Identifying spies is too difficult

[SuicideChicken]

Originally Posted by lollerskates

If only spies bleed, you can do a spy check with a weak weapon.

if friendly fire is on, everyone will bleed.

[lollerskates]

Originally Posted by skuLL

It isn't hard ):
Just recognize fucking moving speed.

I am perfectly aware of that, but you can't always tell someone is a spy by looking at movement speed.

Originally Posted by SuicideChicken

if friendly fire is on, everyone will bleed.

I rarely played TF/TFC with friendly fire. Fortress Forever makes it even less appealing.

Why not add a spycheck that all the classes can use? Make all the players, friendly or not, grunt when they're shot so that you reduce that form of spy checking. Instead, when they get close to someone (I'm thinking medpack range, maybe even a few 'feet') and hit the use key, they can reveal that person if they're a spy. You can introduce the reveal in a number of ways.

• You can do a full revealing, like a scout does automatically.
• The icon above their head changes to the enemy team's color but the disguise remains. The icon stays that way until the disguise is changed, they cloak, or for a time period.
• The player's voice says something like "Hey, I think this guy is a spy!"
• There could be a margin of error built in, like 1/4 of the time the player is fooled by the spy.
• etc.

Spies and Scouts would still reveal automatically, but this might be an effective spycheck without having everyone running around shooting each other (although tricking enemies into killing each other on friendly fire servers is the most satisfying thing ever)...

You would probably want to use a command other than use now that I think of it, otherwise people will just make scripts that constantly spycheck. Make it's own command and have it require a certain time period between checks (perhaps 3 seconds). This will change the dynamic of spies from just getting constantly shot every time they show their face, but allow people a method for effectively "challenging" and revealing spies...

Someone else mentioned an interesting idea. Reducing the effectiveness of the disguise tied with armor or health damage. If the spy is damaged they periodically "glitch", so their cloak will periodically fail for a split second while they're moving, or their disguise will switch to another (like suddenly from engy to soldier on the same team). It shouldn't happen a lot, but enough for a spy to have to be very careful and seek out health/armor...

With something like that, I also think spies should be able to use enemy supply bags, but at a lower effectiveness... like receiving 1/4 of the supplies and health that their enemy would get from the same bag.

[lollerskates]

Originally Posted by Reynolds-Wrap

Why not add a spycheck that all the classes can use?

I think it's quite difficult to achieve a good balance between sensible spy checking and allowing spies to blend in if they're skilled enough. Clan matches and public servers both have their issues. I don't think the gameplay of TF really supports intelligent and clever infiltration too well.

Now that I think about it, maybe it isn't really that bad that spy checking is harder, but it does mean that you have to be in a constant state of paranoia (unless the enemy spy is being really obvious by disguising as a scout etc.), unless you want to empty your ammo supply into every teammate that passes by.

I don't know. I guess I'll have to think about this a bit more.


Perhaps I should try to counter the enemy's "shoot first ask later" policy by making myself completely inconspicuous (engineer leaves the room, I de-cloak and enter the room afterwards).

That's usually what I do. I attempt to avoid contact whenever possible. I figure if an engy has an SG up, he has to go get cells/ammo for it someday. Most engies aren't even patient enough to stand by their gun the whole game, especially if it's in a low-traffic area like a flagroom. I get as close as I can while cloaked without getting shot by the SG, at least to where I can see what the engy is up to, and as soon as he runs off I unclock and get to the SG as fast as I can and either activate the sabotage as soon as it's finished or try to get to where I can recloak and set it off when mr. engineer returns...

My favorite thing to do is to sabotage a dispenser, and stand, unclocked, on the opposite side of it from the engy, then hit my "engyme" button... They run over to give me armor and just as they near their dispenser it explodes in their face.

[Ohcanep]

Originally Posted by mervaka

spychecks are supposed to be harder in FF

Which was needed, I reckon.

I'm not a huge spy fan but c'mon, those poor spies used to suffer from the "if it bleeds, shoot more" practice on all non friendly fire servers. As said, firing any weapon still helps if your teammates are suspecting you and vice versa.

[Ihmhi]

If you suspect someone of being a Spy, tell them to shoot their weapon.

Medics and Engineers can spycheck - it's called the medkit and spanner. If it is a friendly, you do not hurt them - if not, you do.

[lollerskates]

Originally Posted by Reynolds-Wrap

That's usually what I do. I attempt to avoid contact whenever possible. I figure if an engy has an SG up, he has to go get cells/ammo for it someday. Most engies aren't even patient enough to stand by their gun the whole game, especially if it's in a low-traffic area like a flagroom. I get as close as I can while cloaked without getting shot by the SG, at least to where I can see what the engy is up to, and as soon as he runs off I unclock and get to the SG as fast as I can and either activate the sabotage as soon as it's finished or try to get to where I can recloak and set it off when mr. engineer returns...

