Fortress Forever

Go Back   Fortress Forever > Community > General Discussion

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-26-2010, 06:57 PM   #521
be_
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by mervaka View Post

i'll bring another proposition i made out from devworld into the open here: what if all players' view kicked by say, ~10 degrees when they received damage? shotguns could be fired across the map at snipers, and those players would actively affect the sniper's ability to shoot him. do the trigonometry, and tell me what you think
I can't visualize it well enough, but I imagine that death match/fighting as a whole would change for everyone then. Might be too big a change to accommodate one class; but would have to see it. Try it!

Cloaking ability would have been the more realistic choice for sniper because they hide and use camoflauge. Radio tag reminds me more of a spy movie with their tracking devices :P If they were switched, it'd make more sense, but that would be too overpowering for the sniper IMO and probably make even more players frustrated when they are constantly killed but cannot find the guy.
be_ is offline  


Old 02-26-2010, 07:48 PM   #522
GenghisTron
AKA LittleAndroidMan
D&A Member
Beta Tester
 
GenghisTron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Dystopia
Class/Position: Demo/Medic
Gametype: CTF
Affiliations: [TALOS] [SR]
Posts Rated Helpful 11 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwarsbane View Post
Guess you didn't see the....


So I guess you "misrepresented" that I wasn't telling the truth.

How about next time you just say "you forgot about this, how would you counter it" you'll look less like an jerk.


I've already countered the overpowered argument. The sniper can kill with one shot from a distance. The spy can kill with one stab while cloaked.

Counter to the sniper killing you long distance with one shot is to...

Learn where the sniper is. (look around, see if you see anything)

Learn to trick the sniper. (this might include tossing stuff out)

Learn to ask your team for help. (ask someone to step outside, ask someone to toss a gas grenade out, ask someone who is already outside to go distract the sniper)

Learn to distract the sniper. (put down some pipes, then wait, toss a bag out, when you hear the bullet hit run, or step out quick, then back in and if you heard a bullet hit run back out)

Learn to use items you have on you to get out of the area. (grenade/rocket/pipe jump out of the spawn or area you are in that the sniper is looking at. Toss out a gas grenade run through it. Build a jump pad.

Learn to anticipate when the sniper is going to fire. (it might be a hit scan weapon, but guess what, it does take some reaction time for the sniper to react. Every sniper is different and will have a slightly different reaction time)


Notice a theme there, learning is what will help people counter the sniper. It will help you counter EVERY class. But there will always be people who are damn good when they use a specific class. If you want the sniper class to be remove/nerfed just because someone is damn good at it, then you might as well remove all the classes because there will always be someone who is damn good at a class and who will scare off noobs and/or make it not fun for some.


And the sniper is not out of place, again as far as I know, the sniper has been part of TF games since there have been Team Fortress games. And seeing as how this game is based off of TFC and TFC has a sniper, then that means the sniper is NOT out of place.



So what other "strong" arguments do you think I "lied by omission" about? (btw I consider all these to be silly/weak arguments to remove/nerf the sniper)
Nah, I saw that part, but it was funny because by pure coincidence all the really strong points against a sniper in this thread, were magically left out of your post. For example, the range of effectiveness of a sniper vs. EVERY OTHER CLASS. Squeek (Correct me if I'm wrong) even made a nice little graph showing how the sniper was clearly broken in this regard. No, instead you addressed points that could easily be shotdown by saying 'YEA WELL, THE OTHER CLASSES ARE LIKE THAT TOO*'

*kinda

You've debated the arguments that I'm talking about--probably multiple times. I was just expounding the extreme irony of the fact that every strong argument against the sniper was magically missing from your post, when in fact, you've already debated them. So ignorance of these issues isn't an excuse.

