TF2, FF, Speed, and Marketing

Scuzzy · 07-17-2007, 11:01 AM

I don't want to get into a huge discussion over which game will be better. This is an offshoot of a discussion going on behind the scenes in the [o-t] member forums that I'd like some input on.

In the past, there were radio stations that would take songs and play them "just a little bit faster". This, for whatever reason, made people like that particular station better because the other stations playing of the records felt "slower" and therefore "worse", it's a psychological thing.

With FF and TF2, I am curious to know what you think, considering the above. Let's say TF2 were to be released first, the devs looked at it and the speed of each class, and then adjusted their own classes speed to be "just a bit faster". Do you think it would have the same effect? Many people here are strong advocates of bhopping and believe the game to be far to slow without it... Do you think this old marketing technique could be used to FF's advantage?

Scuzzy

GhOsT · 07-17-2007, 11:12 AM

Probably not. The faster you make the classes the more difficult it'll be for new players. You'll probably grab more of the old school players though.

By the looks of it the speed of the classes in the TF2 videos we have seen seem to be fairly close to normal.

TurboWolf · 07-17-2007, 12:15 PM

Not to talk about all this interpolation stuff. The faster, the buggier.

Jifcuits · 07-17-2007, 12:42 PM

A better way to compare FF to the radio station thing would be if a FF server speeded up the game slightly compared to other servers so people will psychologically think their server is better than the others.

Ihmhi · 07-17-2007, 08:34 PM

Well, FF is hella fast paced as it is...

Etzell · 07-17-2007, 09:19 PM

I'd be shocked if TF2 is anywhere near as fast as FF.

Lost · 07-17-2007, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etzell

I'd be shocked if TF2 is anywhere near as fast as FF.

QFMFT

I use that every time I can. But yah, I'd say that TF2 will actually be slower than TFC, to help with the newb factor.

Scuzzy · 07-17-2007, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ihmhi

Well, FF is hella fast paced as it is...

Concur. I'm just wondering if they'll try to increase their pace to compensate for the lack of grenades/concs.

Etzell · 07-17-2007, 10:24 PM

Aside from naming similarities and the classes, it almost seems like TF2 and FF are so different that comparing them is all but worthless.

Peon · 07-17-2007, 10:50 PM

If no one in TF2 has nades but the Demo, then that means that there will be no Concs, which then means that it would have to be slower. Bunny hopping takes a back seat to Conc jumping in the speed category if you ask me, so FF will have to be doubly fast. I honestly don't think that bunny hopping is that effective of a killing tool either, so noobs will just be dazzled by flag caps is all that will happen. Noobs also get bored with games that are too shallow.

Of course, speed also depends on what class you're playing at the time. If you're a Heavy then for sure your game will be slower.

On the TF2 subject, I think that it is a terrible mistake not to give all the classes nades. It's not really Team Fortress without that quality in it. It will be the only one out of a multitude of TFs to not give every class nades. Huge turn-off.

All that aside, I really think it would be a good idea if FF beat TF2 on releasing. FF needs to have Fortress fans fragging RIGHT NOW...this of course not having been in the cards (and I'm not bitching), it needs to happen ASAP. The Half-Life 2 life cycle is getting to perhaps the mid point, and many killer apps are right around the corner. I'm even thinking about how Crysis Fortress might be, and I know I'm not alone. I can't help, but I can hype...and I have been hyping. I have many friends who eagerly await it's release, and could possibly become distracted. Godspeed.

**squeek.** · 07-17-2007, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Scuzzy

Concur. I'm just wondering if they'll try to increase their pace to compensate for the lack of grenades/concs.

Off topic, but Scuzzy: since it appears you have secured a beta position, what is your opinion of the game? Do you bunnyhop/will your FF server still restrict it? I'm interested in your views on FF gameplay. If you aren't on the beta team... I got hosed.

Ihmhi · 07-17-2007, 11:06 PM

No, he is.

