-TPF-

[o_e-dog-tpf-]

I almost think, the biggest problem with TPF is the tag. Any tag is succeptable to exploitation. And the more respect you get, the more it WILL be exploited. Back when TPF was founded, there weren't the same methods available for finding people in games like there are now. So the tag was more of a neccessity than it is now. While, I think the tag is a major part of our identity, I also think it's a major part of our negative image. If there is no tag to exploit, then joe q smacktard, can't run around causing a problem with a TPF name. It would be a shame to drop the tag because it is a great way of spreading the word. Unfortunately it seems, there is almost as much negative words being spread as good. Like Saintrancid said... it's a double edge sword.

What defines a TPF member, is not the tag... It is the person. And the people we have are great team-players, and great people in general. Sometimes I just stop & marvel at how many awesome people I've gotten to know through TPF. It's good to know that even with all the mess that the anonymous internet brings out in people, that there are still some people who care.

*edit*
I'd also like to add that the bickering between Nukem & I is done. We've talked a bit, and have come to an understanding I think. He's a good guy with good intentions, he just came at us with the wrong approach.

[o_billdoor]

I think a big part of the problem was that when bunnyhopping and chasing were widely debated issues (at least on planetfortress) a lot of the TPF members started trying to represent TPF as a "non-chasing" or even "non-bunnyhopping" organisation. These things weren't related to teamplay at all (though chasing in the wrong circumstances is obviously bad for your team, the overall concept of chasing cannot be dismissed as a non-team-oriented tactic) and for members to talk about TPF being "against chasing" or whatever was kind of idiotic. Chasing may not be a nice way to win games, but it is often good teamplay, so when TPF tried to encourage "honourable" play at the expense of "teamplay" I think a lot of people were confused and put off.

[o_e-dog-tpf-]

I think you're referring to Chasing in clan matches which could be seen as a tactic.... Chasing in a pub though (which was TPF's domain of influence), was RARELY used for the benifit of the team. As for Bunny-hopping, I can't see any circumstances where bunny-hopping can be considered a valid tactic. It was an exploit, which caused only greif for those on the receiving end of it.

As long as I've known of it, TPF has been about Teamplay AND Fairplay. I don't think there was ever any confusion about that. There HAS to be more to it than than what you're suggesting. If people started disliking TPF JUST because we weren't a "win at all costs" organisation, then that's just very sad.

[o_crazy carl]

Originally Posted by Thursday

Did you bother to read what me and E-Dog-TPF- have been discussing about the possibility of a TPF/FF relationship similar to the UWE/NS constellation and icon program? You will see its a possibility to control who is "in" TPF

I've read this whole thread. Did you get the point of my post? I don't think it's a good idea to run tpf in this way. As soon as you institutionalise a philosophy, that philosophy begins to be corrupted and/or forgotten. If tpf tries to police its members in this way, I may just forego tpf altogether and let my attitude and actions speak for themselves.

I like the icon idea, but let the list be completely on the client's side. I'd like to decide for myself who is a trusted player or not, instead of trusting some questionable list handed down from on high.

[o__thursday_]

Originally Posted by crazy carl

I've read this whole thread. Did you get the point of my post? I don't think it's a good idea to run tpf in this way. As soon as you institutionalise a philosophy, that philosophy begins to be corrupted and/or forgotten. If tpf tries to police its members in this way, I may just forego tpf altogether and let my attitude and actions speak for themselves.

I like the icon idea, but let the list be completely on the client's side. I'd like to decide for myself who is a trusted player or not, instead of trusting some questionable list handed down from on high.

The client side thing would be just like using a tag, any old "smacktard" (to put it in E-Dogs words hehe) could still use it then. The icon wouldn't just represent the fact you are a well behaved player, but the fact you are also involved with the FF community in one way or the other. It would also allow the implementation of a proper TPF signup, so naughty players are shamed by SteamID and can not change their name and try to signup and cause corruption again.

Its like policing, but leaves the terrorists no exploits :P

If TPF/FF do go ahead with the mini-project, it would be nice to for me to be informed or involved, if not the community as a whole.

[o_e-dog-tpf-]

Originally Posted by Thursday

"smacktard" (to put it in E-Dogs words hehe)

LOL... that word comes from the Battlefield 1942/Vietnam community. For some reason, HL/TFC/CS/whatever.... seems to use Llama, and Battlefield uses, Smacktard. It's funny how what seems commonplace to one person, sounds silly to others..

Whatever happens (if anything) with this mini-project.. I will surely keep you informed. I appreciate your guidance with this stuff.

I think you missed Carl's point though. He wants to make is own judgment of a person rather than basing an opinon on what we/TPF/AnybodyElse deems as teamplay..

