where i see this game going...

[Elmo]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

In CTF you mean. Meanwhile in AvD land, the spy, demoman, pyro, and soldier do just fine running a train as O.

Yes I do mean more so in CTF.

[reaper18]

Originally Posted by Bridget

Medic...healing grenade...

this is a good idea

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by Dexter

Maybe I'm wrong but the way I read OP was a list of things TF2 has that FF does not. Is copying TF2 a better solution then copying TFC?

..Exactly what I was thinking. Also the phrase "TF2 Holdouts" kind of struck me a bit. TF2 is complete shit. I could care less about the cute graphics and the additional costume pieces and unneeded extra weapons that completely imbalance the game to no end. It's slow, and will never give me the rush that FF does..

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by reaper18

this is a good idea

Isn't that technically tossing healing packs?

[eomoyaff]

Originally Posted by WiFiDi

no, thats not it all im mainly using it as an example. name another teambase game out there that i can use as i havnt played tfc.

just a quick question i may get hate mail for asking this but... what is the difference in a medic and a scout so far i cant find that much they both seem to serve the same rolls the medic doesn't really heal but rather jumps around like the scout. does what scout does.

Lulz at my multi replies. Sorry..

Anyway, here's a breakdown for you:

The Scout's average bhop speed is within the 600 range on flat surface, making him the fastest. When you give him the ability to conc, shark, trimp, or slide, it makes him the ideal class for moving the flag, making it difficult for most defenses to hold. But for instance. If you take Openfire, give it 2 soldiers an engi and a demo, attempting to move that flag with just as scout is pretty damn hard (Except if your Sabbath,). That's where the medic normally would come into the picture.

The Medic has multiple abilities to move around the map quicker then other support classes, taking less amount of damage as he moves. He has a super nail gun which takes down sentry guns quick, when mixed with the frag grenade. And he can put out a demo rather easily, allowing the scout to get in and out without worry of pipes detonation. There have been MANY situations however that the scout had the flag and died shortly after due to various reasons - - A) Would have survived if the scout had not taken fall damage in the beginning, or B) the scout dies on the way out of the enemy base. This is where the medic would also be effective. Take the map Monkey for instance. A scout concs from one side of the map to the other, he lands and normally takes damage. When a medic does this, he is able to drop health packs on the floor as he lands, so for when the scout comes in he can land on the packs and restore his hp. He can also toss packs on the ground at the location in which the scout is leaving enemy base, so his chance of survival is greater on the way out (in which the medic can also be used as interference.) Other things the medic can do is infect so that a player will die over time, making it easier once again for flag movement. So the medic's role is pretty powerful overall. He may carry some of the scouts characteristics, but his ability to support the offensive class is far greater then any other.

Btw, this is mainly from a pickup point of view. In public games, you'll rarely find a medic that plays a support role and instead tries to rush the flag which fails more then it does succeed from what I've seen.

Hope that helps.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by eomoyaff

Isn't that technically tossing healing packs?

A healing nade would require no effort by the person being healed. With the medpacks, a player has to run over them for them to be used.

[angrypyro]

Originally Posted by Iggy

A healing nade would require no effort by the person being healed. With the medpacks, a player has to run over them for them to be used.

So would there be both healing grenades and medkits? Also might be confusing at first to new players since most of the time you try and avoid grenades. That would leave only the scout as an effective offense in CTF then.

[Crazycarl]

I agree with Bridget's wall o' text 70%.

I'm amazed by the lack of imagination I see in this community. There are so many mechanics in this game that are there solely because they were in TFC, and QWTF before that, and Quake before that, and any time we question why they are there, somebody pipes up and defends that feature as integral to the depth of the game. The amount of new stuff we can consider to add depth is limitless, but I only see new ideas coming from a handful of people.

As a non-profit game, our strength should be freedom to innovate and take risks, but we don't even have that because we are mired in the traditions of this game.

I don't give a shit whether an idea was used in TF2 as long as it's a good idea. Valve employs a lot of smart game designers who think up ideas and test them constantly. What better people to steal ideas from?

[KubeDawg]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

I don't give a shit whether an idea was used in TF2 as long as it's a good idea. Valve employs a lot of smart game designers who think up ideas and test them constantly. What better people to steal ideas from?

Agreed. They even have some pretty stellar design concepts for new weapons and such that the community can participate in designing. So not only do they have their own paid for imaginations, but the community's as well.

