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Old 07-18-2007, 08:05 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zencheetah
Searching for a way to fix a humans orientation is simply a way of making the people who dislike or disagree with homosexuality more comfortable.
No, it's not. That's not even the direct point being argued.

The question at hand involves a person who believes he/she is supposed to be the opposite sex. And we're really talking about whether it's a better idea to match their body to their mind or their mind to their body. Right now, that person will be in chaos with all existing treatments. We can make a guy look like a girl and that will make that guy feel better if he believes she truely should be a girl. but unfortuenaltely he is still not 100% a woman. He is just a man with implants and a cut and stuffed penis pumped full of hormones.

If making it so that man does not beleive he should be a woman anymore would be possible, then that man would be happier. That is not possible right now. But that's what we're talking about.


To say it's pointless involves a lack of compassion. Look, I don't understand what it's like to be a "woman trapped in a man's body." BUt I can imagine it would be very uncomfortable. Think about the childhood drama alone that could not even be solved through surgery because most schools would mandate that you be in the mens locker room no matter how you look. Imagine the taunting, the teasing and the hazing. You can't fix that.

I don't think that you easily write this off as "pointless."
Are there more important things? Sure. Curing AIDS and cancer would no doubt be a better spending of our time. But one person's pain doesn't make another's dissapear.
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Old 07-18-2007, 08:36 PM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BinaryLife
Think about the childhood drama alone that could not even be solved through surgery...
First excellent point... This is one of the reasons why I favor the "matching the mind to the body" approach instead of surgery, because as many have already noted, the real issue here is mental. Just think of the other areas of medicine that will be impacted if/when psychology becomes a truly mature discipline. It reminds me of the "addictive personality"... for example, today one of the leading treatments for obesity (read: psychologically addicted to food) is the gastric-bypass surgery. Sure, it works well for now, but do some research and you will find that in many cases the addictive personality is not removed or changed whatsoever. It is not uncommon for recipients of the surgery to become addicted to other substances down the road. The only difference between obesity (and other addictions) and homosexuality is that the latter is, of course, not a disease. My point, though, is that I'll be much happier when psychological treatment becomes the first course of action rather than the alternative or supplement to medication/surgery. Also, although this is a fact that few like to mention, these drugs and surgeries cost big bucks and are becoming a bigger burden on the average taxpayer (I'm talking specifically about the U.S.). Treating the underlying problems these people are dealing with is surely more efficient any way you look at it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BinaryLife
Are there more important things? Sure. Curing AIDS and cancer would no doubt be a better spending of our time. But one person's pain doesn't make another's dissapear.
Second excellent point... This alludes to the more fundamental issue of the goal of medicine itself. If that goal is to help give everyone the quality of life they desire, then it is imcumbent upon us to consistently revise and evaluate current methods against newer, hopefully more appealing ones. It's like I said before, theres a good chance that this girl will realize later in life that she is not really cured the way she wants to be... cosmetically modified to make her life a bit easier than it was before, but not happier in her heart of hearts.
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Old 07-18-2007, 09:32 PM   #123
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I have argued this before with a friend. If a woman who feels she is trapped in the wrong body, believing she is truly a man, goes and gets surgery, the person will still in essence be a she with modifications.

I will never say that she is now male when she decides to get the surgery. No amount of mental scrubbing will alter it also. I don't see a way we can make them more comfortable, save for artifically with medication that helps with an inbalance of seritonin.

But my point still stands that I don't feel sorry for them either. Maybe you're right that talking to someone professional will help get deal with stress, though the amount of people that actually feel completely "I'm trapped in the wrong gender/body" are low enough to deem it unnecessary.

Yes, this is INSIGNIFICANT and not a lack of compassion on my part. I suppose I could feel sorry that they hurt mentally though. The answer is to suck it up and deal with it. Humans aren't weak creatures that have to lean on the shoulders of others to help themselves, we all have the ability to fix our situation through bettering ones self.

I think what they have to do is understand who they are, understand their body and learn to cope. If they want the treatment to change their parts, so be it... but it's artifical.
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Old 07-18-2007, 09:50 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Etzell
Indeed. A nice post. On that note, I think it's just best to leave the debate.
Concur.
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Old 07-18-2007, 11:14 PM   #125
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Hi, I'm a black female staffy leprechaun stuck in a white males body, what can you do to help me? I don't want surgery, but I want you to make me a black female staffy leprechaun.
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Old 07-18-2007, 11:35 PM   #126
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...we could give you some LSD?
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Old 07-19-2007, 12:21 AM   #127
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Scuzzy, based on christian theology surely sex change surgery is acceptable.