Spare me your explanations, I don't care--anyone with a shred intellectual honesty and a sense of objectivity would see the sniper doesn't work in a game that's based around mid-to-close range DM, where the objective is (most of the time) to capture the flag. Your only defense of the sniper is apologetic, you sub-conciously realize that the sniper is broken, that's why all of your 'advice' was to avoid the sniper, using varying methods, rather than making the sniper 'fit' into the game, and make him compatible. By your own intellectual dishonesty, you sub-conciously told us you know the sniper is broken, but because you're so attached to it's crusty anus, you're instead making excuses that the snipers opponent is at fault. It's the other way around, the sniper doesn't interact with his opponents.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SSCUJO View Post
thats an odd way of putting it, if i was a medic and met exo as soli in a hallway, i would say that the only way i would win is if exo does something wrong. sure i could fight back. it would be as effective as a medic fighting a sniper from the battlements of 2fort, but sure i could fight back... does that mean the solider needs to be looked at? because it dominates a new player?

you have to ask, if you nerf the sniper so that a great sniper vs a noob is a fair fight then what happens when that great sniper meets an exo?
That's funny, because, medics have shotguns and grenades, and they DM up close. A sniper versus a medic on opposite battlements is probably the most laughable comparison I've seen in my entire life. You're just being a stubborn baby saying the most irrational thing you can because people have proven that the only class you can actually play is broken. You also have to realize that medics aren't always alone, a lot of the time medics travel together and take down soldiers in their way, and heal each other when they take damage. So yet again, your comparison falls flat on it's face.
__________________

Last edited by GenghisTron; 02-26-2010 at 07:50 PM.
GenghisTron is offline  


Old 02-26-2010, 08:33 PM   #523
SSCUJO
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
must of hit a nerve haha, the fact that your countering our arguments with anger and insults tells me your really have nothing to say against our points. so i'll just sit and wait until you finsh your tantrum and have something intelligent to say.
SSCUJO is offline  


Old 02-26-2010, 08:40 PM   #524
GenghisTron
AKA LittleAndroidMan
D&A Member
Beta Tester
 
GenghisTron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Dystopia
Class/Position: Demo/Medic
Gametype: CTF
Affiliations: [TALOS] [SR]
Posts Rated Helpful 11 Times
Nah, the only nerve you hit was 'this guy is retarded, how many times does this shit have to be repeated for him to actually understand it'. As mervaka said, you guys (snipers) are like the bankers and their bonuses. You. Just. Don't. Get. It.

Also, 4 out of the 5 sentences directed towards you, contained substantive arguments. The fact that you ignored everything else I said, because I called you a 'cry baby', is further proof, that you are, in fact, a cry baby. Face it, you're wrong.
__________________
GenghisTron is offline  


Old 02-26-2010, 09:00 PM   #525
Bridget
Banned
 
Bridget's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Class/Position: Soldier
Gametype: AVD
Affiliations: TALOS
Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSCUJO View Post
must of hit a nerve haha, the fact that your countering our arguments with anger and insults tells me your really have nothing to say against our points. so i'll just sit and wait until you finsh your tantrum and have something intelligent to say.
GenghisTron didn't ad-hominem. He made his argument and called you a moron on the side. If you don't want to address his actual argument and instead choose to criticize the way he presents actual arguments, then you would be the one performing an ad-hominem attack.

/tophat, monocle, cigar, scotch
Bridget is offline  


Old 02-26-2010, 09:05 PM   #526
mervaka
A Very Sound Guy!
Fortress Forever Staff
 
mervaka's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UK
Posts Rated Helpful 15 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by SSCUJO View Post
i think thats a great idea, hell i even like the idea of radio/cripple being a different gun from the high dmg rifle.
that was the original design back in the beta days. we decided they're better as one rifle rather than two. it's a net loss if they're separate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SSCUJO View Post
i don't like the idea of removing distance (the only thing the sniper has going for it) or removing the class completely.
if we can possibly help it, we'd like to keep sniper in. we're back on the drawing board at the moment looking for ways in which we can strike a compromise. the forementioned idea is just one of them. a decisive change on the sniper probably won't be made for a while yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SSCUJO View Post
also the avoidence argument i think is really almost only found on arddvark in which the goal and the sniper are not at the same location, if you think 2fort, the enemy's are no longer avoiding the sniper but rather fighting to get into position to kill the sniper, which is what any class has to do to kill any class anyway.
i think everyone agrees aardvark is notorious for snipers, due to map design. my issue with 2fort specifically is that there isn't really a feasible alternative route at present. Valve tended to this problem in TF2 by putting a canopy over the bridge and breaking upo the midmap somewhat. perhaps something similar could be done for ff_2fort