Just an FYI, I can not bunny hop for shit. Total newb in that department, but I am picking it up over time. Definitely not as hard to pick it up as it is in TFC. I am slowly learning. I think that alone would make [o-t] lean more towards allowing it, but of course I can not speak for them.

The great thing about the game (as I have said before) is that it is easy to pick up the skills. You can learn to conc in a few minutes. Drop the nade (hell, HH it now; anyone can HH) and fly through the air.

But just because you can use a conc to boost your speed/height does not mean you will have the skill to air control and land where you want. And then maybe you might land and go right into bunny hopping for a speed boost. Or maybe you would conc again for an additional speed boost to blast past defenders. There is a lot of room for creativity once you pick up the basic skills. (mervaka loathes my newfound love of the Spy Cloak... well, his SG does.) :3

nodnarb · 07-17-2007, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by squeek.

Off topic, but Scuzzy: since it appears you have secured a beta position, what is your opinion of the game? Do you bunnyhop/will your FF server still restrict it? I'm interested in your views on FF gameplay. If you aren't on the beta team... I got hosed.

As an admin of a non-bhop server, I would say 86% chance of us not allowing bunnyhopping. We are a fairly "noob friendly" server, so we will not be allowing envolves such a steep learning curve.

**squeek.** · 07-17-2007, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nodnarb

As an admin of a non-bhop server, I would say 86% chance of us not allowing bunnyhopping. We are a fairly "noob friendly" server, so we will not be allowing envolves such a steep learning curve.

It still involves the steep learning curve? That was mainly my question. Hopefully the tutorial mode is good enough to show new players how to bunnyhop. Shouldn't be too tough; show someone bunnyhopping and show a small arrowkey/wasd keypad and a spacebar/jump button with what buttons are used at what time. Done.

Peon · 07-17-2007, 11:31 PM

Maybe I just can't do it, but it seems that it's damn near impossible to Bhop and shoot accurately. Any time I try to hop sideways for a second it stops working, so I'm assuming that you have to hop forward all the time. Assuming that can only shoot in front of you, and with less accuracy, then there should be less killing by the Bhopping guys. This means that there wouldn't be a lot of killing of noobs, and I would repeat myself unnecassarily by saying this shouldn't piss any noobs off.

Am I wrong on this? I would think that a Sniper Bhopping would be useless for obvious reasons. Throwing nades would likely blow you up since you're going as fast as one. Heavys aren't very accurate...Soldiers might run into their own rockets...An Engy wouldn't want to...hmmmm. As far as I can see this only leaves the flag runners as the Bhoppers, and they only score a lot of points. I can only see a noob getting PO'd if they die constantly. Please fill me in on any info I'm missing.

Coronius · 07-17-2007, 11:48 PM

Well, no. You learn that aswell after awhile. i mean the swing to the side with the mouse thingy to get some speed doesnt have to be done the whole jump and then you have like... it feels like alot of time atleast to shoot. but anyway its much smarter and better to strafe and shit and shoot than it is to go forward snice then people can predict your moves too easily.

**squeek.** · 07-18-2007, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peon

Maybe I just can't do it, but it seems that it's damn near impossible to Bhop and shoot accurately. Any time I try to hop sideways for a second it stops working, so I'm assuming that you have to hop forward all the time. Assuming that can only shoot in front of you, and with less accuracy, then there should be less killing by the Bhopping guys. This means that there wouldn't be a lot of killing of noobs, and I would repeat myself unnecassarily by saying this shouldn't piss any noobs off.

Am I wrong on this? I would think that a Sniper Bhopping would be useless for obvious reasons. Throwing nades would likely blow you up since you're going as fast as one. Heavys aren't very accurate...Soldiers might run into their own rockets...An Engy wouldn't want to...hmmmm. As far as I can see this only leaves the flag runners as the Bhoppers, and they only score a lot of points. I can only see a noob getting PO'd if they die constantly. Please fill me in on any info I'm missing.

