FF going to blow up soon!

[KubeDawg]

Originally Posted by Scuzzy

I don't know where you are getting your data, but you are completely wrong. FF is a direct competitor to TF2. Case in point, of the people in the Fortress Forever group last night around 9pm there were:

135 In Game

60 of them were in TF2 (44%)
10 of them were in TFC (7%)
15 of them were in Misc Steam Games (Portal, CS, etc) (11%)
50 were in an Unknown Mod (hopefully FF) (37%)

I've watched these statistics for a while now, and that's a pretty good normal sampling. I also pulled the statistics for the 200+ beta testers and dev team, and will not post them here, but trust me, TF2 is a direct competitor. Anyone claiming otherwise is deluding themselves.

I appreciate that you all want a plan to change the direction of FF, to make it a success, and that's admirable. But first you need to examine what market you're going after and how success is defined in relation to this game.

You obviously haven't seen the tens of thousands of people that flock the TF2 group... FF is not a competitor of TF2 by a long shot. We need to not worry about what direction TF2 goes to attract people and focus on what attracts users to TFC/FF.

Originally Posted by Scuzzy

The Market

You've all claimed that "we need more players". Ok... the game is currently geared toward the high-end player, the skills player, bhoppers, etc. That's the market that was picked to focus on.

Bhop

The ability to bhop was made much easier in thoughts that it would make the regular "newbie" have an easier time learning how to do it and get them on a more level playing field with skilled veterans. I think that assumption has been proved incorrect. It, with the incredible speed you can now accomplish, made newbies have absolutely no chance against someone flying by. On Aardvark a demo can see a scout coming around that corner and whisk past the flag in two hops, all the way around the room and unless his timing is absolutely perfect, that scout is going to get past. What fun is there in that for someone who has barely played? If you continue to make bhop faster you're going to appease a smaller portion of your market, but alienate a great deal more new players. People new to a game don't want to hear you have to learn to jump up and down to move really fast, it doesn't make sense to a person unfamiliar with the history of TF games. Don't continue to expect bhop to attract players.

Uptrimping takes care of a lot of bhopping by itself, meaning on a level ground, bhopping would be useful, but going upward to an enemy base would still be just as difficult. TFC was well known for its bhopping capabilities, and just because some noob doesn't know how to do it, doesn't make it a bad feature to have. Increase the bhop cap, and lower the margin of error to be able to do a bhop/trimp and it will be fine.

Originally Posted by Scuzzy

Teleporters

Teleporters, for good or bad, gave newbies a way to move really fast and compete with skilled veterans. It gave engineers a chance to "help" their fellow team mates. Why do you think medic in TF2 is so popular, even though they don't really battle? It is a direct marketing to need for people to help others. I am not saying you should implement teleporters, but you need to acknowledge that Engys and Teleporters are a good part of what brought completely unskilled players to the game. THOSE people brought their friends and over time together they got better.

I'm not advocating the change of bhop or addition of teleporters, but merely the thought that you need to really consider your Market before you go head-on into making changes to the game. Otherwise you may end up losing some of the players you already have and not attract new ones.

This is what has already happened. By changing the gameplay like this, removing key features, has caused a lot of people to either want to continue playing TFC, or moving to TF2. This goes to show that to some people, grenades are not as important as bhopping.

Originally Posted by Scuzzy

Success

So what is success? At least one full server you can join ever night? Enough players you can play with so you can league play? If you want more players, gearing the game to skilled veterans and league players is not a direction to go in. Leagues are not created because a game is made easier to play. Leagues are formed because the game appeals to enough people that a small minority of that play group decides they want to intensely compete and be recognized for it.

The BEST way you're going to get more players in this game is to level the playing field between the skilled veteran and the newbie. No one should have been able to dominate other players on day one of the games release. It should have started with a level playing field and slowly the pack would separate.

Think it over.

Scuzzy

No, this game should cater to the hardcore gamer, not the casual gamer. Why? Because it's competitive, and creates a reason for people to play it instead of the same monotonous things over and over, and that's where TF2 fails horribly. Why try to compete with TF2 when they are doing so well, when we can go our own direction, appealing this game to the people who know and love it's style from TFC?