[o__thursday_]

Originally Posted by E-dog-TPF-

LOL... that word comes from the Battlefield 1942/Vietnam community. For some reason, HL/TFC/CS/whatever.... seems to use Llama, and Battlefield uses, Smacktard. It's funny how what seems commonplace to one person, sounds silly to others..

Whatever happens (if anything) with this mini-project.. I will surely keep you informed. I appreciate your guidance with this stuff.

I think you missed Carl's point though. He wants to make is own judgment of a person rather than basing an opinon on what we/TPF/AnybodyElse deems as teamplay..

If I'm reading this right, Carl like you said TPF doesn't come across as a guild for you, correct? Well this would become more "guild" like, because a guild restricts it's members, where as TPF is currently a "stick the tag on thing".

And the "make your own judgement thing", if the icon system went ahead, it doesn't stop you from having your own opinion and complaining about a member when they're "being a smacktard".

PS: I get the giggles saying smacktard lol, so I'm using it more often now.

[o_billdoor]

Originally Posted by E-dog-TPF-

I think you're referring to Chasing in clan matches which could be seen as a tactic.... Chasing in a pub though (which was TPF's domain of influence), was RARELY used for the benifit of the team. As for Bunny-hopping, I can't see any circumstances where bunny-hopping can be considered a valid tactic. It was an exploit, which caused only greif for those on the receiving end of it.

As long as I've known of it, TPF has been about Teamplay AND Fairplay. I don't think there was ever any confusion about that. There HAS to be more to it than than what you're suggesting. If people started disliking TPF JUST because we weren't a "win at all costs" organisation, then that's just very sad.

Chasing on pubs isn't usually worthwhile... but even on pubs it's an effective tactic if you're winning on a map like rock2 or badlands. I don't think chasing is a problem unless it involves excessive defense -- though on a public server this is often the case.

As for bunnyhopping, the problem was that at the time there was a huge split in the parts of the community that liked it and those that disliked it. It was in no way a win at all costs thing; some people just preferred the game with bunnyhopping, and found it more fun than without. The fact that most people in TPF took a stance that it was an "illegal" tactic just drove a wedge between them and the rest of the community, and the TPF members that actually liked bunnyhopping were ridiculed by clan players for being in TPF. In fact, it doesn't explicity involve TPF, but in part it was the rigid banning of any explanation of bunnyhopping on the planetfortress forums that drove most of the people there away. Even after Valve implemented the bunnyhop cap, a lot of people in TPF and on planetfortress maintained that it was cheating.

TPF started as an organisation that supported teamplay on public servers. This is fine. Everyone can agree on what is good teamplay, because it's just a logical deduction. Most people can even agree on a lot of the "honour" things such as not TKing (in most circumstances) and not fighting with teammates for a defensive position. The problem was that a lot of people in TPF used TPF as a way to take a stance on things that the community as a whole was split on.

Hopefully this will not be an issue in FF, since when any unintentional features are discovered we can make an announcement on whether we think they're good for the game or not. It seems to me that many people will will dismiss something on the grounds that it's an exploit or "not intented by developers" without actually considering and weighing up the net effect on the game and whether it makes it more fun or less fun to play. Now with old bunnyhopping, and with a good deal of hindsight, a lot of people agree that it wasn't in the best interests of the game, but that new bunnyhopping is. With ramp sliding, pretty much everyone agrees that it's adding something to the game, despite being the result of a quirk in the movement code. With chop hopping, a lot of people still hated it just because it was an exploit, without considering the net effect on the game -- though even amongst those that did, opinion was divided. As developers, we can hopefully listen to the community and perform our own tests, legitimizing "exploits" when we feel they improve the game and removing them when we feel they are detrimental

[o__thursday_]

As once said "if its not broke, don't fix it". Thats Valves view on bunnyhopping, I don't see why people can't accept it myself. I hate it, but I accept it lol. Its like spawn spamming/camping, I hate it, but its not illegal if there is nothing stopping you from doing it.

[o_billdoor]

By the way so no one gets the wrong idea, I used to wear the TPF tag. I made a lot of good friends in TPF (and now AMP, I guess...), and played on TPF servers for the longest time. These are just the things that seemed to be happening when everyone seemed to be abandoning TPF and, to a lesser extent, planetfortess.

[o_e-dog-tpf-]

Chasing:
I can only see chasing as an effective tactic if your team is winning & trying to hold onto a lead. In that case, I think it's ok. There is little benifit to chasing if you think about it. If you kill him, he respawns between you & the flag and you'll likely have to face him a second time. You'll also have less ammo (and perhaps, health) at your disposal. If he kills you, then you're back where you started (which in actuallity, probably helps the team more than killing him). The best you can do is what I call "pot shotting", and I fully support this tactic. That is to take a few shots as you are passing by, in the hopes that you'll take a bit of health off of him, and soften him up for your team's defense. This doesn't really get in the way of your offensive goals that much, but it definately does for your enemy.