As Coronius said, there is not a lot of DMing mid-bhop. It is strictly for moving quickly; usually to avoid dming, or for defenders: chasing someone, getting into position, etc. As for nades... what? That is what priming is for. It is up to you to know when to toss it.

Bunnyhopping is for moving quickly. If you can bhop and DM together successfully, then you are among the elite few that can.

Etzell · 07-18-2007, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nodnarb

As an admin of a non-bhop server, I would say 86% chance of us not allowing bunnyhopping. We are a fairly "noob friendly" server, so we will not be allowing envolves such a steep learning curve.

So your argument against bhop in FF is... that... you don't want people to learn?

**mervaka** · 07-18-2007, 01:34 AM

i think the best counter for bhop FF can offer is the bullet push.

Jetpac · 07-18-2007, 01:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Etzell

Aside from naming similarities and the classes, it almost seems like TF2 and FF are so different that comparing them is all but worthless.

QFT

they are two entirely different games that happen to have the same classes and simlar maps. Game play will be totally different in TF2 to FF.. DIfferent in a good way?.. well we'll wait and see!

07-17-2007, 11:01 AM	#1
Scuzzy The Old Timers Clan D&A Member Retired FF Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Server: 206.217.134.170:27016 Posts Rated Helpful 2 Times	TF2, FF, Speed, and Marketing I don't want to get into a huge discussion over which game will be better. This is an offshoot of a discussion going on behind the scenes in the [o-t] member forums that I'd like some input on. In the past, there were radio stations that would take songs and play them "just a little bit faster". This, for whatever reason, made people like that particular station better because the other stations playing of the records felt "slower" and therefore "worse", it's a psychological thing. With FF and TF2, I am curious to know what you think, considering the above. Let's say TF2 were to be released first, the devs looked at it and the speed of each class, and then adjusted their own classes speed to be "just a bit faster". Do you think it would have the same effect? Many people here are strong advocates of bhopping and believe the game to be far to slow without it... Do you think this old marketing technique could be used to FF's advantage? Scuzzy __________________ "Player Quality, not Quantity, is what we strive for." - The LLama Wrangler "A clan is defined by the nature of it's enemies. - The Llama Wrangler

07-17-2007, 08:34 PM	#5
Ihmhi [AE] 0112 Ihmhi SJB Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Newark, NJ, United States Class/Position: A little bit o' everythin' Gametype: Also a little bit o' everythin' Affiliations: [AE] Asseater, SJB Straight Jacket Brigade Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times	Well, FF is hella fast paced as it is... __________________ Support FF: Anime: The Thread: Reloaded The one and only anime thread on these here forums. Select the pistol, and then, select your horse.

07-17-2007, 10:50 PM	#10
Peon Altitude Junkie D&A Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Class/Position: Agressive Medic or Pyro...as long as I can fly baby! Gametype: CTF Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Faster is better If no one in TF2 has nades but the Demo, then that means that there will be no Concs, which then means that it would have to be slower. Bunny hopping takes a back seat to Conc jumping in the speed category if you ask me, so FF will have to be doubly fast. I honestly don't think that bunny hopping is that effective of a killing tool either, so noobs will just be dazzled by flag caps is all that will happen. Noobs also get bored with games that are too shallow. Of course, speed also depends on what class you're playing at the time. If you're a Heavy then for sure your game will be slower. On the TF2 subject, I think that it is a terrible mistake not to give all the classes nades. It's not really Team Fortress without that quality in it. It will be the only one out of a multitude of TFs to not give every class nades. Huge turn-off. All that aside, I really think it would be a good idea if FF beat TF2 on releasing. FF needs to have Fortress fans fragging RIGHT NOW...this of course not having been in the cards (and I'm not bitching), it needs to happen ASAP. The Half-Life 2 life cycle is getting to perhaps the mid point, and many killer apps are right around the corner. I'm even thinking about how Crysis Fortress might be, and I know I'm not alone. I can't help, but I can hype...and I have been hyping. I have many friends who eagerly await it's release, and could possibly become distracted. Godspeed.