[greenday5494]

you know. I agree. We could continue the noobs act for a little bit, but, we need to cater to what people like this game; the hardcore dudes.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

You obviously haven't seen the tens of thousands of people that flock the TF2 group... FF is not a competitor of TF2 by a long shot. We need to not worry about what direction TF2 goes to attract people and focus on what attracts users to TFC/FF.

I think by competitor, Scuzzy means that TF2 steals people that would normally have been playing FF. Without TF2, FF would be thriving. Therefore, it has an impact on the playerbase of FF. Therefore, it is a competitor.

Originally Posted by KubeDawg

No, this game should cater to the hardcore gamer, not the casual gamer. Why? Because it's competitive, and creates a reason for people to play it instead of the same monotonous things over and over, and that's where TF2 fails horribly. Why try to compete with TF2 when they are doing so well, when we can go our own direction, appealing this game to the people who know and love it's style from TFC?

I agree. I think the ability to appeal to the casual gamer has long since gone out the window. If it didn't happen on release, it is now going to be incredibly difficult to get a fresh new batch of 2000 hopefuls to try the game (without a time machine). In my opinion, as I have stated 10,000 times before, releasing FF without a training mode was like jumping out of a plane without a parachute, and no way of obtaining one. Therefore, I think the training mode should still be priority number 1, but also introduce some new advanced techniques that would bring TFC players over to FF (faster bhop, new class abilities, some semi-drastic positive change). If the occasional new player shows up, the training mode is there. If it is a long-time TFC player, the new techniques are there. It's a (semi) win-win.

[KubeDawg]

Originally Posted by squeek.

I think by competitor, Scuzzy means that TF2 steals people that would normally have been playing FF. Without TF2, FF would be thriving. Therefore, it has an impact on the playerbase of FF. Therefore, it is a competitor.

Ahh I see, but it's not like Valve is holding guns to their heads and makin em play, so while TF2 might be considered a competitor in that respect, I still think we should focus on our own gameplan.

Originally Posted by squeek.

I agree. I think the ability to appeal to the casual gamer has long since gone out the window. If it didn't happen on release, it is now going to be incredibly difficult to get a fresh new batch of 2000 hopefuls to try the game (without a time machine). In my opinion, as I have stated 10,000 times before, releasing FF without a training mode was like jumping out of a plane without a parachute, and no way of obtaining one. Therefore, I think the training mode should still be priority number 1, but also introduce some new advanced techniques that would bring TFC players over to FF (faster bhop, new class abilities, some semi-drastic positive change). If the occasional new player shows up, the training mode is there. If it is a long-time TFC player, the new techniques are there. It's a (semi) win-win.

Training mode would be useful, because I personally learn by DOING, but I know a lot of people learn by first watching videos to see how the game is played. Appeal gamers with high quality media, then blast em with the training mode to get them used to the gameplay style.

[greenday5494]

yes, but even i didnt learn by DOING. In TFC, i had NO idea whatsoever how to play Spy. Then, ihmhi showed me how to play it. Helped a crapton. People have been playing TF games for a while, and they are WAY up on the chain, already know how to play, while newbies have no idea. They are way down there, at the bottom of the TF chain. If we have a training mode (i agree with squeek on this one), it would help them at least get to the middle of the chain, so we dont get newbies that are almost totally lost, confused, and getting pwned. that turns people away. We need a training mode.

[Scuzzy]

Originally Posted by squeek.

I think by competitor, Scuzzy means that TF2 steals people that would normally have been playing FF. Without TF2, FF would be thriving. Therefore, it has an impact on the playerbase of FF. Therefore, it is a competitor.

This is pretty much my point, yes. The stats I showed were FF people, not originally TF2 people. OUR playerbase is flocking to TF2, so it is a competing game. Should we try to compete with it directly? No, I don't think that's possible, but to deny it's impact on FF is what I was describing as foolish.

