02-26-2010, 06:57 PM | #521 | |
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
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Cloaking ability would have been the more realistic choice for sniper because they hide and use camoflauge. Radio tag reminds me more of a spy movie with their tracking devices :P If they were switched, it'd make more sense, but that would be too overpowering for the sniper IMO and probably make even more players frustrated when they are constantly killed but cannot find the guy. |
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02-26-2010, 07:48 PM | #522 | ||
AKA LittleAndroidMan
D&A Member
Beta Tester Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Dystopia
Class/Position: Demo/Medic Gametype: CTF Affiliations: [TALOS] [SR] Posts Rated Helpful 11 Times
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*kinda You've debated the arguments that I'm talking about--probably multiple times. I was just expounding the extreme irony of the fact that every strong argument against the sniper was magically missing from your post, when in fact, you've already debated them. So ignorance of these issues isn't an excuse. Spare me your explanations, I don't care--anyone with a shred intellectual honesty and a sense of objectivity would see the sniper doesn't work in a game that's based around mid-to-close range DM, where the objective is (most of the time) to capture the flag. Your only defense of the sniper is apologetic, you sub-conciously realize that the sniper is broken, that's why all of your 'advice' was to avoid the sniper, using varying methods, rather than making the sniper 'fit' into the game, and make him compatible. By your own intellectual dishonesty, you sub-conciously told us you know the sniper is broken, but because you're so attached to it's crusty anus, you're instead making excuses that the snipers opponent is at fault. It's the other way around, the sniper doesn't interact with his opponents. Quote:
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02-26-2010, 08:33 PM | #523 |
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
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must of hit a nerve haha, the fact that your countering our arguments with anger and insults tells me your really have nothing to say against our points. so i'll just sit and wait until you finsh your tantrum and have something intelligent to say.
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02-26-2010, 08:40 PM | #524 |
AKA LittleAndroidMan
D&A Member
Beta Tester Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Dystopia
Class/Position: Demo/Medic Gametype: CTF Affiliations: [TALOS] [SR] Posts Rated Helpful 11 Times
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Nah, the only nerve you hit was 'this guy is retarded, how many times does this shit have to be repeated for him to actually understand it'. As mervaka said, you guys (snipers) are like the bankers and their bonuses. You. Just. Don't. Get. It.
Also, 4 out of the 5 sentences directed towards you, contained substantive arguments. The fact that you ignored everything else I said, because I called you a 'cry baby', is further proof, that you are, in fact, a cry baby. Face it, you're wrong.
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02-26-2010, 09:00 PM | #525 | |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
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/tophat, monocle, cigar, scotch |
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02-26-2010, 09:05 PM | #526 | |||
A Very Sound Guy!
Fortress Forever Staff
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UK
Posts Rated Helpful 15 Times
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tables have turned eh? at least the sniper doesn't gib in one hit. i think impediment of aim is the only way anyone's going to be able to interact back with the sniper. remember they also have to actually hit them. |
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02-26-2010, 09:54 PM | #527 | ||||||
Slayer of humans
D&A Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Mostly on earth though in some alt dimensions
Class/Position: I'm an Offensive Defensive person Gametype: Fortress Forever Affiliations: I'm a merc, only thing that talks is money Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times
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They are of course dependent on your skill. If you don't have the skill to do any of those things then of course no matter what the skill level of the sniper it could be hard to get across the map and kill them or get to the flag. Thats where the learning comes in. You learn new ways to get out of your base. You learn new ways to get across the map. You learn new ways to go after the sniper/flag. There is no such thing as a perfect sniper, hell even an aimbot with wall hacks is not perfect. Everything I suggested there was ways to counter the snipers (and in general other classes). People just have to learn how to do them. They are not 100% perfect, nothing is. But even if its 1 out of 10 chances that you get out, get across the map and directly attack the sniper then great. But there are also other things you can do. Every class has weapons that can be fired and hit the other side of the map. Unless the sniper is hurt most are not instant kills, but they are distracting to the sniper. Quote:
