The Definition Of Balanced - Page 2

o_nezumi · 07-05-2006, 11:00 PM

Defrag has a good point, that 2fort and dust are popular because they're fast direct and easy to learn (And came with the game, I might add)

Although de_dust is NOT balanced. A good CT team can totally shut down the map. Unlike 2fort it's never played in matches.

o_imbrifer · 07-06-2006, 02:44 AM

Balance is generally more tricky when it comes to CP or AD maps. Except if they are done like CZ2. This is probably one reason why people shy away from making non mirror-image map styles - you may have to rework an entire section of the map after playtesting if it isn't balanced enough that it's fun.

I'd like to make a CP map that is a futuristic, fortress-y city, with one CP up high in a building, another in the middle of a street, a third on a tram that's moving around town and one in sewers or something, but balancing such a map would be a major pain - so it's now at the bottom of my 'to-do' list.

o_nezumi · 07-06-2006, 06:34 AM

People could do things the CS/avd way, where one side plays Ts/offence for a while then the teams switch, even with a CTF map.

The benefit of TFC/FF is that you can build team-switching into the map, like avanti. You could do this on any type of map, really. You could even have a non-mirrored CTF map where the teams switch every so often. That might get a little awkward, but having your own unique style of map is a lot easier if you don't have to guarantee perfect balance between teams.

o_[d2f]lucus{-qc-} · 07-06-2006, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Applepolisher

Maps by no means have to be good to be popular. Think 2fort.

2fort is very unbalanced towards D, but check all the servers. 2fort is by far the most played TFC map.

What could possibly be the reason everybody loves this map? It's very unimaginative. It's unbalanced as hell. Maybe what the mainstream crowd wants is 2fort clones and the such anyway?

I am surprise to see that from you... You should know why... The map has alot of close area that's the only reason why. So when they spam it will mostly hit you because you can't go very far. but if you take map like Well there is only 2 entrances: Water & main entrance and if you play this map with 30 players on, damn you will have a hard time to get into the enemy base. I think that is more a player issue then a map desing issue... Just have to know where the choke point are.

o_darknight · 07-06-2006, 03:39 PM

Dust is balanced and if anything, T sided, as long as the terrorists can get a good enough spawn to rush B1 fast enough, then leaving a sweeper = win.

It's played so much because it's simple, small and easy to learn. The fact that it's boring as hell to 90% of seasoned/clanned players seems irrelevant to how popular the game is on pubs.

o_dark applepolisher · 07-07-2006, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imbrifer

Balance is generally more tricky when it comes to CP or AD maps.

Armor/nade tweaking is always the solution to those maps; and very generally, it works!

o_2d-chris · 07-08-2006, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darknight

Dust is balanced and if anything, T sided, as long as the terrorists can get a good enough spawn to rush B1 fast enough, then leaving a sweeper = win.

It's played so much because it's simple, small and easy to learn. The fact that it's boring as hell to 90% of seasoned/clanned players seems irrelevant to how popular the game is on pubs.

it seems you have not really played dust in an even clan match, CT's should always win with balanced teams. Dust as a map is not balanced in terms of cs gameplay, hence it is not a popular clan map.

Saying that the most unbalanced map (de_aztec) is one of the most popular

but not when it comes so serious clan games.

It is obvious to me good balanced gameplay and how popular a map is are not so obviously connected, so many factors such as lighting and textureing people overlook but they play a massive roll in the maps popularity. If level design was easy everyone would be good at it, experiance teaches you what works and what doesnt, there really isnt a guide.

Defrag · 07-08-2006, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Although de_dust is NOT balanced. A good CT team can totally shut down the map. Unlike 2fort it's never played in matches.

I was speaking on pub terms. If you can get a couple of guys to rush left as T you can win some rounds, but of course that's more easily said than done

o_nezumi · 07-09-2006, 12:22 AM

But there's no doubt that dust is popular on pubs because, like defrag said, it's simple and easy to learn.

...and a lot more boring than 2fort

o_addicted to morphine · 07-09-2006, 06:03 AM

I thought I would speak up and echo what's already been said about if a map is designed in such a way that the O cap time after time after time does nothing but emasculate the defense. The inverse is also true.

Additionally, a balanced map, in my opinion, is fun to play with every class, and in any role. I mean, that's the goal, and not one that's often attained, but some maps come damn close. If you can press the random class button and still have a good time, I say that's a balanced map.

o_mikequist · 07-09-2006, 06:51 AM

Then I don't think any map is balanced because I can't remember the last time I had fun playing pyro

o_addicted to morphine · 07-09-2006, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeQuist

Then I don't think any map is balanced because I can't remember the last time I had fun playing pyro

In that case, the portion of the TFC community that enjoys playing as the pyro, i.e. Jamal, has to be able to enjoy your map too.

o_nezumi · 07-09-2006, 10:28 AM

I was making a map, ff_harbor, where it occured to me that every class could be usefull, to an extent (in my head anyway). The gametype was essentially 2-way hunted. There was a VIP and his team of bodyguards fighting another VIP and their team of bodyguards. The map was a big asymmetrical city, and the 2 teams spawned in a random location every round so you didn't neccesarily know where your enemies were coming from. All the regular off/def classes would be usefull in their normal roles trying to defend/kill one vip, but the VIP himself would be usefull if he was a bunch of different classes. He could be really hard to kill as a VIP, really hard to catch as a medic/scout/pyro, really impossible to find as a spy, and so on.