Kube,

TFC did not attract hard core gamers in it's onset. Those people learned their skills over time. The same could be done with FF. By ignoring the newbs and moving straight to change the game for only those that are hard-core will eliminate any possibility of growing the playerbase. Think of it this way:

Let's assume that there are 1000 people that are potential FF customers. If we market the game and get all 1000 of them to play, 50 of them are hard core gamers. Only 20% or so continue to play the game after a while, so you have 200 people (5 hard core) playing the game. 10% of those regulars become hard core players.

So in the end you have 5 original hard core players, 10 new hard core players, and 180 or so regular players of the game.

You want to instead market the game to the hard core players... the first 50.... Even if half of them stick around, you're left with only 25 players.

Never, EVER, market to the niche group. Always market to the larger consumer base, and allow clans and leagues to create niche groups within them. If you change this game and market to only hard core gamers you will seriously limit your options and probably continue to lose player marketshare. Please do not make that mistake.

Scuzzy

[Hawk Eye]

I actually thought this thread was a bomb threat at first.

[greenday5494]

i agree scuzzy,

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by greenday5494

you know. I agree. We could continue the noobs act for a little bit, but, we need to cater to what people like this game; the hardcore dudes.

Originally Posted by greenday5494

i agree scuzzy,

You agree with two opposing views! THIS IS MADNESS!

[Johnny Mullet]

TF2 is a direct competitor to FF and I play more TF2 myself lately I admit. It's all about really bad timing on the release of this game. That was just fuckin stupid in my opinion.

I am a Quake Fortress gamer and prefer the faster pace of Q3F/ETF compared to TFC but I have to admit that FF is not all that slow in comparison. It is actually a "balanced control" compared to the total carnage of ETF with uncapped Bhop and speeds etc.

I also like the idea of having some "special" weapons right in the weapon slot to make it easier for new players compared to ETF where a default key was not bound and trying to teach a n00b what a freakin "console" is almost impossible.

All this game really needs now is some DEV support and some kind of major advertising through a bigger company like Valve or something to get this great game more of a player base.

[4est]

Ok, I may be somewhat overstepping my bounds here, but I'm going to say ff_2fort is in the hands of Shadow.

He's got the skillz and the motivation.

Let us know if you need anything Shadow

[shadow]

Originally Posted by 4est

Ok, I may be somewhat overstepping my bounds here, but I'm going to say ff_2fort is in the hands of Shadow.

He's got the skillz and the motivation.

Let us know if you need anything Shadow

yeah could you get me a drink?

[GeoKill----->]

You are going to get all the drinks you want

[fireb0rn]

A lot of the ideas here in my opinion are headed in a completely wrong direction. In respects to the Team Fortress series, especially since TFC and even moreso now thanks to the introduction of TF2, the novice player has continually been given more and more of an edge. The game being catered or easier for newer players will, almost all of you believe, attract new players to the game. I disagree here.

Before I talk about the audience in which FF should be targeting, I'll talk about TF2 first and which audience it targets. If FF is indeed competing against TF2 in terms of playerbase, then it's important to understand both playerbases thoroughly.

Team Fortress 2, as a game, succeeds primarily because of its appeal to newer or novice gamers. This much is obvious and I don't think requires much proof -- the removal of bunnyhopping, or almost any speed gains of any kind, critical shots, invincibility, etc all lead directly to the idea that it's catered towards newer players. They do this perfectly, too. It's a game that has gameplay not bogged down enough to be unenjoyable for the newer player, but just enough so that almost any new player can at least occasionally defeat the regular player with a bit of practice and luck. All this being said, I think that I can safely conclude that Team Fortress 2 is a game that's more made for the casual or novice player.

That also being said, Team Fortress 2 has absolutely no appeal to the competitive TF gamer. Things like the critical shot, ubercharge etc work to ensure this. The game retains none of the aspects of previous Team Fortress games that all the serious fans of the series have come to enjoy. It is not a fast-paced game as is every other game in the series -- it is a purposefully slow-paced game where the ability to get a critical shot or the ability to go invincible completely undermines any likelihood that skill existed within it in the first place. It's safe for me to also conclude here that Team Fortress 2 is not a game that's designed for the competitive player.