And yes you can have both styles of combat in the same game. I prefer close up and personal attacks with all the weapons I have and that includes high explosives, others prefer medium range attacks, and others prefer long range attacks. But I can do all 3 with virtually any class. Some are just more effective then others. I have tranqed killed from across a map. I have killed with a nail gun from across a map. I have killed with a rocket from across a map. I have killed with a shot gun from across a map. I have killed with a mini gun from across a map. I have killed with the pyro launcher from across a map. I have killed with a rail gun from across a map. They haven't been instant kills (except for the rail gun, I have gotten many instant kills with that), which is what some seem to be upset about. But they were still kills though someone of them were kind of instant kills due to the person being low in heath. And yes many of those killed were snipers. So big deal that a sniper can instant kill from across the map. The spy can instant kill from close up without the person having a chance to fight back. A soldier can almost instant kill with his rockets though he can keep you from fighting back by keeping you in the air. All three classes take skill to do this consistently. Quote:
Any class can kill at a distance, some can even instant kill (as in it hits and you're dead). This seems to be the main thing people are crying about. Guess what it happens, deal with it by getting better and learn to dodge because yes, even a sniper can be dodged, I know I do it all the time, hell I even dance in front of them taunting them as they miss time after time. And this is out in the open, or in a long narrow tunnel. Snipers are not perfect. Sometimes they kill me, sometimes I kill them, sometimes we kill each other, sometimes we both live. This is against both good and bad snipers. Quote:
And to you it might be a "strong" argument against the sniper but to me it was just another weak excuse that people are using to try to get rid of the sniper because they suck against the snipers (which some have admitted to in this and/or other thread that they can't even get out of the spawn because of snipers). There have been so many excuses that I lost track of them all. Boo freakin hoo. You get all upset over the ones I supposedly missed, trying to make it seem like I did it on purpose yet with virtually the same breathe you say that I already debated them. I guess I'm damned if I do damned if I don't. Quote:
Again I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. And no I don't believe the sniper is broken, and no all my advice is not to avoid snipers, all my advice was to help people avoid getting shot by a sniper. It was suggestions to help them get out of a spawn or across the yard to get to the sniper or get to the enemy base. I can get out of my spawn and take on a sniper. I might get killed a few times, big deal, I just figure out a way to get out. Then I go kill the sniper, or I go distract the sniper, or go for his base to get the flag and kill others. Quote:
Now no doubt I have missed something, and no doubt I will be accused of purposely leaving it off. Guess what I'm human, I also have a life outside of these forums and don't have the time or the interest to look through every single post, and try to decipher hidden meanings in posts or reread every freakin post of a 27 page thread. 524posts are a little much to go through, and unlike some, I don't have a picture perfect memory to remember every one of them. Now as you have said, I have already countered all the points and if we keep going like this we're just going to keep going around and round and round, and I will no doubt end up countering all the points all again. To the devs. If you take out the sniper or nerf it badly you're going to loose more players then you gain. And it WILL NOT ONLY BE PEOPLE WHO ONLY PLAY SNIPERS who will leave. It will also be people like me that enjoy playing against good snipers. How about this, you don't want to play against snipers then go play on a server that don't allow them. You don't want snipers in clan/pickup/whatever play then include an easy way that server admins can exclude snipers. |
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02-26-2010, 10:30 PM | #528 |
A Very Sound Guy!
Fortress Forever Staff
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UK
Posts Rated Helpful 15 Times
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you really didn't read my post then.
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02-26-2010, 11:24 PM | #529 |
Gets tickled by FF
Fortress Forever Staff
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: UK
Class/Position: Med Solly HW Gametype: Any/CTF Posts Rated Helpful 41 Times
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as with most posts it seems
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02-27-2010, 12:02 AM | #530 |
[]< ,,\/_ ^_~ _\/,, >[]
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Sacramento, CA
Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
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Ya I know am going to get flamed for this but...
