Idea on How to Keep New Players

oaties · 07-02-2011, 06:32 PM

From what I've noticed, the normal course of a new player is:

1. Join a ctf game.
2. Either go on blu and defend or go on red and cap.
3. Get bored.
4. Try defending, get destroyed by bhopping and concing.

People need to realize that ctf is not a good pub gamemode in FF and that AvD is much better for pubs.

In AvD, every class is useful in some way and the map is straightforward: Take the flag to the capture point. It would allow new players to adapt to fortress-forever while still being useful.

I think that there should be a server that runs ONLY AvD maps such as dustbowl, ksour, avanti, genesis, palermo, vertigo etc. This server should be made as beginner friendly as possible.

AfterShock · 07-02-2011, 06:39 PM

Well yeah, this is a massive problem. Trouble is, AvD doesnt utilise concs and all the fun movement stuff that attracts players to CTF (AvD is largely a DM gamemode). We tried for a while to invent a gamemode which used concs and fun movement skills of CTF and the natural team based progression of AvD but we didn't really get it right.

I still think theres a gap which can be filled with a gamemode which bridges the gap, in particular something similar to payload whereby attackers can conc towards the payload and move it forwards by getting near to it, which avoids 1 guy simply capping on his own, and also allows DM based attackers to push forwards and be useful. Unfortunately no-one finished any payload maps.

oaties · 07-02-2011, 08:22 PM

I disagree. Offense on AvD is all about jumping the flag. AvD maps would allow players to be effective on defense and offense no matter their skill level. If a new player sees a good player jump the flag they will probably wonder "how do I do that?". It still makes people want to learn all the movement skills while still being fun INITIALLY.

hlstriker · 07-02-2011, 09:46 PM

It's not so much CTF that turns players off, it's CTF with nuisances; such as security, overly long battlements, and confusing routes. Good pub CTF maps would be 2fort and well.

Another CTF map with potential would be crossover, but the FF version has a battlements that isn't fun. The reason it's not fun is because there are 4 routes through the battlements. One path on each side, the water, and the top route. CTF maps should ALWAYS have 2 routes through the battlements, and 2 routes only. Then no more than 2 routes while inside a base to get to the enemy flag.

Look at the successful TFC pub server CTF maps for example: 2fort, well, crossover, casbah, and badlands. Each map had 2 routes through the battlements, then 2 routes in the bases themselves. The best thing about these maps is there were no nuisances, except badlands with a battlements a bit too long.

I do agree with oaties though with his AvD points. You don't want to force the movement down the new players throats. Let them ease into it in fun pub style maps where they don't have to play like it's a damn pickup game.

In my opinion the best pub maps are AvD, pub CTF, and avanti style maps (w/e that is).

Oh and also, directly ported maps from TFC are huge turn off to almost all new players, especially if they use the exact TFC textures. They just look like crap in this day and age, new players don't want that.

episkopos · 07-02-2011, 09:53 PM

You make some very good points, oaties.

Imho, the worst map for pubs is dropdown. It has an incredibly confusing layout.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hlstriker

In my opinion the best pub maps are AvD, pub CTF, and avanti style maps (w/e that is)..

Avanti is IvD.

I've got the impression that some TF2 players are confused by avanti (there's a TF2 remake of it), because they strongly associate AvD with cz2-like control points.

chilledsanity · 07-02-2011, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hlstriker

It's not so much CTF that turns players off, it's CTF with nuisances; such as security, overly long battlements, and confusing routes. Good pub CTF maps would be 2fort and well.

Another CTF map with potential would be crossover, but the FF version has a battlements that isn't fun. The reason it's not fun is because there are 4 routes through the battlements. One path on each side, the water, and the top route. CTF maps should ALWAYS have 2 routes through the battlements, and 2 routes only. Then no more than 2 routes while inside a base to get to the enemy flag.

Look at the successful TFC pub server CTF maps for example: 2fort, well, crossover, casbah, and badlands. Each map had 2 routes through the battlements, then 2 routes in the bases themselves. The best thing about these maps is there were no nuisances, except badlands with a battlements a bit too long.

I really have to disagree with some of this as a long time player of TFC and FF and who never really got into CTF. I'd say as a new player, what I would want from a game is ACTION and maybe some cool stuff to look at. If it's not an interesting experience getting to the flag, it's not going to be especially fun for new players. Also about 90% of pub CTF games with new players involve yard DM'ing, so how fun THAT aspect is also factors into it. Here's my evaluation of some of the CTF maps from someone not really into CTF:

2fort - not bad, especially with the visual improvements, you get to the yard very fast and a lot of fighting on the bridge can be fun.

aardvark - Good looking yard, but too big for a lot of fighting there. Can be fun if you're sniping or know how to get across the yard quickly. Side route can have some good espionage possibilities.

Badlands - visually awesome once you get outside. Corridors are a damn maze. Relatively fun if you can get outside your base to some fighting.

casbah - visually more interesting, though it usually feels like a hike before you get to any action.

congestus - very easy to get to the yard or other base and get to action fast, generally enjoy this one

crossover - hate everything about it, I always quit when this comes up. Concrete corridor city, changed from the desert theme in TFC to the cold snowy theme which I don't think works as well, bridge where all the fighting used to be seems to be missing from the FF version, somewhat confusing route, not much action.

destroy - pretty good, visually kind of drab, but very small map means you get to fighting quickly

dropdown - nice visuals on the yard, can get to fighting relatively quickly, but a total maze if you're actually going for the flag.

monkey - great visuals in the yard, fair amount of fighting, though not my favorite for some reason

openfire - nice lighting / yard, very easy to get to the action, generally good action and fun

shutdown2 - kind of a mix. Interiors are more concrete corridors, but yard looks nice and can have a decent amount of fighting

well - not that fun unless you're sniping. Visually not very engaging. Contains lots of plain, concrete corridors with a concrete yard to boot. I never especially liked this one in TFC either.

xpress - my favorite CTF map for someone not that into CTF. CONSTANT action, fun watching enemies fall off the edge, fun as hell blasting over as a demoman and raising hell.

If you want CTF to have more public appeal, I would host maps where you get to the action as fast as possible, not the ones that may have the best nuanced CTF games. The thing to remember is that successful TFC CTF severs had all-dustbowl or all avanti/warpath servers running 24/7 right next to them. FF doesn't have the same kinds of numbers, so if you want to cater to some of the would-be AvD crowd with CTF maps, they may not be the same maps.

hlstriker · 07-02-2011, 11:17 PM

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