Snipers! They don't belong.

[GenghisTron]

http://talos.hlstatsx.com/playerinfo/122

Sniper needs buffing, clearly. They're so weak at short/medium range. They need help.

[SSCUJO]

lol, exo's stats as solider would look no different.

you are looking at the best sniper in FF of course he's going to be unstoppable.

[GenghisTron]

4.0 K/D ratio? I doubt it.

[SSCUJO]

i don't

[TheKing]

6:1 as engy? Looks like you're picking on the wrong class.

I'm drunkenly watching the LOST premier I'll get back to you guys tomorrow.

[GenghisTron]

Oh wow, 6:1 when he's killed 300 people. Wow, great comparison, bro. False equivalencies ftw.

OH, and to further illustrate my point, here's a visual aid!

[GenghisTron]

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

i don't

That's your prerogative then. Enjoy, sir.

[TheKing]

The problem with your post is that you have no way to differentiate between my k:d as different classes - talos' stats don't offer class-based figures. My k:d as an engy are consistently about a kill better than as sniper.

You've successfully pointed out that I'm a good player. Let me know when you find k:d stats that single out a specific class and contradict my statement about my k:d as an engy vs as a sniper (hint: you won't).

[VentuSag3]

<durp>

Hey guys lets use K/D ratio to determine game balance because as we all know this game is all about midmap DM and has nothing to do with flags.

</durp>

[Dr.Satan]

? I don't know whether to delete that or not...

[Raynian]

Thread over, Moya wins.

[Iggy]

Originally Posted by Dr.Satan

? I don't know whether to delete that or not...

I do.... it's nothing more than a total off-topic nonsense hijack post.

{shrug}

Carry on.

[eomoyaff]

Oi, you deleted my post. That was harsh. And it was totally related to snipers. One BIG metaphor. Thanks :\ lamer.

[Eon Seig]

Bridget, do you want a suggestion that may both satisfy you and actually cause the Sniper to lose nothing at all? I bet you do.

You say the sniper can't "have his cake and eat it too", but actually this is not the case. The Sniper can have his cake, and eat it. We just have to make that cake taste bad. Allow me to explain.

You primary gripe is the Sniper's double-whammy of super-powered weapon and range privilege. He can have both, and use them, but let's make his range privilege become less effective at longer ranges.

Instead of simply being an instant-travel hitscan, the Sniper Rifle shot remains a hitscan until mid-range, at which point the hitscan bullet stops and is replaced by a railgun projectile that is the same power and flight path as the hitscan shot. The rail does not tag, headshot, or leg cripple, but it still has very high damage. At closer than medium range, the Sniper maintains all his privileges and abilities. Beyond that, he can still kill effectively, but it is more difficult and allows the target to actually react and do something within his power to resist the attack and survive.

The idea here is that, past a certain range, the sniper bullet decelerates and tumbles, causing it to burn up due to extremely high friction.

As a visual aid, the Sniper's laser dot would turn blue if it is hitting a surface that is at or beyond mid-range. This would allow people who see the dot to know that the incoming sniper round will not be instant-travel, so they have a chance at moving past.

[Green Mushy]

Some theories as to why the sniper doesnt fit, in a more objective way:

• All classes lose effectiveness over range

• All classes must take a risk to deal damage effectively

• All classes have a mechanic where the more risk you take, the higher chance for reward. Meaning that, as u get closer, u can do more damage.

• All classes are fun to play against

If some of these rules are broken by other classes, they are also problems. I dont feel that saying "engi is the only class that builds sentryguns, so engi doesnt fit" is looking at the issue deep enough. First off, nobody feels in any way that the class doesnt fit. Secondly, it seems to also not break any of those rules. There are some classes that do break some of those rules, like spy cloaking for example, but that is an issue with spy. We cant use broken mechanics to justify the existence of an even more broken mechanic. Its like saying "spy is broken, so its ok that sniper is broken."