Step Your Game Up Bitch!? (Yes that is the equivalent I use for L2P.) (And yes it is the truth... it hurts doesn't it?) |
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02-27-2010, 12:04 AM | #531 |
AKA LittleAndroidMan
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Beta Tester Join Date: Sep 2007
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Class/Position: Demo/Medic Gametype: CTF Affiliations: [TALOS] [SR] Posts Rated Helpful 11 Times
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BRB LAUGHING @ THIS THREAD
So it's settled then? Snipers have a universally poor understanding of the English language, and lack basic reading comprehension.
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02-27-2010, 12:49 AM | #532 |
sKeeD
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02-27-2010, 12:56 AM | #533 | |
Exceedingly Correct.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: London, England.
Class/Position: Variable Gametype: QuakeLive CTF Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times
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It's very difficult to avoid grenades, gunfire or an onrushing opponent if you are charged up/charging up. Then you also have to go through the very small matter of actually hitting them with a sufficiently powerful shot to kill them before they are upon you. This window of opportunity can be anything from 3 seconds to 30 seconds, although when it comes to decent players it's usually in the lower region. Having view kick would simply make it near impossible for the Sniper to shoot anyone charging towards him. The only real hope would be ducking in/out of cover with those (even more annoying than being gibbed) tap shots with no charge. As it stands right now, most classes in the game can successfully traverse mid and engage a Sniper. They may die several times in order to close the gap, but they do eventually close the gap as the Sniper cannot possibly hit them all, all of the time. Once the gap is closed the Sniper is almost always dead or at the very least rendered useless. If the player harassing the Sniper chooses to hang around and make the Snipers life a misery at this point, then he will enjoy success, as the Sniper has very little to offer in close range combat. I'd say skill-based games such as FF should stay away from skill-mitigating bullshit such as view kick. Leave those 'realism' features for a realism based mod and let everyone here play a proper game. It isn't fun dying, it's certainly not fun dying before you get a chance to perform your offensive duty, but it absolutely isn't unfair. If you want the Sniper to work in competitive play then you need to give him an instant full-charge and less health with no armour to compensate. That way he's even more of a glass cannon, but may just be useful enough to use in competitive games. Some of you are saying the Sniper is overpowered and too strong on publics, but it's useless in competitive matches and is never used as a result. You can't have it both ways, although I'm sure you will try. The only change I'd make to the Sniper right now is to reduce the charge up time and remove their armour completely. Last edited by xks; 02-27-2010 at 12:58 AM. |
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02-27-2010, 01:15 AM | #534 |
A Very Sound Guy!
Fortress Forever Staff
Join Date: May 2005
Location: UK
Posts Rated Helpful 15 Times
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i never mentioned realism. the whole idea of it was for interaction. your idea of a "glass cannon" does interest me somewhat though.
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02-27-2010, 02:14 AM | #535 | |
Slayer of humans
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Class/Position: I'm an Offensive Defensive person Gametype: Fortress Forever Affiliations: I'm a merc, only thing that talks is money Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times
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I covered mervaka other post when I replied to someone else. A few others and I have counted all the arguments, time and time again. GenghisTron even admitted that at the very least I have, but yet got upset that I didn't include something in a list, accusing me of leaving it out on purpose, all the while not bothering to try to counter my counters, then he insults me, and is now just making silly and insulting posts saying I lack an understanding of english. (still not trying to actually counter with anything).
I wasn't going to go though 25 pages of stuff to see if there was anything I missed when I tried to gather them all up in one post. It all went off memory and guess what, I missed something, I even asked if I missed something. So I guess that means that you 2 didn't bother reading my posts, go figure. Quote:
I guess that means you have to get rid of all the guns in the game then because everyone of them can be used without any interaction. Sniper shoots scout, scout doesn't get a chance to fight back, scout dies, no interaction. Engi railguns scout, scout doesn't get a chance to fight back, scout dies no interaction. Demo shotguns scout, scout doesn't get a chance to fight back, scout dies, no interaction. Heavy shoots scout, scout doesn't get a chance to fight back, scout dies, no interaction. Theres 3 examples of no interaction, so I guess that means the engi, demo and heavy have to be nerfed or removed from the game. I picked scout but it could be any class. Anytime one class shoots another and the other doesn't shoot back there is no interaction. Since all classes can do this (shoot someone who is not shooting back) it means all classes are open to non-interaction. |
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02-27-2010, 02:47 AM | #536 | |
Exceedingly Correct.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: London, England.