I was hoping that there were enough different strategies (hiding, running, locking down def, going offensive, etc) to make all the classes usefull to some member of the team at some point.

o_dark applepolisher · 07-09-2006, 05:07 PM

Make the thread for that map!

o_nezumi · 07-09-2006, 09:00 PM

Oops, it's here.
http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...ead.php?t=1163

It's kinda old now. I've shelved the map and I'm going to completely redo the layout. The old one had a serious lack of vis-blocking and there are some other more important things to do first. It's like the best idea I've ever had though so I'm going to finish it someday for sure. But this is all a little OT...

07-09-2006, 12:22 AM	#29
o_nezumi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Peoples Republic of Harmfull Free Radicals Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	But there's no doubt that dust is popular on pubs because, like defrag said, it's simple and easy to learn. ...and a lot more boring than 2fort Last edited by o_nezumi; 07-09-2006 at 10:22 AM.

07-09-2006, 06:03 AM	#30
o_addicted to morphine Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: East Coast, USA Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I thought I would speak up and echo what's already been said about if a map is designed in such a way that the O cap time after time after time does nothing but emasculate the defense. The inverse is also true. Additionally, a balanced map, in my opinion, is fun to play with every class, and in any role. I mean, that's the goal, and not one that's often attained, but some maps come damn close. If you can press the random class button and still have a good time, I say that's a balanced map. Last edited by o_addicted to morphine; 07-09-2006 at 06:18 AM.

07-05-2006, 11:00 PM	#21
o_nezumi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Peoples Republic of Harmfull Free Radicals Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Defrag has a good point, that 2fort and dust are popular because they're fast direct and easy to learn (And came with the game, I might add) Although de_dust is NOT balanced. A good CT team can totally shut down the map. Unlike 2fort it's never played in matches.

07-06-2006, 02:44 AM	#22
o_imbrifer Join Date: May 2005 Location: Changes every few months Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Balance is generally more tricky when it comes to CP or AD maps. Except if they are done like CZ2. This is probably one reason why people shy away from making non mirror-image map styles - you may have to rework an entire section of the map after playtesting if it isn't balanced enough that it's fun. I'd like to make a CP map that is a futuristic, fortress-y city, with one CP up high in a building, another in the middle of a street, a third on a tram that's moving around town and one in sewers or something, but balancing such a map would be a major pain - so it's now at the bottom of my 'to-do' list.

07-06-2006, 06:34 AM	#23
o_nezumi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Peoples Republic of Harmfull Free Radicals Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	People could do things the CS/avd way, where one side plays Ts/offence for a while then the teams switch, even with a CTF map. The benefit of TFC/FF is that you can build team-switching into the map, like avanti. You could do this on any type of map, really. You could even have a non-mirrored CTF map where the teams switch every so often. That might get a little awkward, but having your own unique style of map is a lot easier if you don't have to guarantee perfect balance between teams.

07-06-2006, 03:39 PM	#25
o_darknight Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Yorkshire Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Dust is balanced and if anything, T sided, as long as the terrorists can get a good enough spawn to rush B1 fast enough, then leaving a sweeper = win. It's played so much because it's simple, small and easy to learn. The fact that it's boring as hell to 90% of seasoned/clanned players seems irrelevant to how popular the game is on pubs.

07-09-2006, 06:51 AM	#31
o_mikequist Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Tampa Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Then I don't think any map is balanced because I can't remember the last time I had fun playing pyro

07-09-2006, 10:28 AM	#33
o_nezumi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Peoples Republic of Harmfull Free Radicals Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I was making a map, ff_harbor, where it occured to me that every class could be usefull, to an extent (in my head anyway). The gametype was essentially 2-way hunted. There was a VIP and his team of bodyguards fighting another VIP and their team of bodyguards. The map was a big asymmetrical city, and the 2 teams spawned in a random location every round so you didn't neccesarily know where your enemies were coming from. All the regular off/def classes would be usefull in their normal roles trying to defend/kill one vip, but the VIP himself would be usefull if he was a bunch of different classes. He could be really hard to kill as a VIP, really hard to catch as a medic/scout/pyro, really impossible to find as a spy, and so on. I was hoping that there were enough different strategies (hiding, running, locking down def, going offensive, etc) to make all the classes usefull to some member of the team at some point.

07-09-2006, 05:07 PM	#34
o_dark applepolisher Join Date: May 2006 Location: Idaho Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Make the thread for that map!

07-09-2006, 09:00 PM	#35
o_nezumi Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: The Peoples Republic of Harmfull Free Radicals Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Oops, it's here. http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...ead.php?t=1163 It's kinda old now. I've shelved the map and I'm going to completely redo the layout. The old one had a serious lack of vis-blocking and there are some other more important things to do first. It's like the best idea I've ever had though so I'm going to finish it someday for sure. But this is all a little OT...

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