Many people have stated previously that all we really need to do is make the weapon a projectile. Players can dodge, interact, and sniper will lose some of what we dislike about it. If we do that, we simultaneously remove the uniqueness of the class, and nerf his ability. He now basically has a railgun, and an inability to kill as effectively as he did before, which wasnt the problem. We do not fix one of the major, if not the highest priority issue: That the class is not fun to play against. The weapon we would give him already exists in the game, and we already feel that weapon has problems too. Not to mention, that we still leave another huge issue unsolved, that the sniper doesnt have to take any risk to deal damage. His playstyle is to try and NOT fight. NOT take damage. NOT be seen. Which is not exemplary of why FF is fun. It gets back to the chess analogy i made. It is a unique playstyle, takes some skill, and FF has certainly prided itself on its many different classes, but i do believe it is possible that we just have a class that doesnt belong. The class doesnt help make clear why FF is fun, or why FF is unique and deserves place in the world. When i played TFC for the first time, coming from CS, the most attractive thing to me was that refreshing playstyle, where seeing the other guy first didnt mean you won. Where you fought with the enemy, and the outcome was based on many decisions and overall accuracy, timing, movement. You can look back on the fight and see what went wrong, what to do better next time. You could effectively fight, fights took time, and you had fun.

My temptation is to say: Long distance shooting retains abilities of not risking anything to fight, and is not fun to be shot. It is not interactive(meaning that players cant "get into a fight"), and any attempt to making the class interactive is just giving the class a pre-existing weapon (a railgun)that STILL has some of the same problems. We were talking on the dev forums too, about what would the role of sniper be if we were to make it into a legitimate class that would be used in competitive play( read "competitive" as "a situation where you are trying hard to do the objective"). What specific and unique role would it play? Im not speaking on behalf of the dev team, but I believe, thus far, we are stumped. Most of the functionality we have, or plan for each class, seems to be fulfilling any need of an offensive or defensive team, and it seems like were trying to get sniper to work just because its already in. It doesnt serve any specific design purpose that we find desirable. Just being a fun pub class, or class u dick around with, isnt a desirable direction to us. I'm tempted to go the way of civilian and just leave it as a class specifically enabled through lua on gametypes where it works( on Hunted maps, or any future gametypes that could utilize this class ). I personally dont think its good for the game as a whole.

[Sidd]

I has idea based on adding interaction. How about if the other classes could deflect the sniper bullets? If the following conditions are met, then the player passively deflects the bullet and takes no damage.

• Sufficiently far away - mb half an aardvarkish
• Wielding melee weapon - this is what he uses to deflect the bullet
• Looking the right direction - has to be able to see the bullet coming

To compensate the sniper, you can reduce the charge time on shots.

I think this preserves the sniper while removing the lameness. If you know you're at risk from a long range sniper then get out your crowbar and you're invincible. But if you're busy dm'ing his teammate or he's behind you then the sniper can pick you off. If you're too close to deflect, then you're close enough to attack him back.

[Born_In_Xixax]

Great post Mushy, I think you've captured the root issues nicely - with the game in the hands of devs such as you, surely it will prosper

I can appreciate also the consternation in trying to find a way to make sniper work better without removing him entirely. Below is a rough proposal, just to convey some concepts:

Slot1: sniper rifle
- Hitscan
- Scope (FOV)
- No movement slowdown, unless scoped
- No charge-up! - forced re-fire delay (1-2 seconds)
- Very (very!) faint red LOS laser sight (visible from all angles,) bright red dot
- Damage falls off with range. Damage should not exceed supershotgun by much - if any - at close range; though can drop off in damage at distance at a lower rate than supershotgun. An extreme range hit - aardvark - will do minimal damage (<5), but will effect a push (slow/stop your conc), and radio tag you. It should take 3 hits to kill another sniper at 2fort battlements range. It should take 2 hits to kill another sniper at close range - 2fort flag room. Have to play with this to find the right balance.
- Headshots do +50% damage, or maybe +25% damage and effect vision (conc/flashbang effect) temporarily
- Remove legshot/slow effect
- Radio tag, perhaps slightly increase time
Slot2: Auto rifle
- Hitscan, rapidfire
- Rate of damage should be similar, but slightly less, than the nailgun. A sniper with excellent aim will have a slightly better ROD than using a nailgun (hitscan versus projectile against dodging)
- For God's sake, steal the 'full auto' rifle sound from T2 where Sarah Connor attacks Miles Dyson's house
Slot3: Laser range finder
- No damage
- Red LOS laser sight line, red dot, as sniper rifle
- Scope as sniper rifle
- Guides friendly rockets to target! (might need to give soldiers a 'guided missile' slot, so they can choose whether to allow their rockets to be guided or not to avoid griefing) Perhaps mouse1/fire can trigger the closest friendly level 3 sentry to fire a guided rocket salvo..?
Gren1: GI as now
Gren2: Flashbang (a la CS), temporary blindness (1-2 sec), somewhat longer visual disturbance (like conc or tranq) with boost similar to GI grenade (or maybe conc). FB has lessened/shorter effect on self.

Some of the benefits here:
- At extreme/long range the sniper is little more than an early warning system (radio tag), but that's actually a pretty effective thing IF you're team is following up on the radio tags.
- No instant kills on full health players (maybe a headshot on a scout at close range).
- Mobility and offensive capability greatly enhanced with FB-jump and no movement penalty for using SR (unscoped)v
- Trade-off between safety/damage with distance
- Most deadly with SR at short/medium range, but ROF is limited and opponents will get a chance to fight back. A good opponent will learn to time the SR refire times and dodge appropriately - a good sniper will predict/aim well and land a lot of SR shots for high damage.
- Visible laser sight on SR reduces the effectiveness of static 'camping', gives visual feedback for dodging, and careful players can wait to break cover when they see the sight swing to another target
- Guided missiles! remember HLDM? Could be gimmicky or have unforeseen side-effects (for example making SGs less effective.) Could be tricky to use effectively, but with amazing results for skilled players. Encourages teamwork/cooperation

Scenarios:
- CTF Offense: Exit base, take an unscoped SR potshot at any incoming opponents to tag them, FB jump towards/up-to the enemy base. Use SR to tag defenders, then evade. Use speed, FB jumps for movement to approach flag, using radio tag to avoid defenders. Use SR/AR/GIs to kill if necessary. (One concern is that this 'mission profile' is too close to that of a medic, I would put the FB jump boost somewhat lower than a regular conc.)
- CTF defense: Use scoped SR to radio tag incomings in the yard. Engage with SR/AR/GI/FB at medium/short range in the approaches to tag/damage enemies. Use laser rangefinder to guide soldier/sentry rockets in the flag room. Lack of a 'showstopper' attack prevents sniper from being a core defensive class, though.
- AvD: Sit back in safety and plink/tag, or risk moving closer to the action to do more damage. Fire/guide sentry rocket salvos at approaching enemies/positions or at the possible spy nosing around the sentry/demoman.

By no means is this a fully baked, thought-out and playtested proposal - just wanted to get some 'out of the box' ideas going.

[SSCUJO]

by no means did i read the whole thing, but if the sniper cannot kill a unit in 1 shot at close/medium range and in 2 shots at long range the sniper is as good as dead. not only that but he no longer serves a purpose in the game since its so fast paced.

but i like that your thinking up ideas. good job.

[Dr.Satan]

Originally Posted by SSCUJO

by no means did i read the whole thing

then why did you bother replying? I seriously hate that mentality. "I didn't read everything you said, but I got the jist of it and here is my un-informed opinion..." Either read it all or don't, but if you're not going to then don't reply.

@ xixax - Nice concept...I still don't think that it addresses everything mushy listed, which is pretty much a very very simplified version of the dev thread about this, but it does put some pretty good ideas out there. Hopefully we can build off of some of that maybe.

[zE]

yo GenghisTron, you can´t simple take tk20 personal kdratio as sniper, as you link it. I Bet if you get a personal Kdratio of a good soldier playng in a pub would be the same, fair analysis is one that represents a comparison between all players / all classes.