Snipers! They don't belong.

[Bridget]

I have a level of intellectual honesty, therefore when I am bettered or bested, I admit defeat and am often complimentary with a level of admiration. If I am playing a Team Fortress game, and another Soldier comes from seemingly nowhere and gibs me with a rocket, then I move on. This applies to embarrassing situations as well. No matter how many crowbar wielding Scouts kill me while I am a Heavy, I will always be honest and admit my defeat.

However, when it comes to Snipers, I do not admit defeat. I do not feel that anyone playing Sniper in any game except a given few (Red Orchestra and Sniper Elite, for they both contain realistic physics, which acts as a huge con to snipers) is actively engaging in personal improvement or any challenge. I feel that Sniper is the 'de facto' class for people who can't fit with the actual flow of things. Now, am I saying Sniper takes no skill? Fuck no! Anyone who can pop a concing Scout out of the sky on Aardvark like he was a clay pigeon is absolutely skilled. I'm saying that doesn't belong.

Anyway, Let's look at some pros and cons.

SNIPER'S PROS:

1. Range privelege and advantage over every other class.
2. The most powerful weapon in the game.
3. A native wallhack on survivors
4. A crippling legshot to keep enemies at bay

SNIPER'S CONS:

1. Weak in terms of health and armor
2. No good backup weapon

Now, I would argue that Sniper's cons are very minimal considering his pros. Why does he need to worry about his health and armor with an inherent range advantage over the other classes? Why worry about that when his opponents can't even defend themselves without having to close the distance, in the process getting legshot and radio-tagged and beaten up by other enemies. Why does he need to worry about his health and armor when he has the most powerful weapon in the game to dramatically compliment his consistency-breaking range? Does he necessarily need a good backup weapon? In the rare chance someone gets through, he doesn't need a good backup weapon.

Every class other than the Sniper takes a level of personal danger when they address other classes that fight in their range limitations. The Heavy Weapons guy is inherently stronger than the Medic, but the Medic still has the immediate ability to fight back. It comes down to the skill between the two individuals. A battle between a Sniper with an immediate advantage versus a Soldier who has to first close the distance to actually kill the Sniper is in no way a test of skill. It's like Fischer beating a six year old in a game of chess. The Sniper takes little risk yet has all the spoils. On a side note, it is an interesting observation, but many Snipers hang out near their spawn to deem you a spawn camper when you kill them. I was banned from quite a few servers for 'spawn camping' Snipers who camped at their spawn doors on 2Fort and Well. I guess even they realize they're playing a class that needs to be cheap to win.

So, how do we lessen the problem? Currently, the Sniper has no real downside. For his huge advantages, you would expect a huge downside. His health and armor are not downsides. This isn't going to balance him, but it's a start. The Sniper can't have his cake and eat it too, so to speak. That's what's happening now. So here is what has to happen:

REMOVE RANGE PRIVILEGE KEEP POWERFUL WEAPON
~ OR ~
KEEP RANGE PRIVILEGE REMOVE POWERFUL WEAPON

Again, this is a start toward balance. The Sniper would keep a powerful weapon if he lost his range, but it would need to be fixed so he's not gibbing people the second they show up. Sniper should be rewarded for aim consistency instead of getting a weapon that just deals a shitload of damage if he just hits them once. I would prefer the following:

The Sniper should be called 'Sharpshooter' and he should function as a medium range class. His pro is that he would have a railgun that dealt huge amounts of damage the closer he is to the target or became more powerful for each consistent hit. The downside is that he has terrible health and armor. His huge advantage (a railgun that works fine at medium range, but better at close) is balanced (in theory) with a huge disadvantage: He has to get close to really shine with it (though not necessary) putting himself at risk.

PROTIP: THIS IS NOT A SUGGESTION THREAD, BUT A BRAINSTORM/DEBATE/CONTEMPLATE/ETC THREAD. I have nowhere else to put it, so don't LOCK it.

What do you think?

[zelenjava]

I sometimes play sniper on FF. I've seen people whine and moan about it. There is nothing more hilarious than half a team camping on the aardvark balc. Yet none of you are aware at just how crap the sniper class is, the reg is absoloutely shocking. The amount of times i fire through people should automatically stop any moan or complaint about the class being in the game. It's already nerfed by the most incredibly crap and annoying way possible. However, the sniper class serves no place in CTF imo. I just play it cause its a no brainer and after a stressful day it can be relaxing (as long as i dont start steaming about shooting some random 20 times while he stands still then kills me and says GG).

Point is, go engy and rail him

[Bridget]

What is Sniper's biggest con?

[VentuSag3]

I'd say the snipers biggest con is that the hitboxes in this game are extremely unforgiving. Being off by just millimeters counts as a miss, and that's when there is no lag. With lag you have to lead shots, which is even more fail.

Anyone who thinks sniper does not take skill either does not know what skill is or has never played as one.

[Bridget]

Originally Posted by VentuSag3

Anyone who thinks sniper does not take skill either does not know what skill is or has never played as one.

STRAWMANIN' IT UP.

Now, am I saying Sniper takes no skill? Fuck no! Anyone who can pop a concing Scout out of the sky on Aardvark like he was a clay pigeon is absolutely skilled. I'm saying that doesn't belong.