If an eternal female soul inhabits a transient male shell, then surely it makes more sense to modify the external body not the mind/soul/essence?

[edited]

And vice versa.
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Old 07-19-2007, 12:28 AM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zencheetah
But my point still stands that I don't feel sorry for them either.
Right. To be clear, the world doesn't owe anyone a damn thing when they are born into this world, and I get sick of people blaming their problems on external sources (especially video games...ugh). Everyone knows that your environment shapes who you are to become as a young child, but does that give you the right to do "bad" things without accountability, or whine when shit doesn't go your way? I mean come on... everyone has fucked up things that happen in their life. In my opinion if you don't have the ability as an adult to reflect on the past and use it to grow instead of harvest it for pity, you are a genetically weak human.
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Old 07-19-2007, 02:44 AM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SkynYrd
Right. To be clear, the world doesn't owe anyone a damn thing when they are born into this world, and I get sick of people blaming their problems on external sources (especially video games...ugh). Everyone knows that your environment shapes who you are to become as a young child, but does that give you the right to do "bad" things without accountability, or whine when shit doesn't go your way? I mean come on... everyone has fucked up things that happen in their life. In my opinion if you don't have the ability as an adult to reflect on the past and use it to grow instead of harvest it for pity, you are a genetically weak human.
I agree with you completely.

Take no pity on the person who can't have life as it is, unless under tragic circumstances, these people have no right to complain about anything. They do have the right to purchase anothers labors, as well as supply their own labors to a purchaser... but should never have the gall to complain about insignificant bullshit such as this.

Again, unless tragic circumstances... get over it and deal with it yourself.
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Old 07-19-2007, 03:20 AM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zencheetah
...unless tragic circumstances...
Yeah, I probably should have said something like that in my post. There are a few people I feel sorry for when I look at their past; I think 'wow, they have gone through a LOT of shit... no wonder they turned out that way.' Most of the time, though, its simply unacceptable to act like a prick and write it off as a "rough childhood." Committing cold-blooded murder, for example, involves a thought process in which undoubtedly the person stops, thinks about what they are doing, and goes forward anyway... because they are "insane" and "products of their environment." BULLSHIT
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Old 07-19-2007, 03:34 AM   #131
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When I say compassion I mean exactly that. I'm not asking for pity, just understanding. You don't have to bend over backwards and save them from themselves. It's just a request that you look at them with the realization that they are human beings. They have a heart, eyes and a brain just like you do. They also are self aware like you. So understand at the very least that their pain exists and to dismiss it is wrong. Just say "I know it hurts. I don't really care... but I know that it does."

[off track]People these days have lost touch with each other. I think we should extend some kind of professional courtesy for all of us working the job of life. Most of this is based on the ignorance of customers I've dealt with and their ability to feel entitled to the store because they own one product we sell. The sad thing is, these people look at all other humans the way they look at me. They just think they can get away with it.[/off track]
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Old 07-19-2007, 03:39 AM   #132
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I love Jon Lovitz

I've always thought he was hysterically funny in a VERY cheesy way...but I love him even more now.

Jon Lovitz roughs up Andy Dick

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Laugh Factory owner Jamie Masada, who witnessed the assault, said, "Jon picked Andy up by the head and smashed him into the bar four or five times, and blood started pouring out of his nose." Lovitz told Page Six, "All the comedians are glad I did it because this guy is a [bleep]hole."
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Old 07-19-2007, 03:54 AM   #133
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That's an interesting article, and I now also love John Lovitz, but why did you post that in this thread?
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Old 07-19-2007, 04:05 AM   #134
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lol @ Innoc...


And BinaryLife... I agree with absolutely everything you just said. I think that's all we can ask of each other, understanding. Also, I used to work as a pharmacy technician at the local Rite-Aid... and I know exactly how you feel about customer ignorance. Basically my thought process about the rest of humanity comes and goes in cycles. For a while I'll find a person I'm really inspired by and begin to have positive feelings about mankind and the future etc.... and then some fuckbag will pull out in front of me or something and I'll lapse and realize that literally EVERYONE is a just goddamn asshole looking out for only themselves and be pissed for the next few months until I find another sane person and start all over.
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Old 07-19-2007, 05:34 AM   #135
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aw crap...I hit POST REPLY instead of NEW TOPIC. Wow...rookie move...
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