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Old 05-11-2014, 01:07 AM   #81
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I'm not arguing for changing the system of CTF (I do argue for changing some OvD things, the flag wallhack and flaglag is really dumb), I'm arguing for changing the classes to better fit within said systems.

TF2 did have a good idea to offer unlocks and different ways to approach the same situation. People are still playing dustbowl there and making it work with totally new weapons.
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Old 05-11-2014, 01:40 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by XPelargos View Post
I'm not arguing for changing the system of CTF (I do argue for changing some OvD things, the flag wallhack and flaglag is really dumb), I'm arguing for changing the classes to better fit within said systems.

TF2 did have a good idea to offer unlocks and different ways to approach the same situation. People are still playing dustbowl there and making it work with totally new weapons.
I was referring to jon and motos ideas of forcing ovd or teaching and setting better examples for ctf. I think they're both irrelevant because it doesn't come down to ones understanding, or how ctf is set up.

Like wise I think any sort of developement on forcing or creating ovd would be a waste. We already play ovd pretty exclusively and it's proven not to really be the problem with ctf. Not only that but teaching people ovd has almost ruined our chances of having a full OvO game even when we have a full server.

If our goal is to have a healthy game with a larger player base, then ovo should probly be the outcome for ctf. That makes OvD a bandaid for our low player counts, rather than a solution for ctf. CTF doesn't need a "solution", or "fixing".
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Old 05-11-2014, 01:56 AM   #83
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That's the problem with the class system we have now. If you want people to play OvD style so you set it up where each team has certain classes to choose from instead of any class, you get the problem where someone wants to go soldier or demoman on offense, which is quite plausible in a normal game. Of course there are a couple classes that you could argue that serve no purpose on the defending or offending team such as scout on D or HW on O. So disabling these classes on those teams would solve some issues unless you get people who still want to play a regular game, not OvD.

Then, you must worry about the scoreboard showing something like 150-0 with OvD each map which confuses people to the goal of the map. What's the point in capturing if the other team is always going to have 0 points? Maybe instead it could be a cap-based mode where the map changes after a certain number of caps or try to improve the regular CTF mode without going the route of OvD. I personally think that is the best option as we already have most CTF maps with 2 bases or more.

Awesome news Jon, thanks for letting us in on the secret. Can't wait to see where this takes FF in the future.
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Old 05-11-2014, 02:44 AM   #84
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That's the problem with the class system we have now. If you want people to play OvD style so you set it up where each team has certain classes to choose from instead of any class, you get the problem where someone wants to go soldier or demoman on offense, which is quite plausible in a normal game. Of course there are a couple classes that you could argue that serve no purpose on the defending or offending team such as scout on D or HW on O. So disabling these classes on those teams would solve some issues unless you get people who still want to play a regular game, not OvD.

Then, you must worry about the scoreboard showing something like 150-0 with OvD each map which confuses people to the goal of the map. What's the point in capturing if the other team is always going to have 0 points? Maybe instead it could be a cap-based mode where the map changes after a certain number of caps or try to improve the regular CTF mode without going the route of OvD. I personally think that is the best option as we already have most CTF maps with 2 bases or more.

Awesome news Jon, thanks for letting us in on the secret. Can't wait to see where this takes FF in the future.
Still pointless. I think it's generally bad game design to be restrictive of classes like that. You'll just end up with more team stacking, or people just not being able to play what they want and being bumbed out for being forced into something. And again ovd is just a bandaid for player count. CTF is fine, there's no need to change it. Besides why would you want to force players into a game mode that is restrictive on classes, when you could let them play game modes that let people play what they want?

That's why I think the focus should be put on a DM mode where both teams simultaneously work toward the same objective. Avd is good, but it's still a little restrictive on classes depending on what team you're on, and not all the classes are seen as particularly usefull.

That's why I like sequential point maps. DM is a big part of it, but so is movement, and for both teams. It doesn't matter if you're red or blue, you can go scout and try to conc past the other team to try and back cap their point while they're focused on yours. Soldiers can defend their point or rocket jump to the next point attacking with his team or going for a couple choice picks. Spys can sneak and do sneaky stuff. Even sniper fits fairly well into the game mode. If there aren't any ridiculous line of sights for him, he can be effective but still easy enough to deal with.

I think with even a half way decent map design it would flow well and not come to nearly as many stand offs as warpath does. And I don't think it'd be nearly as hard to design as ddm suggests.

