowed to feel it's true." You would do well to actually bother to read what's been posted. Furthermore, what I and others have said, which you would know if you bothered to read, was that just because one feels something is absolutely true does not make it true. That's based on the simple fact that empiricism is not fool-proof. I can absolutely believe there's a unicorn sitting in my room reading Frege out loud. That doesn't make it true though, does it? I can of course say that such an experience is ineffable, must be experienced to be realized, etc., but that means absolutely nothing. Does anyone here believe the sun will rise tomorrow? How can you know if you've not experienced the future? If you actually doubt that you cannot know what you have not experienced, you ought to be skeptical as to whether the sun will rise tomorrow morning. You, of course, would be opposed to long philosophical tenet of logic called inductive reasoning. __________________ OCCUPATION 101. *One would think a simple task would be, well, simple. Maybe not for simpletons.* Last edited by uBeR; 01-12-2010 at 02:48 PM.

01-12-2010, 04:13 PM	#45
uBeR Not ****** Yet D&A Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Minnesota Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	No, sorry, I don't hear whispers from the dead. __________________ OCCUPATION 101. *One would think a simple task would be, well, simple. Maybe not for simpletons.*

01-12-2010, 04:30 PM	#47
uBeR Not ****** Yet D&A Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Minnesota Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	No, faith means a lack of evidence. We have evidence that the sun will rise tomorrow, though we have yet to experience it. Inductive reasoning is "moving from a set of specific facts to a general conclusion." That is, there are facts that support but do not deductively entail the conclusion. It is in this way the inductive reasoning results in probable (but not certain) conclusions. From the specific to the general. I can say with a high degree of probability the sun will rise tomorrow morning, just as it has everyday in the past. That's inductive reasoning. Saying God exists because I hear whispers means nothing. There's no evidence to support either case. It's not inductive reasoning. __________________ OCCUPATION 101. *One would think a simple task would be, well, simple. Maybe not for simpletons.* Last edited by uBeR; 01-12-2010 at 04:30 PM.

01-12-2010, 10:10 PM	#49
uBeR Not ****** Yet D&A Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Minnesota Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I don't know that Jesus was the son of God based on any personal experience, neither do I know it based on any other evidence. I do not know it. If I do not know it, I especially would not expect anyone else to accept it as as truth, so I don't. In fact, I expect them to be very skeptical of any such claim, as they should be. __________________ OCCUPATION 101. *One would think a simple task would be, well, simple. Maybe not for simpletons.*

01-12-2010, 11:45 PM	#53
uBeR Not ****** Yet D&A Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Minnesota Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	One cannot know something unless it's true. Otherwise it's not knowledge. Every epistemologist in the world believes this. Anyone who claims to know Jesus is the son of God, or that God exists for that matter, must prove that such a claim is true, in the epistemic sense. The same holds for anyone who claims they know they're hearing whispers from dead people. There's a difference between belief and knowledge. Do I know Jesus is the son of God? I don't know it. I don't even believe it. I became an atheist in 2009. __________________ OCCUPATION 101. *One would think a simple task would be, well, simple. Maybe not for simpletons.* Last edited by uBeR; 01-12-2010 at 11:50 PM.

01-13-2010, 01:52 AM	#55
Etzell D&A Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Nothing like harassing someone because of their faith, eh?

01-13-2010, 02:41 AM	#56
uBeR Not ****** Yet D&A Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Minnesota Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	We shouldn't put anything beneath the troll, nor should we feed it too much. __________________ OCCUPATION 101. *One would think a simple task would be, well, simple. Maybe not for simpletons.*

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