Quote:
Originally Posted by xks View Post
The view kick idea will render the sniper almost completely useless unless you also give him the cloaking abilities of a spy.
tables have turned eh? at least the sniper doesn't gib in one hit. i think impediment of aim is the only way anyone's going to be able to interact back with the sniper. remember they also have to actually hit them.
mervaka is offline  


Old 02-26-2010, 09:54 PM   #527
Gwarsbane
Slayer of humans
D&A Member
 
Gwarsbane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Mostly on earth though in some alt dimensions
Class/Position: I'm an Offensive Defensive person
Gametype: Fortress Forever
Affiliations: I'm a merc, only thing that talks is money
Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by squeek. View Post
All of those "counters" are not dependent on the player's actions. They are all dependent on the sniper's. They only work if the sniper does something wrong. The player is not necessarily doing anything right; even if he does all of those things perfectly, he can still lose.
Ya of course making yourself quick enough to jump in and out, to grenade jump to where you want, ask for help and other things like that are all dependent on the other person on the other team who is a sniper.

They are of course dependent on your skill. If you don't have the skill to do any of those things then of course no matter what the skill level of the sniper it could be hard to get across the map and kill them or get to the flag.

Thats where the learning comes in. You learn new ways to get out of your base. You learn new ways to get across the map. You learn new ways to go after the sniper/flag.

There is no such thing as a perfect sniper, hell even an aimbot with wall hacks is not perfect.

Everything I suggested there was ways to counter the snipers (and in general other classes). People just have to learn how to do them. They are not 100% perfect, nothing is. But even if its 1 out of 10 chances that you get out, get across the map and directly attack the sniper then great.

But there are also other things you can do. Every class has weapons that can be fired and hit the other side of the map. Unless the sniper is hurt most are not instant kills, but they are distracting to the sniper.


Quote:
Originally Posted by squeek. View Post
Here's something you seemed to have missed: http://forums.fortress-forever.com/s...&postcount=446
Ok so what am I trying to counter here. Am I trying to counter the fact that snipers kill at a distance? I already countered that with learn to dodge. Learn to use everything you can get get out of the base move across the map and get to the sniper. Its easy enough to do, it might take a few deaths and even once you figure something out its not going to be 100% successful and its not going to fail 100% of the time either. Just like a sniper is not going to be 100% successful all the time or fail 100% all the time.


And yes you can have both styles of combat in the same game. I prefer close up and personal attacks with all the weapons I have and that includes high explosives, others prefer medium range attacks, and others prefer long range attacks. But I can do all 3 with virtually any class. Some are just more effective then others.

I have tranqed killed from across a map.
I have killed with a nail gun from across a map.
I have killed with a rocket from across a map.
I have killed with a shot gun from across a map.
I have killed with a mini gun from across a map.
I have killed with the pyro launcher from across a map.
I have killed with a rail gun from across a map.

They haven't been instant kills (except for the rail gun, I have gotten many instant kills with that), which is what some seem to be upset about. But they were still kills though someone of them were kind of instant kills due to the person being low in heath. And yes many of those killed were snipers.

So big deal that a sniper can instant kill from across the map. The spy can instant kill from close up without the person having a chance to fight back. A soldier can almost instant kill with his rockets though he can keep you from fighting back by keeping you in the air.

All three classes take skill to do this consistently.




Quote:
Originally Posted by GenghisTron View Post
Nah, I saw that part, but it was funny because by pure coincidence all the really strong points against a sniper in this thread, were magically left out of your post. For example, the range of effectiveness of a sniper vs. EVERY OTHER CLASS. Squeek (Correct me if I'm wrong) even made a nice little graph showing how the sniper was clearly broken in this regard. No, instead you addressed points that could easily be shotdown by saying 'YEA WELL, THE OTHER CLASSES ARE LIKE THAT TOO*'

*kinda
I actually covered about the range problem specifically in another post, but yes, I forgot to counter it specifically, though everything I suggested could be used to counter it and I'm not going to bother to post about them again you can just read up.