And I'll have to begrudgingly admit I agree king of the hill would be a good pub mode if set up like tf2. The main reason being that rounds come to a guaranteed end. A big problem with DM game modes in FF is how it can come to a stand still, with the round dragging on for ever. In koth, rounds can only last like 5 to 6 minutes, and that's if the teams are having a lot of back and forth, close gameplay. But the clock is always ticking down. I'm not as much a fan of it, because the simpler objective and map design tap on some classes potential as much, scout would be mostly useless. But it's simple and easy for pubs, and it doesn't drag on.
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Old 05-11-2014, 04:39 AM   #85
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I don't think limiting classes or limiting only to OvD in CTF is the answer. I don't know who wants to play 9v9 2fort OvD, I don't. Perhaps a new game mode? There were many creative maps in beta, maybe a CTF OvD style variant?

As for players playing classes as intended, I think there needs to be more incentive and direction. (extra points for killing a scout inside your base vs in the yard?) Personally i don't think fortress points are an incentive for anything. But perhaps a major rework on the fortress points, like some persistent scoring that adds after each game. Player profiles? Something like that.
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Old 05-11-2014, 10:47 AM   #86
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Nah, just give fewer classes more to do. Bam.
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Old 05-11-2014, 02:33 PM   #87
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I think ovd maps are a great idea, just don't be overly restrictive. You don't have to force pickup classes, just eliminate things that would be completely useless or mostly for griefing. Maybe no sniper, HW, and engie on O (or disable buildables); and no scout, medic, and spy, on d.

The class selection screen plays a big part in how people feel restricted, classes shouldn't be "greyed out," but rather only list the available classes. Greying things out implies things that are normally available, but have been made unavailable for some reason. A restriction. It would be like playing a soccer/football video game where there are 6 goalie slots, but 5 are greyed out. The first question you might ask is "why are there even 6 goalie slots?" That sounds silly because in real life no one has implied that there should ever be 6 goalies, so you never felt restricted about having 1 goalie. The video game is implying that there can be 6 goalies, but not this time. You shouldn't give the idea that a player should be able to play d scout, but not this time. Give the immediate impression of "scout is not played on defense in this game."

Classes should be clearly listed based on their role for the appropriate side, also it should be made very obvious that you are on the O or D team.

Something like,

OFFENSE
You are on the offense team, attack the enemy base and get their flag!

FLAG RUNNER
scout
SUPPORT/AUXILIARY FLAG RUNNER
medic
spy
SUPPORT
soldier
demoman
pyro

The emphasis is on the team and class role, not the class itself. Instead of "what do I do and why can't I do this," you're presented with "Here's what you're doing, and here's what you're doing it with." The idea of even asking the question "Why can't I play o HW" (from the perspective of someone completely new) isn't even brought up.
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Old 05-11-2014, 03:13 PM   #88
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I mean, along with what you're saying cake, just renaming 'Blue Team' and 'Red Team' to 'Offence' and 'Defence' on CTF maps would make new players figure it out really quickly.

That and removing the blue flag, so people can't play wrong if they try. :P

Also, I hate people who say defence medic is dumb. Not like you can chase down a scout with the flag and kill them with the super shotty, and heal teammates at the same time.

SOMEONE MAKE JPADS INVINCIBLE IN YOUR TEAMS BASE KTHXBYE

( Almost finished the alpha of an SCP map. Too lazy to put 8 spawn areas in, so base has teleporters to enclosed resupply areas if you have the cap instead. :P )

EDIT: Offense and Defense then, for you Americans.
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Old 05-11-2014, 03:21 PM   #89
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You guys are trying way to hard to make something worse than it already is. CTF has always relied on players conforming to certain ideas and rule sets for it to work out well. A lot of people outside this game don't understand that or just don't really like it. But we're ok with it because we know it will lead to the most fun for CTF. It's restrictive by nature. But instead of focusing on less restrictive forms of play you all just want to force people into something.

And hiding the restrictions doesn't make it any less so.
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Old 05-11-2014, 03:58 PM   #90
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Originally Posted by FDA_Approved View Post
You guys are trying way to hard to make something worse than it already is. CTF has always relied on players conforming to certain ideas and rule sets for it to work out well. A lot of people outside this game don't understand that or just don't really like it. But we're ok with it because we know it will lead to the most fun for CTF. It's restrictive by nature. But instead of focusing on less restrictive forms of play you all just want to force people into something.

And hiding the restrictions doesn't make it any less so.
And implementing an actual OvD system makes these restrictions actually visible rather than them being unknown to those who haven't played.
It makes the restrictive forms actually obvious, because absolutely nothing says to you that Blue is Offense and Red is Defense currently, and that just leads to new players being confused and not knowing what the hell is happening.