I'd like to see some radical ideas for FF, but put into practical use. I think with every new idea, it needs to be viewed with a fine tooth comb because there are so many aspects of gameplay one change could affect. You have to worry about it breaking something in the process.

The biggest changes I think need to happen would be to the sniper class, pyro, and medic. Sniper is pretty much useless as it is right now, and I don't think a new grenade would be enough. It's gotta be a complete overhaul for the class, and it'd probably be a lot easier for the devs to just get rid of the sniper altogether, but to me, that's just taking the easy way out. I'd rather keep the sniper class and just continue to upgrade him until we've got something that works. I think the pyro is out-of-date, he needs a bigger role in the game. The level 1/2/3 burns needs to be revisited. Finally, the medic needs a new way to heal people, by way of his medkit. I think a needler gun concept was suggested at some point that would heal teammates but hurt enemies.

And it's not just the classes that need some adjusting, but the design of those classes. Remember how TFC had the option to choose from the old models or the new ones? Imagine if we had a choice in the menu to do something like that, something just as easy as changing your spray. There are a slew of options on the menu that I think could make it more user friendly as well as customizable. TFC to me was all about customizing things from weapon models to map textures to adding some nike's for my scout class.

The main problem is it's a free game, no one is getting paid to do this work. It'd be cool if we could pay someone to do work, but I doubt that's possible. Who created the original models for FF? Is that person still around somewhere on the interwebz? Maybe contact that person to see if they'd be available to do some more modeling/animating, or if not, point us in the direction of people who might be interested in that type of work?

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by angrypyro

So would there be both healing grenades and medkits? Also might be confusing at first to new players since most of the time you try and avoid grenades. That would leave only the scout as an effective offense in CTF then.

I did not even imply such a thing. I mearly stated the difference between the two.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

I agree with Bridget's wall o' text 70%.

I'm amazed by the lack of imagination I see in this community. There are so many mechanics in this game that are there solely because they were in TFC, and QWTF before that, and Quake before that, and any time we question why they are there, somebody pipes up and defends that feature as integral to the depth of the game. The amount of new stuff we can consider to add depth is limitless, but I only see new ideas coming from a handful of people.

As a non-profit game, our strength should be freedom to innovate and take risks, but we don't even have that because we are mired in the traditions of this game.

I don't give a shit whether an idea was used in TF2 as long as it's a good idea. Valve employs a lot of smart game designers who think up ideas and test them constantly. What better people to steal ideas from?

You have to have SOME holdovers, or it's not a Fortess game. Consider the new "Battlestar Galactica" versus the original. The only thing REALLY kept, were the names of the people/ships/enemies/etc..... the entire origin, storylines, and plots were changed. Dedicated fans(such as myself) to the original were aphauled by the changes. Yes, it grabbed in new fans, but they changed so much of the concept that they could(and should) have named it something else. Fortress Forever is a fortress game. Period. It has to contain the elements that made its predecessors great, or it will lose it's core base of players. Yes, the game should evolve, and it should contain improvements over the previous games. Right now, it does so in the form of the jump pad, spy cloak, and multi-level burns for the pyro. Of course there is room for improvement... there always will be. Even TFC could be improved upon. TF2, in my opinion, went in the wrong direction. Yes, it made valvE alot of money, but to me, it's not a true Fortress game. It uses the name and general idea of each class, and that's about it. They concentrate on command point maps. Not CTF, not AvD, and I've yet to see an escape or skills based map for it. I'm not saying it's not a fun game for some people, but it's not a Fortress game.

We DO need people in the community to suggest ideas instead of contantly bitching about what is(yeah, Bridget....you!) It's the only way that this game will improve. I watched Dodgeball:Source die out because of a lack of people with mapping skills and ideas. It's a fun game, but you need more than 2 people playing it.

[WiFiDi]

another idea

wall jumps has anyone thought of this ive seen games where you have to bunny hop or you dont move have wall jumps but i think walljumps could be very benefical to this game.

[chilledsanity]

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

I agree with Bridget's wall o' text 70%.

I'm amazed by the lack of imagination I see in this community. There are so many mechanics in this game that are there solely because they were in TFC, and QWTF before that, and Quake before that, and any time we question why they are there, somebody pipes up and defends that feature as integral to the depth of the game.