07-17-2007, 11:06 PM	#12
Ihmhi [AE] 0112 Ihmhi SJB Wiki Team Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Newark, NJ, United States Class/Position: A little bit o' everythin' Gametype: Also a little bit o' everythin' Affiliations: [AE] Asseater, SJB Straight Jacket Brigade Posts Rated Helpful 3 Times	No, he is. Just an FYI, I can not bunny hop for shit. Total newb in that department, but I am picking it up over time. Definitely not as hard to pick it up as it is in TFC. I am slowly learning. I think that alone would make [o-t] lean more towards allowing it, but of course I can not speak for them. The great thing about the game (as I have said before) is that it is easy to pick up the skills. You can learn to conc in a few minutes. Drop the nade (hell, HH it now; anyone can HH) and fly through the air. But just because you can use a conc to boost your speed/height does not mean you will have the skill to air control and land where you want. And then maybe you might land and go right into bunny hopping for a speed boost. Or maybe you would conc again for an additional speed boost to blast past defenders. There is a lot of room for creativity once you pick up the basic skills. (mervaka loathes my newfound love of the Spy Cloak... well, his SG does.) :3 __________________ Support FF: Anime: The Thread: Reloaded The one and only anime thread on these here forums. Select the pistol, and then, select your horse.

07-17-2007, 11:31 PM	#15
Peon Altitude Junkie D&A Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Class/Position: Agressive Medic or Pyro...as long as I can fly baby! Gametype: CTF Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Maybe I just stink? Maybe I just can't do it, but it seems that it's damn near impossible to Bhop and shoot accurately. Any time I try to hop sideways for a second it stops working, so I'm assuming that you have to hop forward all the time. Assuming that can only shoot in front of you, and with less accuracy, then there should be less killing by the Bhopping guys. This means that there wouldn't be a lot of killing of noobs, and I would repeat myself unnecassarily by saying this shouldn't piss any noobs off. Am I wrong on this? I would think that a Sniper Bhopping would be useless for obvious reasons. Throwing nades would likely blow you up since you're going as fast as one. Heavys aren't very accurate...Soldiers might run into their own rockets...An Engy wouldn't want to...hmmmm. As far as I can see this only leaves the flag runners as the Bhoppers, and they only score a lot of points. I can only see a noob getting PO'd if they die constantly. Please fill me in on any info I'm missing.

07-17-2007, 11:12 AM	#2
GhOsT Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Probably not. The faster you make the classes the more difficult it'll be for new players. You'll probably grab more of the old school players though. By the looks of it the speed of the classes in the TF2 videos we have seen seem to be fairly close to normal.

07-17-2007, 12:15 PM	#3
TurboWolf Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Spain Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Not to talk about all this interpolation stuff. The faster, the buggier.

07-17-2007, 12:42 PM	#4
Jifcuits Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	A better way to compare FF to the radio station thing would be if a FF server speeded up the game slightly compared to other servers so people will psychologically think their server is better than the others.

07-17-2007, 09:19 PM	#6
Etzell D&A Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	I'd be shocked if TF2 is anywhere near as fast as FF.

07-17-2007, 10:24 PM	#9
Etzell D&A Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts Rated Helpful 0 Times	Aside from naming similarities and the classes, it almost seems like TF2 and FF are so different that comparing them is all but worthless.

07-17-2007, 11:48 PM	#16
Coronius Alcoholic Artist Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Sweden Posts Rated Helpful 2 Times	Well, no. You learn that aswell after awhile. i mean the swing to the side with the mouse thingy to get some speed doesnt have to be done the whole jump and then you have like... it feels like alot of time atleast to shoot. but anyway its much smarter and better to strafe and shit and shoot than it is to go forward snice then people can predict your moves too easily.

07-18-2007, 01:34 AM	#19
mervaka A Very Sound Guy! Fortress Forever Staff Join Date: May 2005 Location: UK Posts Rated Helpful 15 Times	i think the best counter for bhop FF can offer is the bullet push. __________________ Support FF:

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