Also, the reason that we are 'focusing' on this is because it currently is what the majority of FF has been for the last billion years or however long it's been.
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Old 05-11-2014, 04:32 PM   #91
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The idea is to present it in a way that will allow new players to see CTF the way we do. I know this is basically impossible, but I think we can do a lot better. An underlying problem with this kind of game is it takes experience (sometimes a lot, bhop and concing for example) to even understand why it's good. You don't know this until you're already decent at it. I think this is a conveyance problem, not a game-type problem. You personally are not forced to not play d scout or d spy, but you wouldn't anyway. Why? Because you know it makes for a better game. You know what constitutes a fun CTF game. So lead the player in that direction. Poor conveyance was the status quo years ago; you could expect someone to basically play until they were good enough at it that they knew what out of the infinite possible things you could do what actually worked and was fun. You can't expect that of modern gamers, have whatever opinion of that you want, it's reality. So show them what works, make it easier for them to get from "wtf do i do" to running flags.

Although avd works slightly better I feel like it's a bandaid for this. You're dealing with a conveyance problem by providing a gametype that's so obvious it needs no conveyance, and honestly doesn't really represent what's good about traditional fortress to a new player. In fact from the perspective of a new player you might as well just play tf2, since you're basically getting none of what makes this game better, and you aren't leading them to find out why it's better.

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Old 05-11-2014, 04:50 PM   #92
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Also, I hate people who say defence medic is dumb. Not like you can chase down a scout with the flag and kill them with the super shotty, and heal teammates at the same time.
That's the point, it's ineffective and mostly annoying. So the D medic either loses the game for his team, or his team becomes stacked slightly more to compensate and the O has to deal with a medic running around randomly blocking/infecting/chasing.
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Old 05-11-2014, 07:00 PM   #93
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Actually if I could D medic in pick ups I'd be a hero. I'm pro at being lame.
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Old 05-12-2014, 03:11 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by FDA_Approved View Post
You guys are trying way to hard to make something worse than it already is. CTF has always relied on players conforming to certain ideas and rule sets for it to work out well. A lot of people outside this game don't understand that or just don't really like it. But we're ok with it because we know it will lead to the most fun for CTF. It's restrictive by nature. But instead of focusing on less restrictive forms of play you all just want to force people into something.

And hiding the restrictions doesn't make it any less so.
Actually it's everything you said but the complete opposite. More restrictions that are properly conveyed make the game more appealing. As cake said, conveyance is the issue.

With too much freedom, some new players don't know what to do
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Old 05-13-2014, 12:25 AM   #95
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For ctf I always thought the circle map design/layout of waterwheel (i think) for TFC would work awesome for newbs playing in pubs. If I remember correctly, in the spawn there were 2 arrows signs for offense/defense with different door/paths. the player chooses whatever he wants to play and goes through the appropriate door. For team 1 The offense door leads to the other teams base/defense and the same for team 2. Since the map is in a circle layout team1's offense does not confront team2's offense. the player is funnelled/focused into a o/d role without the ovo dm distraction.
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Old 05-14-2014, 01:26 AM   #96
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More restrictions that are properly conveyed make the game more appealing.
That's easy for you to say being familiar with the game but it's not true for everyone. The tf2 players that tried playing in our league really did not like the set up even after we explained it to them. Obviously there's a huge problem of conveyance in this game. But tbh forcing people into classes and the ovd setup still does not really teach them what is so great about our "speed vs. stopping power" structure that we've set up. It doesn't teach them what's so great about playing positions and following "rules" to support that structure. And they're not likely to ever understand it unless they were already willing to learn the intricacies of movement and dm in FF. Such an ovd structure would really only serve to satisfy a fairly small portion of our already small player base, and risk annoying others.

Tbh I just really don't like pounding the idea of ovd into peoples heads because it's a solution for smaller player counts. And while it seriously annoys/saddens me to see someone play D scout and try to DM everything, it also annoys me to play O against 2 hw's and an SG in the foyar, 2 soldiers on button, a soldier and pyro main and a hw sg and demo in the FR. And while a full game of ovo is really just 2 games of ovd, our current pub scene has proven how much trouble they have making the transition between the two.

There is a problem of conveyance that is hard to address. One small thing that could be done is split up the class list like cake mentioned. It should have two sections labeled offense and defense. And I think there should also be a bigger emphasis on the training section too. The first time you load up the game a window should pop up that says something like "You may see other players performing movement techniques you don't understand. They're easy to perform and can be taught via the tutorial." It should have one of those "never show me this again" check boxes so that it pops up every time until you've paid it at least enough attention to click that.

And maybe the training should be restructured. I think rocket jumps and pipe jumps should be left towards the end as they're pretty straight forward, just about anyone could figure those out on their own in no time. It should start with air control, move onto bhop, then concing, then trimps/djumps, and then put all the other basic shit in. And perhaps provide a visual example of a practical use for each. I know some games will play back demos in tutorials. So for the concing example you could show a really sick flag cap, making the player think "wowsers that's neat, that's why i'm wasting my time on this tutorial i wanna do that.".