Any class can kill at a distance, some can even instant kill (as in it hits and you're dead). This seems to be the main thing people are crying about. Guess what it happens, deal with it by getting better and learn to dodge because yes, even a sniper can be dodged, I know I do it all the time, hell I even dance in front of them taunting them as they miss time after time. And this is out in the open, or in a long narrow tunnel. Snipers are not perfect. Sometimes they kill me, sometimes I kill them, sometimes we kill each other, sometimes we both live. This is against both good and bad snipers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GenghisTron View Post
You've debated the arguments that I'm talking about--probably multiple times. I was just expounding the extreme irony of the fact that every strong argument against the sniper was magically missing from your post, when in fact, you've already debated them. So ignorance of these issues isn't an excuse.
Oh boo freakin hoo, I missed a few excuses people are using that have been posted through out 23 or 24 pages (at the time). Oh boo freakin hoo I didn't go through every single page with 20 posts on each one and read every single post to make sure I didn't miss anything.

And to you it might be a "strong" argument against the sniper but to me it was just another weak excuse that people are using to try to get rid of the sniper because they suck against the snipers (which some have admitted to in this and/or other thread that they can't even get out of the spawn because of snipers).

There have been so many excuses that I lost track of them all. Boo freakin hoo.

You get all upset over the ones I supposedly missed, trying to make it seem like I did it on purpose yet with virtually the same breathe you say that I already debated them. I guess I'm damned if I do damned if I don't.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GenghisTron View Post
Spare me your explanations, I don't care--anyone with a shred intellectual honesty and a sense of objectivity would see the sniper doesn't work in a game that's based around mid-to-close range DM, where the objective is (most of the time) to capture the flag. Your only defense of the sniper is apologetic, you sub-conciously realize that the sniper is broken, that's why all of your 'advice' was to avoid the sniper, using varying methods, rather than making the sniper 'fit' into the game, and make him compatible. By your own intellectual dishonesty, you sub-conciously told us you know the sniper is broken, but because you're so attached to it's crusty anus, you're instead making excuses that the snipers opponent is at fault. It's the other way around, the sniper doesn't interact with his opponents.
Interesting, you don't bother to counter any of my counters, you try to make it look like I purposely left stuff out because I couldn't counter it, then say that I already answered them. And then you start insulting me.

Again I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.

And no I don't believe the sniper is broken, and no all my advice is not to avoid snipers, all my advice was to help people avoid getting shot by a sniper. It was suggestions to help them get out of a spawn or across the yard to get to the sniper or get to the enemy base.

I can get out of my spawn and take on a sniper. I might get killed a few times, big deal, I just figure out a way to get out. Then I go kill the sniper, or I go distract the sniper, or go for his base to get the flag and kill others.


Quote:
Originally Posted by GenghisTron View Post
That's funny, because, medics have shotguns and grenades, and they DM up close. A sniper versus a medic on opposite battlements is probably the most laughable comparison I've seen in my entire life. You're just being a stubborn baby saying the most irrational thing you can because people have proven that the only class you can actually play is broken. You also have to realize that medics aren't always alone, a lot of the time medics travel together and take down soldiers in their way, and heal each other when they take damage. So yet again, your comparison falls flat on it's face.
I've killed a sniper across the map as a medic, and it wasn't because I infected him before hand and ran. I shot and killed with a shot gun, I shot and killed with a nail gun. All the while being shot at by the sniper. I can't do this all the time but I have, just like a sniper can't kill me all the time, but they do kill me. (and no that doesn't mean that I am nearly impossible to kill so don't bother trying to suggest more into that then there is).







Now no doubt I have missed something, and no doubt I will be accused of purposely leaving it off.

Guess what I'm human, I also have a life outside of these forums and don't have the time or the interest to look through every single post, and try to decipher hidden meanings in posts or reread every freakin post of a 27 page thread. 524posts are a little much to go through, and unlike some, I don't have a picture perfect memory to remember every one of them.