Class/Position: Variable Gametype: QuakeLive CTF Posts Rated Helpful 1 Times
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Glass cannon is the only real solution to the Sniper situation as there is no other way to 'balance' it for all situations without making it even more pointless and no fun. Whether people in this thread like it or not, the Sniper is there to kill you (ideally at long range). That's what the Sniper is there to do, it's obviously not a very effective class because it's never used in competitive games. Since this is a team game, you should be seeing a Sniper as a weakness in your opponents team and exploiting it just the same way you would in a competitive game. If anything you should simply reduce the charge time by at least half in order to make the class the slightest bit appealing for competitive play. Even then I don't think you'd actually see it played though, which should tell you just how bad the Sniper is. |
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02-27-2010, 03:00 AM | #537 |
Wiki Standards Team
Wiki Team
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Location: Geokill's closet
Class/Position: Sniper/Demoman Gametype: CTF Affiliations: :e0: Co-leader Posts Rated Helpful 6 Times
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At one point during the beta we tried a 3 second charge time. With two snipers on shutdown2 it was hilarious.... Well, for me and the other guy testing it. It went up to 5 seconds after that.
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02-27-2010, 03:06 AM | #538 | |
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Class/Position: Soldier Gametype: AVD Affiliations: TALOS Posts Rated Helpful 5 Times
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Quote:
The Demoman's hitscan weapon is a single shotgun. The Scout has the same single shotgun. If the Demoman can hit the Scout with the single shotgun, then the Scout can just as equally hit the Demoman with the same gun. The Heavy is only really effective at close range. This is always where the Scout is most effective considering his weapons. Now, does that mean the Scout will win? Does the Scout have a chance in hell against a Heavy? No. I know what you're going to say: A-HA! GOT YOU! SEE, EVERY CLASS IS UNFAIR. Well, no. The Scout, regardless of how low his potential for combat is, experiences it at maximum when he is within the same range as the Heavy. The potential for maximum interaction for each class and between the two classes are one to one. Scout vs a Sniper. The Scout is on one side of the map. The Sniper is on the other. The Scout can not interact with the Sniper at his maximum capacity, but the Sniper can interact with the Scout at his maximum capacity. Whoop. Point. Scout vs Heavy at long range. Both classes suffer at long range. Both classes can interact at nearly the same effectiveness at long range, which is not at all that effective. Actually, the classes besides Sniper generally follow this rule. Now, there are some classes with weapons that break it. For example, the Soldier and Engineer and Demoman have weapons they can use from long range where others do not. This is a problem, but it is definitely not as huge of a problem, considering those classes do not focus upon long range ENTIRELY and especially considering how impractical it is to kill people across the map consistently with the rocket launcher or railgun or the time you need to run across the map, set pipes, run back, and so on. Unlike the Sniper. |
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02-27-2010, 03:09 AM | #539 |
FORUM ADM!N
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: The Sun
Class/Position: O/D D/O - For life or death Gametype: 2fort Spectating Llama GD Ex. TALOS Sniper Affiliations: FF God, The Yellow Brotherhood Posts Rated Helpful 13 Times
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snipers have huge penisis
point blank. They are more FF then 2fort. People love getting shot by a sniper.
dh
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If you come across a great Yellow entity offering a yellow pill, take it. Its sunshine will grow in you stomach like a bowl of Sea Monkeys - The Great Yellow Book Page 8765 Ch. 194 -Section 3 |
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02-27-2010, 06:11 AM | #540 | |
Join Date: Jan 2010
Gametype: Capture the Flag Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times
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argument, balance, long range, mechanics, sniper |
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