And I still think it's really important to have a game mode where someone can come in, join either team, pick any class, and do something to support your teams objective. Obviously there will always be the limitation of how many people on a team are playing a given class, but that's unavoidable.
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Old 05-14-2014, 02:57 PM   #97
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I was referring to jon and motos ideas of forcing ovd or teaching and setting better examples for ctf. I think they're both irrelevant because it doesn't come down to ones understanding, or how ctf is set up.

Like wise I think any sort of developement on forcing or creating ovd would be a waste. We already play ovd pretty exclusively and it's proven not to really be the problem with ctf. Not only that but teaching people ovd has almost ruined our chances of having a full OvO game even when we have a full server.

If our goal is to have a healthy game with a larger player base, then ovo should probly be the outcome for ctf. That makes OvD a bandaid for our low player counts, rather than a solution for ctf. CTF doesn't need a "solution", or "fixing".
My thing would never be about forcing anything.

Right now, we force classic CTF on everyone, which is fine.

Except we know more about games, gaming, and game development nowadays (even from a TF standpoint), so we know that mode doesn't work all the time.

Also, I would never cut a class, just try to balance. Some people don't like snipers, that's fine, but I love them and so do plenty of other players.

Never going to please everyone without considering everyone
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Old 05-14-2014, 05:29 PM   #98
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Would you consider adding classes then?
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Old 05-24-2014, 12:32 PM   #99
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Sure why not, should be open to everything.

There should always be a core game with core classes and maps and whatnot, the default/vanilla version of FF, aka the C in TFC. Then through Steam Workshop, we can allow people to customize their experience from a more TFC feel to TF2 to QWTF to FF to Axl's TFC/TF2 to whatever they want.

Step one is to stop bickering over dumb crap. All that matters at this point is what we do going forward, because at this point FF is a good example for how to make a game in a bubble.

What I'm proposing is for FF to embrace Steam and its Workshop, so we let everyone play and make TF however they want while also providing a few "featured" modes like default FF vs something like Axl's FF or whatever.

For anyone worried about something like "well then people won't play FF the way I want them to" well so what...if they're experiencing it how they want, it's not up to you whether they should be bhopping or playing ovd or strictly fun maps or whatever.

The whole reason I even got into indie gamemaking was because I discovered modding of Half-Life through mapping for Team Fortress Classic.

How is it that a game based on that is somehow closed off so much and filled with so many players who want to force their awesome/shitty way on everyone else? That's never been the TF spirit and anyone who thinks that way needs to rethink their dyes.

Also, I was just messing around with a GoPro and managed to get some FF in it...

We basically need to make an FF sequel of sorts, but it's still just FF...but on Steam embracing workshop and modding as it always should have.

*edit*

On a personal level regarding my own adventures through games and gamedev, Fortress Forever's lack of openness has always blown my mind and I don't even know why it's this way when I've had the ability to change it since FF's inception 10 years ago in the TFC/QWTF community and on the old catacomb forums and whatnot. Like this for example, in the early days while deciding to implement lua, Jesse and I wanted FF's lua/entities to be as flexible as possible like TFC was so we could mod FF to the extreme (because we were always more about things like Axl's TFC, Trepid Mapping/Modding, etc), but the other devs (aka a shitty secret club of wannabe leaders guiding FF with what seemed like blind and irrational navigation at times) said no and then we just went with it ("we're not making garry's mod" was basically how it was justified)...because we weren't the "leaders" back then, our titles didn't match what we were doing or trying to do...like ffdev was some kind of indie game development while acting like a giant corporation with a shitty hierarchy and whatnot (a lot of bureaucratic bullshit was going on, a frustrating amount of it), we were just a couple of mappers with loud mouths (I feel like a competent programmer, yet I wasn't given access to FF's code until the "higher ups" finally let me get in there a couple years into the development). My point is, the same shitty broken system that wrecks real businesses was/is prevalent in FF as well. And it's ironic or something, because FF is based on TF, aka Quake and Half-Life code, aka mod everything mod everyone.

I'm about to do this whole FF thing the way I always wanted to. Feel free to join me, because I can't do it by myself.

FF's awesome, but certain things about it just suck. Why keep rolling around in the suck? We can make things better by just making things better, it's not that complicated.
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Old 05-24-2014, 03:22 PM   #100
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What you're proposing as a selling point isn't really a selling point. You have more than one game with a massive community, easier to sell gameplay, and giant communities of people already making and selling items. FF has no community, dated graphics, and gameplay no one under 25 understands. Who would bother making mods and skins if they're not interested in the game to begin with?
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