Now as you have said, I have already countered all the points and if we keep going like this we're just going to keep going around and round and round, and I will no doubt end up countering all the points all again.


To the devs.

If you take out the sniper or nerf it badly you're going to loose more players then you gain. And it WILL NOT ONLY BE PEOPLE WHO ONLY PLAY SNIPERS who will leave. It will also be people like me that enjoy playing against good snipers.

How about this, you don't want to play against snipers then go play on a server that don't allow them. You don't want snipers in clan/pickup/whatever play then include an easy way that server admins can exclude snipers.
Gwarsbane is offline  


Old 02-26-2010, 10:30 PM   #528
mervaka
A Very Sound Guy!
Fortress Forever Staff
 
mervaka's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UK
Posts Rated Helpful 15 Times
you really didn't read my post then.
mervaka is offline  


Old 02-26-2010, 11:24 PM   #529
Elmo
Gets tickled by FF
Fortress Forever Staff
 
Elmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: UK
Class/Position: Med Solly HW
Gametype: Any/CTF
Posts Rated Helpful 41 Times
as with most posts it seems
__________________
Support FF:
Done: ff_monkey
Done: ff_bases
Done: ff_warpath
Forever Doing: ff_medieval (beta#99999999)
Elmo is offline  


Old 02-27-2010, 12:02 AM   #530
Jimyd
[]< ,,\/_ ^_~ _\/,, >[]
 
Jimyd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
Ya I know am going to get flamed for this but...

Step Your Game Up Bitch!?

(Yes that is the equivalent I use for L2P.) (And yes it is the truth... it hurts doesn't it?)
Jimyd is offline  


Old 02-27-2010, 12:04 AM   #531
GenghisTron
AKA LittleAndroidMan
D&A Member
Beta Tester
 
GenghisTron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Dystopia
Class/Position: Demo/Medic
Gametype: CTF
Affiliations: [TALOS] [SR]
Posts Rated Helpful 11 Times
BRB LAUGHING @ THIS THREAD

So it's settled then? Snipers have a universally poor understanding of the English language, and lack basic reading comprehension.
__________________
GenghisTron is offline  


Old 02-27-2010, 12:49 AM   #532
reaper18
sKeeD
D&A Member
Beta Tester
 
reaper18's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Class/Position: Scout, Demo, Solly
Gametype: Any
Posts Rated Helpful 21 Times
Send a message via AIM to reaper18
reaper18 is offline  


Old 02-27-2010, 12:56 AM   #533
xks
Exceedingly Correct.
 
xks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: London, England.
Class/Position: Variable
Gametype: QuakeLive CTF
Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by mervaka View Post
tables have turned eh? at least the sniper doesn't gib in one hit. i think impediment of aim is the only way anyone's going to be able to interact back with the sniper. remember they also have to actually hit them.
The Sniper only gibs in one hit with a certain amount of charge (depending on the target) on his rifle.

It's very difficult to avoid grenades, gunfire or an onrushing opponent if you are charged up/charging up.

Then you also have to go through the very small matter of actually hitting them with a sufficiently powerful shot to kill them before they are upon you. This window of opportunity can be anything from 3 seconds to 30 seconds, although when it comes to decent players it's usually in the lower region.

Having view kick would simply make it near impossible for the Sniper to shoot anyone charging towards him. The only real hope would be ducking in/out of cover with those (even more annoying than being gibbed) tap shots with no charge.

As it stands right now, most classes in the game can successfully traverse mid and engage a Sniper. They may die several times in order to close the gap, but they do eventually close the gap as the Sniper cannot possibly hit them all, all of the time. Once the gap is closed the Sniper is almost always dead or at the very least rendered useless.

If the player harassing the Sniper chooses to hang around and make the Snipers life a misery at this point, then he will enjoy success, as the Sniper has very little to offer in close range combat.

I'd say skill-based games such as FF should stay away from skill-mitigating bullshit such as view kick. Leave those 'realism' features for a realism based mod and let everyone here play a proper game.

It isn't fun dying, it's certainly not fun dying before you get a chance to perform your offensive duty, but it absolutely isn't unfair.