Now that I've established which kind of gamer plays TF2 -- the player which is both not competitive and casual or novice -- I'm going to look at which players the game has actually attracted. There are two people who now play TF2: those who played TFC previously and are looking to get back into it; then those people who bought Orange Box and are now very likely playing a TF game for their first time.

On the subject of those people who bought Orange Box without any real knowledge of what the TF series is -- there will people who either like or dislike the game. This subject is hopeless because those who don't like TF2 will likely end up condemning all TF games; and those who like TF2 will likely end up condemning other TF games as TF2 will be, by other TF2 players, superior.

On the subject of those who played TFC previously and are looking to get back into it we have the idea of those who are competitive players and those who are more novice or casual. The casual players will tend to head directly towards TF2. As I stated earlier, TF2 is a game that appeals to more casual or novice players. The more competitive players of TFC have two options (obviously, apart from quitting): that is, to stay in TFC (or QWTF, ETC, Q3F, etc) or to join FF. The problem here is that the competitive player is usually more attracted to TFC because FF gimps such core elements as bunnyhopping.

Let's look at the issue of bunnyhopping in FF for a moment. I think that we can all agree that bunnyhopping is an issue. For novice players, bunnyhopping is deemed unfair because they cannot do it -- these players often ask for the complete removal of bunnyhopping. For competitive players, bunnyhopping is deemed completely fair because they can do it -- these players often ask for the removal or raising of the bunnyhop cap.

The problem here is that in FF, bunnyhopping exists enough to scare away the newcomer, but not enough to satisfy the competitive player. The population growth of the mod then becomes stagnant, at best. The problem with FF is that in this sense there is absolutely no appeal to the game.

I can tell you this because I made an honest effort to enjoy FF. The clan that I'm in made a server for it. They all tried it out. They didn't like it. And I asked them why they didn't like it -- it's simply because of the fact that there's bunnyhopping. Then I asked myself why I didn't like it -- it's simply because there is not enough bunnyhopping. That's the difference between the casual and the competitive player.

You know what my clan did? They went directly to TF2. And so did everyone else that I knew who played TFC; the only exception are those who stayed.

A lot of you keep saying that the game should be made to appeal to the novice or casual player. I hate to say this but it's already too late for that. TF2 has already taken complete control of the novice or casual players. The people playing TFC now aren't casual players -- they are largely the competitive ones -- all the casual players have already left to TF2. The best you guys can hope for is you all to massively advertise FF, then obtain players who have not yet played, or are somehow convinced that TF2 is not as good a game as however many thousand people who play it already believe. This would be an extremely unlikely occurrence and should not be relied upon. FF at this point cannot appeal to the casual gamer -- TF2 has already taken all the casual players from TFC, and I don't think it's a good idea to hope to gather a community that somehow appears from thin-air simply by advertising. It's possible but unlikely with the fundamental problems imo that exist within FF.

The only audience which FF can target now is the competitive gamers. I honestly don't think you guys have a choice.

Sorry if this rant was a bit unorganized. I know that not everything I said was completely true. I think that the entire project of FF is a great and I appreciate the amount of work put into it. But I don't think that FF will ever survive trying to appeal to the novice gamers when TF2 has that already completely taken care of. I don't think that the current form in which bunnyhopping exists in FF is enough to appeal to the majority of the hardcore gamers, either.

If FF really desires to succeed, I think that this issue should be addressed and FF should truly choose whether it's a game for the novice or the competitive player. You aren't guaranteed any amount of players either way, but I think that the largest playerbase and the better game can be created by catering to the competitive crowd.

Another post I made that's somewhat of a tldr version of what I just said here:

I'm not talking about the release date of FF when I'm talking about FF trying to compete with TF2. what I'm talking about is the attempt to tone down things such as bunnyhopping, strafejumping, wallstrafing, etc so that the game is more accessible to the regular gamer.