My favorite thing to do is to sabotage a dispenser, and stand, unclocked, on the opposite side of it from the engy, then hit my "engyme" button... They run over to give me armor and just as they near their dispenser it explodes in their face.

When I played TFC I started to get tired of disguising and being crafty, and tended to just blast my way through, which actually worked suprisingly well. I have to get back to the cloak and dagger mindset.

[BumGravy]

Or play medic or pyro

Id be gutted if they take out the friendly bleeding, if you cant tell spies in your own base then its your own problem. I got annoyed with it at first too, but then realised it just makes you think of your defense layout more, who is who and where people are defending -> good things.

[fidy]

Just shoot a player - if they grunt, proceed to go wild filling them with buckshot and/or your explosive of choice.
Spychecking is easy enough as is. The biggest problem for me is spies kamikaziing my SGs or sabotaging it while I'm resupplying.

[Boogieman117]

Remember, scouts can broush up againist enemy spies and uncloak them.

It is supposed to be hard to tell when there is a skilled spy in your base. Spy is a "Real Class (TM)" now and people need to adapt rather than yelling for nerfs because their SG got sabotaged (most of the bitching is from engineers I've noticed).

If a spy has enough time to get two nades on your SG before you blow him away then its your fault for being too slow. If I read any more recommendations that nading SG's be nerfed I think it will be my head that goes boom.

[df`]

Perhaps this dynamic will bring the advent of the D scout/spy. It is a different game, after all.

[beaver_shots]

Its hard to get over on the D as a spy. Sure the first time you come into the flag room and sab all the sgs and blow every thing up and take the flag its not that hard. But once the D is on the look out for a spy its hard. Some times as spy ill hang out in the flag room for 1-2 mins as an engy or whatever till it feels like they trust me then go for the kills. I think its fine the way it is.

best advice I can give you is spend a few days playing spy to get a feel for what you go though. That will help you catch on to them as a defender.

I've actually already seen that, df', when we've had really bad spy problems I saw someone go scout and just run around bumping into people, (works well in the presence of SG). Also running along the walls trying to find cloaked spies. It was actually pretty effective because of the scout's speed.

I still think there can be some changes that won't unbalance the game and make the spy part of it not so hit-and-miss... It pretty much now depends on D that doesn't do shooting spychecks, which I'm sure will be less and less as more people learn the game. Might be a good time to evaluate methods to keep the spy useful while still allowing D to check for spies without going gunspamming.

[Ihmhi]

Ways to detect a Spy

Red ones only work with FF off.

• Hit 'em with the flamethrower, he'll catch fire if he's an enemy.
• Hit 'em with the medkit.
• Hit 'em with the spanner.
• Have a Spy touch him.
• Have a Scout touch him.
• Tell him to shoot his weapon.
• Keep an eye on team doors, elevators, etc. - see if he opens them.
• Listen for the grunt if you damage him.

I think eight ways to detect a Spy is plenty.

[mervaka]

i think the "keep an eye on him" part needs a bit more emphasis. watch his behaviour. there's only so much he can do when he's disguised:

* toss grenades
* sabotage SGs/dispensers
* backstab

if he lines himself up for any of those, then go tap him with a spanner or something. engineers are normally the best anti spy tool in that respect.

i'm also pushing for pain sounds being played when you shoot a friendly with FF off.

[lollerskates]

Originally Posted by beaver_shots

Some times as spy ill hang out in the flag room for 1-2 mins as an engy or whatever till it feels like they trust me then go for the kills. I think its fine the way it is.

The problem with that approach is that you're giving the enemy 1-2 minutes to spy check you. Eventually someone is going to do it. If there's an engineer there, he'll definitely do it. I think it's the rampant paranoia that makes it pretty hard to spy in FF. In TFC people weren't so quick to shoot at everyone. As far as I remember, at least.

On an unrelated note, does anyone else have problems backstabbing? I find that most of my backstabs don't connect at all, and it's quickly becoming a very unreliable method of killing people.

[mervaka]

wait, so

first you're saying its too difficult to tell who's a spy
now you're saying you find it hard to play as spy?

make your mind up.

[lollerskates]

Originally Posted by mervaka

wait, so

first you're saying its too difficult to tell who's a spy
now you're saying you find it hard to play as spy?

make your mind up.

The two are not mutually exclusive.