If you want the Sniper to work in competitive play then you need to give him an instant full-charge and less health with no armour to compensate. That way he's even more of a glass cannon, but may just be useful enough to use in competitive games.

Some of you are saying the Sniper is overpowered and too strong on publics, but it's useless in competitive matches and is never used as a result. You can't have it both ways, although I'm sure you will try.

The only change I'd make to the Sniper right now is to reduce the charge up time and remove their armour completely.

Last edited by xks; 02-27-2010 at 12:58 AM.
xks is offline  


Old 02-27-2010, 01:15 AM   #534
mervaka
A Very Sound Guy!
Fortress Forever Staff
 
mervaka's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UK
Posts Rated Helpful 15 Times
i never mentioned realism. the whole idea of it was for interaction. your idea of a "glass cannon" does interest me somewhat though.
mervaka is offline  


Old 02-27-2010, 02:14 AM   #535
Gwarsbane
Slayer of humans
D&A Member
 
Gwarsbane's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Mostly on earth though in some alt dimensions
Class/Position: I'm an Offensive Defensive person
Gametype: Fortress Forever
Affiliations: I'm a merc, only thing that talks is money
Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by mervaka View Post
you really didn't read my post then.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmo View Post
as with most posts it seems
I covered mervaka other post when I replied to someone else. A few others and I have counted all the arguments, time and time again. GenghisTron even admitted that at the very least I have, but yet got upset that I didn't include something in a list, accusing me of leaving it out on purpose, all the while not bothering to try to counter my counters, then he insults me, and is now just making silly and insulting posts saying I lack an understanding of english. (still not trying to actually counter with anything).

I wasn't going to go though 25 pages of stuff to see if there was anything I missed when I tried to gather them all up in one post. It all went off memory and guess what, I missed something, I even asked if I missed something.


So I guess that means that you 2 didn't bother reading my posts, go figure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mervaka View Post
i never mentioned realism. the whole idea of it was for interaction. your idea of a "glass cannon" does interest me somewhat though.
ok so now you don't think there is any interaction between snipers and anyone else is that right?

I guess that means you have to get rid of all the guns in the game then because everyone of them can be used without any interaction.

Sniper shoots scout, scout doesn't get a chance to fight back, scout dies, no interaction.

Engi railguns scout, scout doesn't get a chance to fight back, scout dies no interaction.
Demo shotguns scout, scout doesn't get a chance to fight back, scout dies, no interaction.
Heavy shoots scout, scout doesn't get a chance to fight back, scout dies, no interaction.

Theres 3 examples of no interaction, so I guess that means the engi, demo and heavy have to be nerfed or removed from the game.

I picked scout but it could be any class.

Anytime one class shoots another and the other doesn't shoot back there is no interaction. Since all classes can do this (shoot someone who is not shooting back) it means all classes are open to non-interaction.
Gwarsbane is offline  


Old 02-27-2010, 02:47 AM   #536
xks
Exceedingly Correct.
 
xks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: London, England.
Class/Position: Variable
Gametype: QuakeLive CTF
Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by mervaka View Post
i never mentioned realism. the whole idea of it was for interaction. your idea of a "glass cannon" does interest me somewhat though.
I know you didn't mention realism, I did, with reference to the view kick idea and how it's something more akin to a realism mod. Since FF is not a realism mod I definitely don't like the idea of view kick (not that I think it's really a good idea anyway).

Glass cannon is the only real solution to the Sniper situation as there is no other way to 'balance' it for all situations without making it even more pointless and no fun.

Whether people in this thread like it or not, the Sniper is there to kill you (ideally at long range). That's what the Sniper is there to do, it's obviously not a very effective class because it's never used in competitive games. Since this is a team game, you should be seeing a Sniper as a weakness in your opponents team and exploiting it just the same way you would in a competitive game.