The reason why they capped the bunnyhop speed is related with the speed which downtrimps provided you with; but ultimately it is capped because the speed which downtrimps provide you with combined with the TFC, QWTF or ETF bunnyhop is too much for the novice player. Here's some proof:

I know I'm only quoting one post, but so far as I've seen this is the general idea that the FF community has agreed upon.

Saying that it doesn't offer ridiculous advantages essentially means exactly what I stated before -- it's toned down for the novice player. This advantage can only exist when speaking in comparison between the competitive and the novice player. If all competitive players already know and understand how to bunnyhop, then there is no distinct advantage. For the competitive players uncapped bunnyhopping is simply another gaming element which adds to how fast-paced and fun the game is -- it cannot simply be said to be an advantage or disadvantage. This person's statement essentially proves that the reason for the lowering of the bunnyhopping cap is for the purpose of evening out levels of skill, and not for the purpose of retaining any gameplay depth which, by competitive gamers, the series was prized for.

It proves that the game is catered towards novice players; and, as I said before, it's in this way that it attempts to compete against TF2. This game cannot compete in this manner against TF2 because of the fact that TF2 is not only already a very popular game, but it's infinitely better at appealing to newer players. The problem is that FF wants to appeal to both newer players and competitive players which is, at this point, absolutely not possible.

Competitive players will stay wherever bunnyhopping isn't capped to low amounts. It's largely because of bunnyhopping that TF games work so well in competitive play. The removal (I know it's not literally removed) of one of the most primary features of a game can be (very) easily justified by any FF player, after all, you can still downtrimp... but I don't think that by doing so you'll earn yourself the number of respectable players a project such as FF would normally deserve.

Regular or non-competitive players will head directly into TF2. It is designed to be attractive purely to those who bought TFC and played it casually, but not enough to realize or enjoy the fact that it's designed with bunnyhopping in mind. Or there's the people who just don't prefer the faster-paced game, which is perfectly fine. But generally, they profited simply by taking bunnyhopping out of the game -- a change the casual player will enjoy. In FF, bunnyhopping still exists; obviously to a lesser extent but just enough so that the casual player will turn away and decide not to play the game.

FF doesn't appeal to either the competitive or the casual gamer for the reasons I just mentioned. There are people who still support it, and I agree with the concept of FF in that it's a game created for TF fans when the TF2 launch was assumedly never going to happen. In my opinion FF was a good release but if the developers want to make a successful game with a strong playerbase then they need to begin to make obvious appeals to the competitive gamers. Otherwise I find it likely the FF playerbase will continue to shrink till the project dies.

Again, sorry for how unorganized this all is. I just finished an exam earlier and my mind is all boggled. lol

If you disagree with me that's fine. You guys should do what you think is best for the game and the community... I just thought that I would share my opinion as a somewhat long-term fan of the TF games and hopefully you guys can benefit from it. If you guys think you can continue on the way you're going and the advertising is working then by all means do it. But you should consider the reinstitution of bunnyhopping and other such things in order to cater to the competitive gamer, as I believe that's the best option. Anyways, good luck; this is something that should be thought long and hard about as it will likely determine the future of the game. wow this is a big post. bye bye

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by fireb0rn

A lot of the ideas here in my opinion are headed in a completely wrong direction. ... [A Book]

Hey guy! Read posts!

Originally Posted by squeek.

I agree. I think the ability to appeal to the casual gamer has long since gone out the window. If it didn't happen on release, it is now going to be incredibly difficult to get a fresh new batch of 2000 hopefuls to try the game (without a time machine). In my opinion, as I have stated 10,000 times before, releasing FF without a training mode was like jumping out of a plane without a parachute, and no way of obtaining one. Therefore, I think the training mode should still be priority number 1, but also introduce some new advanced techniques that would bring TFC players over to FF (faster bhop, new class abilities, some semi-drastic positive change). If the occasional new player shows up, the training mode is there. If it is a long-time TFC player, the new techniques are there. It's a (semi) win-win.

