concmap5 released!

[public_slots_free]

^Something like that probably wont happen. The first thing you need to worry about in any concmap is the jumps. That is the most important part of the map. It doesn't matter how nice it looks if the jumps suck. Once you have the jumps down, how are you going to justify some of them with real things. There is no good way to do it.

Sure you could figure out some of them, maybe a really high jump is a skyscraper but then when you get up there, why are you there and what do you do afterwards? Seriously, why is everyone trying to say that concmaps need to be more "realistic" You jump on a grenade and fly off. We aren't dealing with realistic content so there is no reason to try and make it that way.

Concing also poses a lot of problems because of player ingenuity. You are constantly having to limit a player in a concmap because a player can skip obstacles with the use of conc grenades. Look at things like nateobot in the original concmap5. People would do a triple conc from the bottom and skip all the platforms completely. These are the types of things you are going to run into if you try and make a realistic open environment. How do you limit this stuff then? You cramp them in or use teleporters. Cramping sucks for public servers and teleporters take away from the "realism"

No matter the map, you are never going to justify the "why are we doing this" because concmaps are essentially a mod of FF (especially now with LUA). Sure, you can get some story thrown in if the mapper feels so inclined but in the end, the ONLY reason people are playing is to do the jumps.

You may think quality over quantity but I am totally happy with and will play anyone's map even if it is just rock/grass. Especially right now with FF so dry with concmaps. Look at when a new system comes out, everyone says "wait for the later games when the devs know the system better" or "thats a launch title it's graphics aren't as good" How is that any different than right now? People want maps to play now, not later.

The bottom line is a good fun map is good no matter what it looks like. Zelda: A Link To The Past is still amazing and its not even 3D. I've grown tired of hearing the same crap over and over "why the rock/grass i hate it" and I am not talking about just this map, i am talking about anyone that complains about concmaps that use even the most basic of texture schemes.

/rant

[KubeDawg]

I'm not sure I agree with you public, although letting one's imagination take them wherever, in the already made concmaps might be better(imagining you're in this super secret complex and you wake up with this new ability to use conc grenades to your advantage), I could see more bits of the map looking, not more realistic, but more practical. Anyone can muster up a specific jump that can be easy or extremely difficult. After all, that's what a concmap is. A series of jumps. How one interacts with the game throughout that is another story.

Say you have to drop down that skyscraper after you get up there(you need to get up there to be able to turn off lasers or something) and you have to dropconc your way back to the bottom, but the bottom is untouchable, so you hafta shoot yourself back into the starting position after falling from a high distance. Once you reach this new area, you can find out more about what you need to do.

It's rather simple to come up with an idea for a concmap, because you already know what you are going to be doing in general. It's those minor details of a map that makes it stand out more than other maps.

[totoro^vi]

The realistic concmap thing has been done before in TFC.

As a whole I agree with PSF though. Even the well-crafted maps don't make that much sense as certain jump designs don't lend themselves well to linking or realistic floor plans, precision jumps are a good example of this.

Also, from a mapping standpoint the time it takes to make a conc map like that is enormous. People seem to forget that most concmaps (not precision maps, mostly) cover a huge amount of area and putting enough detail into it to make it realistic is mindnumbing. I already spend dozens of hours on mapping and I'm not even close to that level of detail. Furthermore, we don't have the luxury of making half a map, copy / pasting / rotating it, then changing red textures to blue with a few minor detail adjustments.

The other thing that prevents this is concmaps tend to have a high turnover rate and after people beat them they prefer to play something new -- there are exception to this obviously but for the most part people like to try out new maps.

Bottom line is the concing genre doesn't go well with those maps, it can be done, but it's usually more trouble than it's worth.

[Dr.Satan]

I have to agree with totoro here. When I jump into a conc map all I'm really looking for is there to be a lot of jumps and it not to be impossible. you could have orange walls and a black floor for all i care as long as i have plenty of jumps to play on i'm good! Story lines and objectives and stuff are well and good, but in the end it's all the same. As long as it's hard but not impossible i will play it. It doesn't have to look good especially this early on, i just want more of them!

[Lt Llama]

I think you have to make a differance between implementing a story line to a concmap, as you sketched it, and make a good looking map. A concmap is like a stage with a center, which is the actual room for the play, and the props framing the stage. To frame your jumps with something nice to look at is in no way a bad thing, and doesnt influence the jump designs.

I really don't understand where the whole rock and grass design came from, concmap_r? The popularity of that map was insane, and became the definition of what a concmap should look like. With some minor exceptions, this fashion survived from 1999 until today. And why? Most of those maps where made long after TFC was concidered very dead. Noone cared about looks as long as there was something new to conc on. It was also a part of your carrier as a concer, to make your own map. Well, not really true as I think the best concmaps for TFC are probably the ones done the past 2 years. They biuld on traditions and the fact that the remains of the community had become very very good at concing.

There are hundreds of grass and rock maps now. And then there are some maps standing out. I don't remember the grass and rock maps mostly, but I do remember the names of the good looking maps, and also who made them.

During all this time FF has been in development, and the forum active, I have not seen anything, except ff_charybda released which resembles the quality of the ctf submissions.

I know I pushed for ANYTHING to conc on when FF was released, but I never meant that would set the standard.

You don't have to spend 1 year making a good looking concmap for FF, just use some of the features of the source engine, like displacements, props and everything else. Maybe play around with all new entities and make new kind of obstacles to pass. And also some sort of fresh texture themes.

[zSilver_Fox]

I'm late, but after talking to Rax about this as well... adam had absolutely no rights to the map whatsoever. He had no idea if PSF was going to remake it. That's like me taking one of his maps from TFC and remaking it, then complaning when he requests what's rightly his.

Like the map, I do miss the lack of sound with the ball though .

[Tyrant]

*cracks knuckles* <- no not knk.

Hard maps usually have detail with texture changes, fancy lighting, weird shaped/curved walls (concmap_ice3_r #3) Fancy end of jump entity work. By fancy I mean cool ways to open up a portal to take you to your next jump.

Easy maps have more room to work with as your jumps are not nearly as complex. So you can detail pretty much anything. Some jumps on concmap5 could have been detailed but some could have not. It's just concmaps.

Lets face it a walls that pop out of know where with ups and downs, left and rights is not realistic landscapes. So you either have to A). step outside of realistic architecture or B). try to add some but look like a fool.

However... Once you step out of the bounds of realistic architecture a whole new field of detail opens up. Crazy fades, fucked up windows, Lots of borders, random water environments, weird laboratories, insane texture themes.. Pretty much whatever looks cool while passing through a concmap.

[zSilver_Fox]

I think that Blackeh pulled texturing off quite well with ice3_r... has he also retired?

PS Rax, I want ff_cze!

[How00187]

Adam... the original gangsta.

[Adam-g1]

Good lord silver_fox, just fucking drop it already. I think everyone knows what I did wasn't exactly the right thing to do. What point are you further trying to prove?

[pen]

drop it like a prolapse

[EquilibriuM]

yea really drop all this bs and start making some mapz Bee-Otches!

[Loader]

please bring back rax!

[How00187]

Where is Rax? If you want him to come back just have Adam remake cm_rax.