If anything you should simply reduce the charge time by at least half in order to make the class the slightest bit appealing for competitive play. Even then I don't think you'd actually see it played though, which should tell you just how bad the Sniper is.
xks is offline  


Old 02-27-2010, 03:00 AM   #537
Agent Buckshot Moose
Wiki Standards Team
Wiki Team
 
Agent Buckshot Moose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Geokill's closet
Class/Position: Sniper/Demoman
Gametype: CTF
Affiliations: :e0: Co-leader
Posts Rated Helpful 6 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by xks View Post
If anything you should simply reduce the charge time by at least half in order to make the class the slightest bit appealing for competitive play. Even then I don't think you'd actually see it played though, which should tell you just how bad the Sniper is.
At one point during the beta we tried a 3 second charge time. With two snipers on shutdown2 it was hilarious.... Well, for me and the other guy testing it. It went up to 5 seconds after that.
Agent Buckshot Moose is offline  


Old 02-27-2010, 03:06 AM   #538
Bridget
Banned
 
Bridget's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Class/Position: Soldier
Gametype: AVD
Affiliations: TALOS
Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwarsbane View Post
Engi railguns scout, scout doesn't get a chance to fight back, scout dies no interaction.
Demo shotguns scout, scout doesn't get a chance to fight back, scout dies, no interaction.
Heavy shoots scout, scout doesn't get a chance to fight back, scout dies, no interaction.
Railgun is a dodgeable projectile and whether the outcome be death or a succesful dodge, the intended target is receiving feedback on whether what he is doing is either positive or negative.

The Demoman's hitscan weapon is a single shotgun. The Scout has the same single shotgun. If the Demoman can hit the Scout with the single shotgun, then the Scout can just as equally hit the Demoman with the same gun.

The Heavy is only really effective at close range. This is always where the Scout is most effective considering his weapons. Now, does that mean the Scout will win? Does the Scout have a chance in hell against a Heavy? No. I know what you're going to say: A-HA! GOT YOU! SEE, EVERY CLASS IS UNFAIR. Well, no.

The Scout, regardless of how low his potential for combat is, experiences it at maximum when he is within the same range as the Heavy. The potential for maximum interaction for each class and between the two classes are one to one.

Scout vs a Sniper. The Scout is on one side of the map. The Sniper is on the other. The Scout can not interact with the Sniper at his maximum capacity, but the Sniper can interact with the Scout at his maximum capacity. Whoop. Point.

Scout vs Heavy at long range. Both classes suffer at long range. Both classes can interact at nearly the same effectiveness at long range, which is not at all that effective.

Actually, the classes besides Sniper generally follow this rule. Now, there are some classes with weapons that break it. For example, the Soldier and Engineer and Demoman have weapons they can use from long range where others do not.

This is a problem, but it is definitely not as huge of a problem, considering those classes do not focus upon long range ENTIRELY and especially considering how impractical it is to kill people across the map consistently with the rocket launcher or railgun or the time you need to run across the map, set pipes, run back, and so on.

Unlike the Sniper.
Bridget is offline  


Old 02-27-2010, 03:09 AM   #539
DarkeN_HellspawN
FORUM ADM!N
 
DarkeN_HellspawN's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The Sun
Class/Position: O/D D/O - For life or death
Gametype: 2fort Spectating Llama GD Ex. TALOS Sniper
Affiliations: FF God, The Yellow Brotherhood
Posts Rated Helpful 13 Times
snipers have huge penisis

point blank. They are more FF then 2fort. People love getting shot by a sniper.

dh
__________________
If you come across a great Yellow entity offering a yellow pill, take it. Its sunshine will grow in you stomach like a bowl of Sea Monkeys - The Great Yellow Book Page 8765 Ch. 194 -Section 3
DarkeN_HellspawN is offline  


Old 02-27-2010, 06:11 AM   #540
blackout
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Gametype: Capture the Flag
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
Quote:
i think everyone agrees aardvark is notorious for snipers, due to map design. my issue with 2fort specifically is that there isn't really a feasible alternative route at present. Valve tended to this problem in TF2 by putting a canopy over the bridge and breaking up the midmap somewhat. perhaps something similar could be done for ff_2fort
:X It really didn't do much, I still wrecked people running under, there's cracks in the roof and such, plus people just start running over top.
blackout is offline  


Closed Thread

Tags
argument, balance, long range, mechanics, sniper


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 09:07 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.