[GenghisTron]

I think snipers are irrelevant in CTF, and they're just annoying in pubs. I think a Sniper's true power is only realized in AvD/IvD/etc., maps, and it's where they truly shine. If you played ADL in TFC, you'd know what I mean. Being able to 'shoot' people out of the respawn when those gates open and 9 people are spamming your gates to death on some AvD map was great. Taking out defenders, taking out SG's, etc., snipers were invaluable in organized AvD play. In any other game type than AvD, I am opposed to snipers, but when used in AvD I fully support them.

[GenghisTron]

That being said, we need some organized AvD imo. #ff.pickup.avd, squeek go!

[Pon]

I think an AvD pickup channel was tried a while back, didn't seem to last very long though from what I remember.

[GenghisTron]

Well, I know 2.4 brought life back into this game (including for myself), maybe it should be tried again? Late night TFC AvD pickups where THE SHIT. I know of a few people who would love to do AvD pickups (Ideally I'd like UGC to get an ADL going, that would be epic).

[Pon]

I've nothing against someone giving it another go . I may even get off my backside and join it this time...

[squeek.]

I'm all for it as long as we get the pickup bot that was used in the last adl pickup channel attempt (#ff.adlpickup):

<@ADLPickupBot> Gather Bot is full and subsequent being playing listing been creating:

[Pon]

Thats one inbred bot

[GenghisTron]

Originally Posted by squeek.

I'm all for it as long as we get the pickup bot that was used in the last adl pickup channel attempt (#ff.adlpickup):

<@ADLPickupBot> Gather Bot is full and subsequent being playing listing been creating:

That's awesome

And yea, I'll help out if I'm allowed to, or possibly can. I'll definitely get some of my friends who aren't involved with the pickup community to start adding/idling. ADL pickups are so much fun, and it's so much less elitist than CTF pickups. The elitism in #ff.pickup is killing the community for me, and I think AvD pickups would be a huge boon to the community, where as CTF pickups achieve the opposite.

[Bridget]

THREAD DERAILED

[Pon]

sorry. Want it split up?

[GenghisTron]

Sorry sir.

[reaper18]

Sniper is easy to jump onto and play if you dont know the mechanics of this game, but there is a marginal difference between a good and a skilled sniper. The class does take skill to master

[Bridget]

No one is arguing that it doesn't take skill.

[Credge]

The real con of the sniper is that speed+Source=nope. Hunters from L4D are about as fast as you can get (maybe a bit faster) before things just start getting gay.

Other cons include:

More map dependent than other classes (only useful on AVD, some maps with long yards).

Can't defend in the base very well.

100% no mistakes or he's wasted a good chunk of time.

Has herpes.

The only thing the sniper does well is annoy. He doesn't do what a defense actually needs to do, waste the enemies time.

[SSCUJO]

ok so just to get this out, this is purely a counter arguement, its in no way personal, or should be deemed as such.

first i want to quickly address snipers having no place in CTF, i know myself and many other snipers have done great things to help their own team win, the yard is a big spot the sniper is always watching, and almost always the enemy flag carrier needs to come through it to cap. even if that enemy is killed once and caps next spawn, the sniper has done his job in giving his own team a time advantage in a close cap race. of course with legshots its even more effective to shoot the target in the leg twice and let them hobble to the cap. And if a sniper is lucky enough to get a player like bridget to focus 100% energy on trying to kill him the sniper has made the other team lose a player in the fight for the flag. snipers played properly are entirely useful in pub CTF play. moving along.

as bridget has already stated, great snipers have skill, and that skill takes time to develop, but with that skill comes domination. but that is also the same for every class in FF. you put me or king in a pub match sure we would dominate, but put me in a match where i have to snipe exo as solider, killu as medic, gator as scout, opey as heavy, etc etc. i guarantee i would be the most frustrated and pissed off sniper to ever play FF not to mention have a kill count beyond pitifull. when the best snipers are put up against the best of other classes the sniper is truely a trash class.

ok to my main arguement, the sniper may be over powered in the hands of me, king, and a select few others. put give the sniper class to any average or above average player and forget about it, the class all of a sudden becomes one of the worst and hardest classes to play. Bridget, you've mastered the art of annoying and killing snipers,
even people like king get killed by medics and soliders and he is imo the best sniper in this game, imagine an average sniper on the opposing team, they would most likely not even warrent your attention, but if you focused 100% of your energy on him he would stand absolutely no chance.

Everyone is angry at the best snipers in the game, nobody realizes there are far more average snipers and new snipers that enjoy a class that is (for the unskilled) one of the hardest classes in the game, those players not only become a non factor but or so useless they are often ignored completely, only getting the odd kill here or there. when looked at from the majority of people who play sniper, this class is horribly underpowered. you can't change the class balance because a few guys are really good at it, that would just make it even more crippling for the uninitiated.

i don't want to use the hitboxes as an excuse because for the best snipers (the ones that cause frustration) it is almost a non issue becuase the adjustments are made and compinsated for. i feel even if the hitboxes were fixed the sniper would still be under powered to the average player. but that would need to be tested to know for sure.

anyway once again, Bridget you have a great arguement. this is how i see things, i respect what your saying, but until the sniper needs no skill to be dominating, it will have to stay the same, to be playable for the masses.