B-Hopping:
If something is not ment to be in the game, The knowledge of how to use it, or how to accomplish it is not readilly available to the people new to the game, or the casual players. If somebody found a glitch in a map and exploited it where they could stand completely hidden from others behind a wall and shoot at people through the wall, I'm sure you'd agree with me that that is cheating. That is sort of how I see B-hopping. Definately not to such a harsh degree, but none the less I believe it's a form of cheating. Regardless of how TPF viewed it though, I think in general the community had more people opposed to this than for it. So I doubt that this issue by itsself turned very many people off of TPF. (Although it probably turned away some, it likely attracted some as well).

[o_antonbear]

i dont know about you but in my neck of the woods bunny hopping was the norm, i couldnt do it but i found ways to kill people that were, simple as. and pot shotting was a big no no and only used by llama's and smacktards alike and if anyone was to do it they would get hurled abuse at until they wept so much there tears got into there computer which exploded causing an electrcal fire that burnt down there house and they died. obviously after the first couple of incidents of this happening people stopped pot shotting and the world was saved once more.

[o_nukemseviltwinripm2shreds]

Originally Posted by crazy carl

I don't think it's a good idea to run tpf in this way. As soon as you institutionalise a philosophy, that philosophy begins to be corrupted and/or forgotten. If tpf tries to police its members in this way, I may just forego tpf altogether and let my attitude and actions speak for themselves.

Originally Posted by crazy carl

I think calling TPF a guild is a big mistake. As has been discussed, there are no real controls in place to keep someone from claiming to be "in" TPF.

I disagree, it just takes a great deal of effort. Effort I'd like to see TPF put forth and why my posting was misperceived earlier in this thread. Not fulproof but better than nothing, proof is in .id's evolved methods. Have a current roster on a server that projects to a webpage and as many servers as possible for verification and tag protection.

Originally Posted by crazy carl

Once TPF took on a high profile, it became only a target to be knocked down by the community at large.

Boy how I agree, relate and can 100% verify. Once .id got noticed a couple of years ago, all members were condemned as noobs. Sad what some say & do to feel superior to others.

[o_e-dog-tpf-]

Wow! I'm awe-struck!
If that was the norm, then why did nobody ever get mad at me about it. I used to do that, and I played on a wide variety of servers both with & without TPF members for probably 2 years. Maybe I stopped playing before it became an issue? I really don't know how I've never heard of this.

*edit, to clarify.. this is in response to Anton's comment, not Nukem's*

[o_thedarkone]

Originally Posted by AntonBear

and pot shotting was a big no no and only used by llama's and smacktards alike and [...]

?

[o_silver]

personal experience i think

[o_rebo]

I think this represents how fragmented the TFC community has become unfortunately it resulted in misunderstandings from and about every different sect. Hopefully with FF we can heal these differences, and whislt keeping those different play styles at least ensure players are kept informed.

[o_vanquish]

TPF has always been more of an ideal than guild or organization. It's the same as any guild or clan in the sense of the tag, and that's about it. It's quite easy to tell who a 'true' tpfer is, as actions speak louder than words (or in this case tags). There's nothing stopping me from slapping on an XD tag, just like there's nothing stopping anyone from slapping on a TPF tag. But it's still just as easy to tell if someone isn't really in XD if they suck at soldier, just like it's easy to tell if someone isn't a true TPFer by their composure, actions, and attitude.

See someone that isn't a true TPFer? Ask em to remove the tag or try to educate them of our ideals, otherwise ignore them and take solice in the fact that you know they're a fraud. There really is little else we can do.

I never agreed with the whole application to join, TPF shouldn't be bound by one person's (or even a group of persons' in the case of this "High Council") ideals. When TPF changed to this, it lost it's soul in my opinion. But that is of course just MY opinion.

[o_silver]

anyways, with what we were talkin about before with an official member list with little pictures and w/e.

i think with that it would help keep the community tighter. people would want a little image and so be active in th community. more people that believe in teamplay would speakout to show their support of it. would also let people know that there r still developers and people that r helping to make the game out there and all that crap

[o__thursday_]

Originally Posted by Vanquish

See someone that isn't a true TPFer? Ask em to remove the tag or try to educate them of our ideals, otherwise ignore them and take solice in the fact that you know they're a fraud. There really is little else we can do.

There is, read the last few pages, I 'stole' the idea from the NS mod for the FF team & TPF to incorporate and use as they can.

Its actually quite a useful concept, as the method could be used to ban someone's steam ID from any of the modifications servers. I never thought about that before, probably other ideas can come of that aswell.