[bokko]

I also said this on page 1 and about a month ago in a seperate topic, people have probably been saying this for a while now. Aftershock a member of the dev team wants to take ff in this direction which is essentially what started this topic.

[Credge]

Training levels are needed. In fact, there needs to be a 'training mode' that allows you to click on a certain class that takes you to a level that simulates what it is like to be a class. Have it demonstrate via short video (or fun pictures) exactly what each class should do to get the most out of itself.

For example, have the first thing a pyro has to do be igniting a 'dummy' up to level 3.

Show pictures of the pyro using his flamethrower to boost himself up over obstacles.

Show pictures of the pyro using his rocket launcher to boost himself, then switching to his flamethrower to boost himself up over obstacles.

Also, have obstacles that would mimic every-day situations.

Show the medic and scout concing, demonstrate how and where it should be done, and then have some concing areas. Very basic stuff.

Demonstrate how the HW can keep his gun revved, have some aiming games revolving around this, etc.

Have some mini-missions for the spy, one that has him sabotage an SG, another cloaking by some people, etc. Very basic stuff.

It doesn't have to be anything huge, realistic, or dramatic. Something simple that shows people how to do various things.

[Paft]

Why bother? it already has hint & tips. If people are that thick that they are still totally clueless after 10mins they shouldn't bother.

FF degree course:

You have weapons
Classes have one or two unique weapons & abilities
You can take advantage of gravity and blast force (requires experience)
You are stupid

Well done you completed your degree.


Seriously now, CS doesn't have a training mode and that is a #1 online game.

[squeek.]

Originally Posted by Paft

Why bother? it already has hint & tips. If people are that thick that they are still totally clueless after 10mins they shouldn't bother.

FF degree course:

You have weapons
Classes have one or two unique weapons & abilities
You can take advantage of gravity and blast force (requires experience)
You are stupid

Well done you completed your degree.


Seriously now, CS doesn't have a training mode and that is a #1 online game.

This is the stance of the competitive gamer. I agree, because I am drawn to the competitive side of any game and am motivated to learn without the help of others. But, I also know that in order for a game to get a public playerbase, it needs to be accessible. Counter-strike doesn't need a training mode because it only borrows one out of the 4 requirements for a FF degree. A CS degree requires this one piece of knowledge:

You have weapons

That is all. Fortress-Forever has much, much deeper gameplay and requires much, much more training. A simple hands-on training mode to teach the basic concepts of bunnyhopping, concing, rocket-jumping, rampsliding, trimping, etc. would help people get into the game without having to scream, in the first couple minutes, "HOW CAN I FLY?" The hint feature is great, but it doesn't teach the mechanics of fundamental movement abilities, and therefore makes the game unmarketable to a wider audience.

So, for the 10,001st time:

Let's implement a training mode. Nowish would be preferable.


EDIT:

Originally Posted by Credge

Training levels are needed. In fact, there needs to be a 'training mode' that allows you to click on a certain class that takes you to a level that simulates what it is like to be a class. Have it demonstrate via short video (or fun pictures) exactly what each class should do to get the most out of itself.

For example, have the first thing a pyro has to do be igniting a 'dummy' up to level 3.

Show pictures of the pyro using his flamethrower to boost himself up over obstacles.

Show pictures of the pyro using his rocket launcher to boost himself, then switching to his flamethrower to boost himself up over obstacles.

Also, have obstacles that would mimic every-day situations.

Show the medic and scout concing, demonstrate how and where it should be done, and then have some concing areas. Very basic stuff.

Demonstrate how the HW can keep his gun revved, have some aiming games revolving around this, etc.

Have some mini-missions for the spy, one that has him sabotage an SG, another cloaking by some people, etc. Very basic stuff.

It doesn't have to be anything huge, realistic, or dramatic. Something simple that shows people how to do various things.

That is and has been in the works for a while, it just needs to be completed and implemented.

[Paft]

I know. Just a bit fed up of this help the inexperienced. These inexperience chaps are excessively stupid or don't have patience or 10 years old that's all, forget 'em. Only joking.