I think the problem is FF is straddling two sides of gameplay philosophy and not doing a very good job of it. On one hand, you have people who want it to be TFC exactly, with better graphics, so any change to it will be upsetting. On the other hand, you have people who want it to evolve into its own thing entirely. Not necessarily a NeoTFC, but same ballpark. As many new changes that work.

I personally would be fine with either formula, so long as it was balanced and fun. TFC was balanced and fun. A LOT of changes could be introduced that could make FF balanced and fun again. What's happening now is minor radical changes that fuck up balance, which make it less fun for the long haul (even if they are novel at the time). I think you guys need to really commit to one strategy:

1. Undo most of the changes since 2.0 and make FF turn back to be as much like TFC as possible to try and win back players.

OR

2. Pull at all the stops, implement a shit TON of changes, not worrying about who you'll piss off. Have it be interesting, have a lot of depth, and make an attempt at balancing it. You'll lose some old fanbase, but if you make it different enough, you might gain more players (and keep them).

If it continues the way it has been, I think it's going to end up as a one-size-fits-no-one situation.

Originally Posted by Crazycarl

The amount of new stuff we can consider to add depth is limitless, but I only see new ideas coming from a handful of people.

I've seen maybe a hundred interesting and promising ideas emerge and not one of them see the light of day. Why do they fail? Past environment discouraged input? Groupthink blocks them from being implemented? People getting shouted down? Too much work to develop? The people proposing them leave? Nobody wants to change anything? Something else?

While not discounting the other reasons as possibilities, in my opinion, so many changes need to be made and the odds of any one idea ever going anywhere are so small, that things just kind of stagnate. If big changes aren't made one way or the other, I think that's all the mod is going to do, stagnate.

Originally Posted by CrazyCarl

I don't give a shit whether an idea was used in TF2 as long as it's a good idea. Valve employs a lot of smart game designers who think up ideas and test them constantly. What better people to steal ideas from?

I agree. For example think Valve did a great job on redesigning the medic (minus the ubercharge) and the engineer. Health/armor is simplified, medics actually heal, sentries tear people to shreds, are slow to go up, and require strategy to take out. Respawn waits, gimped movement, and no grenades ruin the game for me, but it doesn't mean it's 100% turd with nothing to take from it.

[Dexter]

Originally Posted by WiFiDi

another idea

wall jumps has anyone thought of this ive seen games where you have to bunny hop or you dont move have wall jumps but i think walljumps could be very benefical to this game.

no

[moosh]

Originally Posted by WiFiDi

another idea

wall jumps has anyone thought of this ive seen games where you have to bunny hop or you dont move have wall jumps but i think walljumps could be very benefical to this game.

PUNCTUATION

Dear god please learn this.

[Elmo]

Wall jumps have been 'considered' before - right now I don't think they'll have a place.

There's enough messed up crap in this game without adding another for now

[Bridget]

Wall jumps would be cool. Also, a dash option to quickly get up to speed a la Warsow.

[Crazycarl]

Originally Posted by chilledsanity

I've seen maybe a hundred interesting and promising ideas emerge and not one of them see the light of day. Why do they fail? Past environment discouraged input? Groupthink blocks them from being implemented? People getting shouted down? Too much work to develop? The people proposing them leave? Nobody wants to change anything? Something else?

All of these. Somebody in the dev team has to champion the idea, get the others to buy into it, and then implement it. Some are rejected after discussion. Some get tested and rejected and you never hear about it.

While not discounting the other reasons as possibilities, in my opinion, so many changes need to be made and the odds of any one idea ever going anywhere are so small, that things just kind of stagnate. If big changes aren't made one way or the other, I think that's all the mod is going to do, stagnate.

We are capable of making big changes, but only if they fit into the the game we have. We can transform one class, or one game type, but transforming the entire game at once seems to be beyond us.

[Dexter]

Originally Posted by Bridget

Wall jumps would be cool. Also, a dash option to quickly get up to speed a la Warsow.

no. no. The game is apparently already too fast guyz. Warsow is experiencing the same thing currently (game movement got too fast)

[WiFiDi]

Originally Posted by Dexter

no. no. The game is apparently already too fast guyz. Warsow is experiencing the same thing currently (game movement got too fast)

eh its fast but why is this a problem is it to fast to control or somthing.

also no speed boost its not nessary. dont like the idea for a speed boost, like wall jump im all for that.